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At The Back => The Dressing Room => Topic started by: MrBump on August 06, 2014, 08:54:58 AM

Title: Scottish Debate
Post by: MrBump on August 06, 2014, 08:54:58 AM
Anyone watch the Salmond/Darling debate last night?

You couldn't get two more different politicians.  Nothing new was talked about, no new ground.  But it was interesting to see the tactics taken by each.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: blue on August 06, 2014, 02:40:13 PM
from the bits I've seen, Salmond comes across as a loud mouthed, obnoxious bully.  Just my impression.  He does seem fixated on the "idea" of an independent Scotland, while using bluster to cover the fact that he doesn't really know how it would work.  Sort of "I don't care what problems there are, I just want it."
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: MrBump on August 06, 2014, 03:04:11 PM
from the bits I've seen, Salmond comes across as a loud mouthed, obnoxious bully.  Just my impression.  He does seem fixated on the "idea" of an independent Scotland, while using bluster to cover the fact that he doesn't really know how it would work.  Sort of "I don't care what problems there are, I just want it."

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought.  I'm pro Union, but as a soft southerner I guess I'm irrelevant to the debate.  But there are things that I really DON'T want, particularly a currency union with an independant Scotland.

There was just too much ducking and diving from Salmond, I thought.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Philly Q on August 06, 2014, 06:02:18 PM
Although the "Yes" campaign are still behind in the polls, Alex Salmond should really have an easy job of it in the debates - all I've ever heard him say is how wonderful everything is going to be in an independent Scotland, without needing to (or being able to) actually prove anything.  And it's simple for him to dismiss all the "No" arguments as negative and pessimistic.

Despite all that, Darling seems to have done pretty well in the first debate, from what little I've seen and read about.

The currency argument annoys me.  Salmond says it's Scotland's pound as much as it is the rest of the UK's - which is true - but he wants Scotland to leave the union.  It's like splitting up with someone then expecting to be able to come back whenever you fancy to use the kitchen or watch TV.  I realise that's oversimplifying it a bit.....

I can't even begin to imagine how complicated it will be unravelling various elements of the UK infrastructure if the Scots actually do vote for independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: juansolo on August 07, 2014, 08:52:29 AM
Salmond wants to go down in Scottish history as the man who gave back Scotland it's freedom. That worries me as he doesn't appear to be thinking of the consequences as much has his own personal agenda (self-serving politician in it for his own gains shocker).

Where I stand on it is thus. If it can be made to work and the Scots vote for it. Then good luck to them. But they need to sever all ties to the UK to do this. That includes financial ones. It means Scotland joining the Euro asap (I'm not sure how quickly that could be brought in) and it would have serious ramifications to a lot of business in Scotland. This cannot be overlooked.

I suspect Scotland is better in the union than out, and I can't help but feel that leaving it would be a catastrophic mistake that comes mostly down to generations of anti-English indoctrination. BUT, if as a majority that's what they want, then that is what they should get. I very much doubt there'll be any half measures regarding the currency, and any thinking there will be is delusional.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Jimmy E Moorby on August 07, 2014, 09:01:50 AM
I can see why Salmond would want to leave the UK so Scotland can make its own decisions.  The Tory's will always be awful and be anti-scotland and the last Labour government might not have been 'that bad' had it not gone around the world starting wars and causing unrest...some thing few wanted.  Having said that at least  in the UK you can vote for for the party you think are the lesser evil but then in the same breath say he wants to join the EU where you cant vote for any one as such and you just have to be in it and always play by their strict rules. 

At least in our Country we don't have a load of out and proud Nazi's and Far Right National Front Parties representing us but then again i'm guessing those countries in the EU voted those people in to make a point.....they doint want to be in it but arent allowed to leave!  Welcome to 2014 !

EDIT - 100 years on from World War 1 and we've learnt **** all
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: MrBump on August 26, 2014, 06:51:41 AM
Well, I thought that the debate last night sucked.

