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Author Topic: Cab upgrade  (Read 9549 times)

CommonCourtesy

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Cab upgrade
« on: August 28, 2017, 02:22:37 PM »
After playing in a new band and playing more regular shows that require me to supply my own cab which is a Marshall 4x12 with 2 V30's and 2 G12T-75's in an X formation I have noticed it is this that is the weak link in my tone. My head is a 6505+ and I use a LP studio with a Bareknuckle Nailbomb in the bridge tuned to drop b. I also use a Maxon OD808 on the lead channel to try and tighten things up a bit and give it more bite.

Whilst the Marshall is better with the 2 V30's installed I can hear its still very muddy, farty and lacks cut. Maybe to do with the lightweight material those cabs are made of?

Now I could go and put 2 more V30's in there but I don't think it'd make it any better to be honest.

The other guitarist uses an Orange PPC412 and he has more cut and bite to his sound, probably helps he's running a Line 6 Pod Pro into a Laney Ironheart for his pre-amp.

I could get a PPC412 too, as I've played my 6505+ through his cab and I do like it, though Orange V30's can be known to be a bit fizzy.
Mesa 4x12's would be the dream pairing but at £1485 a pop (I'm from the UK) its not something you can just decide to buy off the cuff right now.

I want something with more tighter low end, rich mids and a clearer high end. Zilla make custom cabs but I'm not sure on the woods they use and what it'd sound like.

Suggestions and advice?

Dave Sloven

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 03:54:29 PM »
I have two cabs, both 412s with four V30s.  Both have the Chinese V30s and both are broken in and both are 16 ohms

One of them is an Orange PPC412 like your friend's

The other is a cheap Ashton 412 made from particle board that came with V30s.  I basically bought it for less than the price of the speakers

The main differences between them are that the Orange has less highs and tighter lows, whereas the Ashton has less mids.  I tend to adjust the resonance and presence to adjust for whichever cab I am using.  For live contexts it is sufficient and the sound is similar.  Sometimes I stack them and cut the impedance on my amp to 8 ohms.  I put the Ashton on top of the Orange.  That sounds pretty decent.

My advice would be to replace the T75s with V30s.  There really is no advantage to the X pattern V30/T75 thing with Peavey 6505 series amps.  They like V30 412s. That's really all I can say.  Look around for a better box if you find one for the right place and then swap the V30s into that.  Sometimes you can find Peavey cabs that are marine ply birch out cheap.  A lot of the Marshall cabs are garbage.  It depends on the model.  But I find it hard to believe they could be worse than my Ashton, and I seem to get by with that for live work and band practice.  I never use the Orange for band practice, only recording and those rare occasions when I am playing a gig on the ground floor and want to use a full stack.  I NEVER take the Orange up stairs.  It is very heavy and awkward and in a live environment nobody notices the difference between it and the Ashton.
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CommonCourtesy

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 04:01:41 PM »
I think I remember you talking about your Ashton cab with V30's, could I get one in the UK perhaps? But yeah if I decided to keep rolling with the Marshall I would have put another 2 V30's in there but cos the cab itself is so light I think this is a deciding factor. From the sheer weight of a Mesa 4x12 (I was lucky enough to play my 6505+ through one on a recent tour when one of the other bands kindly let me borrow it) you know its going to be a good cab. Same with Orange.

I did a show on Saturday and whilst the soundguy let us turn up loud it was so fizzy and unfocused. I turned the resonance down to like 4 and raised the presence a bit. It seemed to control the muddyness a little.

I am lucky that in this band we have a big ass splitter van and a handy team of extra bodies to lift stuff. Also I can store this cab at the HQ which is the guitarist with the PPC412's house.

Dave Sloven

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 11:15:19 PM »
There are mods that you can make to the Marshall cabs to make them better.  I think the problem is with the backboard

If you have the money by all means buy another cab but remember that someone has to lift that Orange cab.  The angled cab might be lighter.

If you can find an ENGL Pro 412 for a good price you might really like one of those.  Killer cab, very focused sound

EDIT: have a look at this link. http://www.rig-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87283
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 11:22:19 PM by Dave Sloven »
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CommonCourtesy

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 12:54:57 PM »
I think I will get a new cab as Marshall's in general don't get on well with modern high gain amps so I can mod all day but it won't beat a heavier built wood with V30s.

Transporting won't be an issue as we have a van and there's a small team to carry stuff. It will be stored by the van at the house so it won't be hassle to keep lugging it around back and forth,  before I used to use my car to take my Marshall which was just about doable on my own.

I have heard about Engl but they're not as easy to source apparently. It's only a hundred or more than an Orange I think.

Dave Sloven

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 01:25:03 PM »
If you listen to this comparison you will hear that Vintage 30 cabs sound a lot more like each other than they sound like other cabs by the same manufacturer.  Vintage 30s have a very specific sound

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt_X-LGckZw

I think any cab with four V30s will probably work for you

Where they differ seems to be in the character of the bottom end (which seems to be affected more by volume and stiffness of the cab construction) and the 'directionality' of the cabs (you can't really tell this from the video).

Straight front cabs tend to be more directional than angled cabs

Front loaded speakers tend to sound a bit different from rear loaded speakers (not sure how to describe this difference)

Wheels tend to make the cab less bassy than one that sits directly on the floor.

Open back cabs are less directional and tight (I definitely suggest closed back for you)

I think the straight-front Orange PPC412 is an excellent match for a Peavey for all of these reasons if you don't have problems with transport

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CommonCourtesy

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2017, 01:55:29 PM »
I definitely notice the V30s as it's a lot tighter and bassier. The others sound a little woofy and I don't like it! I had to turn the presence knob down on my 6505+ to attempt to tighten up some bass and it was manageable but nowhere near what a Mesa or Orange would sound.

I've seen an Orange angled cab not sure if it's the same price though. Might help with monitoring whilst on stage.

Ah that will explain a lot, my Marshall has wheels so it doesn't resonate as much. Though having the wheels makes it a hell of a lot easier to take in and out venues that don't have 4 flights of stairs.

I'm leaning towards an Orange, if the other guitarist can manage taking it around then another one wouldn't be a problem haha.

Though I did ponder if I used a different cab brand would it separate the tones a bit more, i guess the guitars and heads will make it different anyway.

Dave Sloven

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2017, 07:41:39 AM »
Ernie Ball sell a kit with removable wheels

That's what I have fitted to my Ashton cab, but I could also fit them to my Orange cab if I wanted to drill it

You can see how to install those casters in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgWqGtB0a7A
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 07:43:11 AM by Dave Sloven »
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CommonCourtesy

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 03:23:44 PM »
Hmmm I'll have to look into that, or a wheeled trolley which we sometimes use to get it from the back of the house into the van. It a plastic cheap little thing that won't last long if we're touring!

Putting wheels on it permanently will affect the bottom end (excuse the pun) though wouldn't it? If its not stationed on the floor it won't resonate as much.

Dave Sloven

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2017, 04:03:20 AM »
The Orange cabs have long skids under them that connect with the floor.  When the removable wheels are removed it will sit on those.  You might need to cut the skids down slightly, depending on where you mount the wheels.

Alternatively you can carry a dolly with you to shows if you have room in your vehicle
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CommonCourtesy

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2017, 02:24:33 PM »
Yeah I might get something like this:



If we have the van then we'd definitely have space in it.

Also tone wise, the sound of the band is predominantly metalcore but looking to steer towards more rock.

This band is a good ball park on what we would like the guitar tones to be similar to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjHBvUFSlBA

I believe they use Orange