Both parties were being disingenuous (more so than usual), there were blatant lies and mis-truthes.  Really a shocking display of bad politics.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: JDC on August 26, 2014, 01:57:33 PM
I would ignore all the biased politicians and look at what economists say, that said I've only heard the opinion of 1 economist who crunched the numbers and his conclusion was there were no major gain or loss in GDP although a greater sample size of economists would be a more accurate representation of the available data
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: dvorak on August 27, 2014, 10:56:01 AM
As an outsider looking in who is interested in economics I feel that the newspaper The Economist have written several good articles on the subject:

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21606869-independent-scotland-would-be-rich-country-terrible-prospects-costly-solitude?zid=307&ah=5e80419d1bc9821ebe173f4f0f060a07

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21606832-why-we-hope-people-scotland-will-vote-stay-union-dont-leave-us-way

Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: JDC on August 27, 2014, 06:38:07 PM
Problem with those kind of articles is they mostly are anecdotes of the GDP equation, that's not important, the number at the end of the equation is

Obviously there are a lot of unknown factors in the equation but best and worse cases with margins of error (probably best represented in graphs) from an independent non-bias source would most interest me, granted it'll never happen
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: dvorak on August 29, 2014, 01:36:22 PM
Problem with those kind of articles is they mostly are anecdotes of the GDP equation, that's not important, the number at the end of the equation is
So what number should you put into the equation? Some overly optimistic cherry picked numbers like Mr Salmond is doing?

Did you read the articles, there was a lot more arguments based on a lot more than GDP numbers.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: nfe on September 01, 2014, 04:58:24 PM
I suspect Scotland is better in the union than out, and I can't help but feel that leaving it would be a catastrophic mistake that comes mostly down to generations of anti-English indoctrination.

It's nothing of the sort, and it's down to the staggering arrogance of South-East English MPs at Westminster that it's ever painted as anything of the sort. Scotland would happily take Northern Ireland, Wales, and pretty much all of England above Nottingham with it. Hell, the ideal would probably be a vote to eject the South East.

Quote
I very much doubt there'll be any half measures regarding the currency, and any thinking there will be is delusional.

Not having a currency union would hurt rUK. There's almost no chance they'd knock it back when it came to it. It has no negative repurcussions on rUK, and it means they wouldn't have to take all they debt on themselves. That said, it's not actually the prefered option of two of the three parties in the Yes Campaign, nor of the campaigns chairperson, or many of those who'll vote yes.

I would ignore all the biased politicians and look at what economists say

Why? It isn't an economic argument, as much as Better Together and The SNP think it is, it's an ideological and moral one.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: JDC on September 01, 2014, 05:07:10 PM
For me it is, everyone is different though
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: nfe on September 01, 2014, 05:15:58 PM
It would be a sad, sad indictment of Scotland were it to become the first ever nation to embrace or reject its independence on financial grounds. Almost as sad as if it became the first ever nation to reject it's independence!
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: MrBump on September 03, 2014, 03:01:04 PM
Ah, welcome back, NFE!!!

Economics does matter; currency does matter.  I know what you're saying regarding it being a philosophical argument, but you can't hide from the financials, because it's that very point which will impact people the most.

As an Englishman (yes, the worst type of Englishman - one born and raised (mostly) in the South East), I don't want my economic prosperity tied to a neighboring country which has no compulsion to adhere to sensible economic policy. 

I hate the thought of Scotland leaving Britain.  However, if that's what they vote for, that's fine.  But I don't want an independent Scotland bankrupting the rest of Britain.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: nfe on September 03, 2014, 04:19:51 PM
Ah, welcome back, NFE!!!

Cheers!

Quote
Economics does matter; currency does matter.  I know what you're saying regarding it being a philosophical argument, but you can't hide from the financials, because it's that very point which will impact people the most.

I couldn't agree less, to be honest. It's the point which will impact people the most most if that's your worldview. But I'll notice a more socially left leaning society far more than I will being a few hundred quid better or worse off a year. I'll notice the reduction in bigoted protests and the hounding of immigrants by predominantly English people coming up on buses to pretend to have a Scottish presence and the marches by idiots stuck in the late 17th century singing about killing Catholics and loving their queen. I'll notice the terrorism warnings drop in a country no longer tethered to Westminster.

And over time, I'll notice the leveling out of the wealth gap that is speedily widening in the UK.

If I'm worse of for a few years (or decades), I think that's a fair price, and one I don't anticipate being very aware of. And on the basis of the general feeling here outside of the mainstream media, I don't think I'm in the minority.

Of course, I don't think we'd be noticeably worse off anyway.

Quote
As an Englishman (yes, the worst type of Englishman - one born and raised (mostly) in the South East), I don't want my economic prosperity tied to a neighboring country which has no compulsion to adhere to sensible economic policy. 

I hate the thought of Scotland leaving Britain.  However, if that's what they vote for, that's fine.  But I don't want an independent Scotland bankrupting the rest of Britain.

I don't think we should be tied economically either. Neither do two of the three political parties in the Yes Campaign. But I'd be amazed if we weren't. When it comes to it, Westminster will push for a currency union to save the transaction costs that would hit English, Welsh and Northern Irish businesses, as well as Scottish ones. And in the short term it'll be the simplest option for Scotland too, so nobody will fight it on either side.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Dmoney on September 03, 2014, 06:55:13 PM

I'd be sad to see Scotland go, but then who can blame anyone for wanting to disconnect from westminster whatever the theoretical consequences? Selfishly I'd be worried about England having more and more Conservative governments if Scotland leaves. Any ideas how moving to Scotland would work post a Yes vote?
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: nfe on September 03, 2014, 07:21:01 PM
We'd almost certainly be in the EU (whatever the scaremongers say). So to move here you'd just have to, well, move here.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: dvorak on September 13, 2014, 11:21:50 AM
Final leader before the election:

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21616957-ditching-union-would-be-mistake-scotland-and-tragedy-country-it-leaves

An interesting read to say the least
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Twinfan on September 13, 2014, 04:57:08 PM
I'm with PhillyQ and Juansolo.  If the 'Yes' vote wins, then I'll be interested to see how Scotland manages to sort itself out without guaranteed immediate EU membership or the pound.  From what I've seen, Salmond is living in cloud cuckoo land and refuses to accept that other people can quite legitimately refuse his requests.  Plus if all these large firms are re-locating to England there isn't going to be a lot left to fund the new country, so finances will have to be worse than they are now.

If I was Scottish, I would be worried that Scotland might turn into the Haiti of the rUK's Dominican Republic...
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Ian Price on September 13, 2014, 06:28:46 PM
I have no opinion on this (politics isn't my thing) other than Salmond appears to be a bit of a c0ck.

Quite a lot of people at work getting VERY worked up about it - on both sides of the fence.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: MrBump on September 15, 2014, 06:54:49 AM
People both sides of the border should be worried.  It's a decision that will have a global impact, not least upon British financials.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Philly Q on September 15, 2014, 08:54:05 AM
As someone who has Radio 5 Live on pretty much all day every day, except when I'm at work, I'm looking forward to the end of this week.  I've got Scottish Independence Debate fatigue.  It's just endless hours of interviews with politicians and people in the street, all saying things I've heard a thousand times before.  Let's just get it over with now.

Of course, once the results are announced on Friday there'll be a whole new series of discussions.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Ian Price on September 15, 2014, 10:27:50 AM
A word that I've not heard before has crept it's way onto the radio and into the news over the last few days. The 'neverendum'. How exciting does that sound! I'm not even close the debate and I'm really really bored by it all.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Johnny Mac on September 19, 2014, 04:50:45 AM
If it's a yes vote one of the things I've noticed is that Labour will lose 49 seats. No champagne socialists. That's got to be a good thing surely  :smiley:
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Jimmy E Moorby on September 23, 2014, 02:50:14 PM
I see it was a victory for the NWO then as expected  :evil:

Question is who to vote for at the next general election?

Conservatives - The nasty toff party
Labour - The posiibly well meaning but ultimately a bunch of IDIOTS
Lib Dems - The spineless party
The Green Party - LOL
UKIP - Probably equally as nasty as the tory's but not as posh.

What terrifies me is that clown Boris Johnson seems to fancy himself as a future PM.  Could you imagine?!

I suppose we're all lucky to live in what is the best country in the world but I find in frustrating it could be perfect it if wasnt run by (For the most part) mp's will zero life experience.

Good old Goerge Osbourne only ever had a job folding towels in BHS and now he's in charge of the economy and selling off royal mail to his best mates for peanuts.  That lot must be laughing at us all day in day out
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Twinfan on September 23, 2014, 02:59:09 PM
The coalition generally seems to be doing alright to me, I just hope labour don't get in again next time.  Not sure they would they as Mililband isn't exactly the best leader out there...
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Jimmy E Moorby on September 23, 2014, 04:14:41 PM
The coalition generally seems to be doing alright to me, I just hope labour don't get in again next time.  Not sure they would they as Mililband isn't exactly the best leader out there...

Ed Milliband isnt even as good as his brother and only got in because he was everyones 2nd choice!

I think this tory government (because thats what it is) is the worst government i've ever known.  Also before I go on a rant i'm not arguing with you I respect anyones opinions as long as theyre sincere.

For me this government is more than any thing corrupt.

-Selling off royal mail for nothing to their mates.

-Dismantling the NHS on the sly

-Trying to privatize the police force and fortunately failing miserably (Seriously what kind of a headcase thinks making a profit out of justice and safety is acceptable.  Probably those headcases behind big iron gates with lots of money!).

Also the big and simple one failing to get a grip on immigration and by that I dont mean stop johnny foreigner I mean quality control like normal countries have.  What the tory's do at the moment (And what labour and lib dems would do) is discriminate against non-eu immigrants to keep the figures down because there are no bodrer restrictions within the eu.
How is it acceptable  the worst of the worst can come here from all over europe and we get no say in it?  Seriously only UKIP seems to want to sort this mess out which I find very frustrating.  Seems the majority of people want quality control but the big 3 dont want to listen probably because it drives down wages.

Whats so hard about having a border control and not letting in serious criminals and checking they can support themselves at a very basic level?  For years if you hold this point of view any one who disagreed only had to shout 'racist' and hope youd back off but now its all getting a bit silly.  I have no problem with any race or country but we have enough idiots born and bred in this country without letting the dregs of other countries in too.

The only thing I like about the tory's is the sensible move to scruitinize benefit payments.  Not saying theyre always right but labour's '$%&# it have some free money, free house and your bum wiped and dont worry about personal responsibility' attitude was very annoying.  Labour used to be the party of the working class and clearly theyve lost their way and become a bunch of champagne socialists.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Twinfan on September 23, 2014, 04:20:56 PM
A lot of the UK laws/policies/practices were set up by previous governments remember, so you can't just blame the folks at the top right now - they have to deal with legacy issues that they're inherited.

EU laws (e.g. border control) apply to us as we are in the EU.  The issue you're talking about will affect every EU country, it's not directly our government's fault but a result of being in the EU (which has other benefits I assume).
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Jimmy E Moorby on September 23, 2014, 04:40:04 PM
Well the things ive mentioned are all down to the tory's.  Like I say its more the corruption that gets me not their policies because you cant please everybody. This EU business it seems the labour, cons, and lib dems are all mad for it though.

I'm very anti-EU and I see no benefits to it.  Supposedly the benefits are easier trading between european countires which sounds good but im pretty sure we dont need a european parliament for that and also so all european countries can be on the same page re laws and human rights etc which frankly is also a load of tosh.  In our country we have the best legal system and whilst the police will never be popular theyre FAR better than in any other country in the world so I dont see why we need input from any other countries.

The UK has the power to tell them EU how many beans make five because lets face it Germnay and the UK are the most powerful countires but theres seems to be some sort of weird agenda with the whole thing.  You only have to look at the whole sorry situation in the Ukraine which the EU didn't cause but in a way it did.  Trying to expand your undemocratic empire onto Russia's doorstep is wreckless at best.  But dont worry 'the eu' is taking sides with the Ukraine so im sure well have no problems taking on russia when it all kicks off!  Those russians are pretty good at fighting and I cant see how we could best them in any way?!

The irony of the situation is the EU and the west is accusing Russia or trying to revert back to soviet times when in fact it is all of the european countires who are being run by a european parliament which doesnt respect democracy and is full of nationalists, nazis and national front members simply because countries dont want to be involved in it and therefore vote in the most extreme parties as a protest.  In our country UKIP got the majority but thankfully theyre not a racist party regardless of what you think of them
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Twinfan on September 23, 2014, 04:46:38 PM
I know very little about politics, so I'll drop out of this now.

What I do know is that I'd rather live in England than anywhere else, and I currently have a nice lifestyle, so I don't think it's too bad to be honest!
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Jimmy E Moorby on September 23, 2014, 05:09:46 PM
I know very little about politics, so I'll drop out of this now.

What I do know is that I'd rather live in England than anywhere else, and I currently have a nice lifestyle, so I don't think it's too bad to be honest!

I agree this is the best country in the world be far I guess all I mean is it doesnt mean it cant be better or that we dont have to be on our guard so it gets worse  :smiley:

Funnily enough I just had the wannabe lib dem local mp just knock on my door giving it the 'i'm just a local lad born and bred' routine.
Be funny if it wasnt so tragic!
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: nfe on September 28, 2014, 09:44:13 AM
Plus if all these large firms are re-locating to England there isn't going to be a lot left to fund the new country, so finances will have to be worse than they are now.

No companies were ever relocating and none ever even threatened it. The mainstream media did cheerfully report that they were, but the said companies' own press releases resolutely denied it. All that was ever mooted was the transfer of the brass plaque registrations because they're obliged to be in the same country as their lender of last resort. As it happened, this would have been a positive for Scotland, keeping, as they stated, all jobs and functions located as they were already, whilst removing all liability from Scotland.

This, along with the Pledge, which has already proven to be bogus, and the Oil Is Running Out Imminently narrative, which has also already proven to be bogus, and mostly the lie sold to pensioners about losing their pensions, which even the government denied, is what lost the election, and as a result the mainstream media is quickly becoming a Sun-in-Liverpool-level pariah even amongst No-voters.

S'alright though, we'll be an independent country soon enough. The generation that killed it are getting very old.

In our country we have the best legal system and whilst the police will never be popular theyre FAR better than in any other country in the world so I dont see why we need input from any other countries.

How are you demonstrating this objectively?

Quote
The UK has the power to tell them EU how many beans make five because lets face it Germnay and the UK are the most powerful countires but theres seems to be some sort of weird agenda with the whole thing.

It's not 1945. The UK is not a superpower. We are not the second most powerful state in the EU. France is.

Quote
You only have to look at the whole sorry situation in the Ukraine which the EU didn't cause but in a way it did.  Trying to expand your undemocratic empire onto Russia's doorstep is wreckless at best.  But dont worry 'the eu' is taking sides with the Ukraine so im sure well have no problems taking on russia when it all kicks off!  Those russians are pretty good at fighting and I cant see how we could best them in any way?!

The EU has nothing to do with the situation in Ukraine.

Quote
The irony of the situation is the EU and the west is accusing Russia or trying to revert back to soviet times when in fact it is all of the european countires who are being run by a european parliament which doesnt respect democracy and is full of nationalists, nazis and national front members...

'Full of'? Hardly, they're far, far outsripped by the liberal leftists and centrists. Hell, in the last EU election the leftists increased their representation by THIRTEEN TIMES what the Euroskeptics did. In the simultaneous English and Welsh council elections UKIP's vote share dropped by six points.

Quote
In our country UKIP got the majority but thankfully theyre not a racist party regardless of what you think of them

Except, of course, that they are. Or at least are coincidentally populated by racists.


EDIT: I find it horribly depressing, that I remember a time when even though the oil was running out fast, at least the country was vibrant, energised and upbeat, we weren't going to war, we were getting new powers no matter what happened, and the NHS was bulletproof? Now the opposite of all that is true.

Last Wednesday was a great time to be alive.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: b.gandt on December 23, 2020, 03:25:53 PM
Interesting discussion as viewed from my POV as a Yank.

How things have changed since this discussion!  A poster trying to imagine Boris Johnson as PM, and now...but, of course, we've taken the cake in that department, having had the now outgoing POTUS that we've had for the last four years.  Then there's the state of Brexit in December of 2020, and season both sides of the Atlantic with a pandemic.

Jaysus!
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: Johnny Mac on December 25, 2020, 04:52:15 AM
Interesting discussion as viewed from my POV as a Yank.

How things have changed since this discussion!  A poster trying to imagine Boris Johnson as PM, and now...but, of course, we've taken the cake in that department, having had the now outgoing POTUS that we've had for the last four years.  Then there's the state of Brexit in December of 2020, and season both sides of the Atlantic with a pandemic.

Jaysus!

Yes things have changed dramatically in the UK and online. Iíve got to say that these
Threads stared to kill the vibe in this great forum.
Merry Christmas mate.
Title: Re: Scottish Debate
Post by: b.gandt on December 31, 2020, 06:59:39 PM
Interesting discussion as viewed from my POV as a Yank.

How things have changed since this discussion!  A poster trying to imagine Boris Johnson as PM, and now...but, of course, we've taken the cake in that department, having had the now outgoing POTUS that we've had for the last four years.  Then there's the state of Brexit in December of 2020, and season both sides of the Atlantic with a pandemic.

Jaysus!

Yes things have changed dramatically in the UK and online. I’ve got to say that these
Threads stared to kill the vibe in this great forum.
Merry Christmas mate.

I can understand that,  For me, nothing ruins a guitar forum more than American politics.

Best wishes in the new year!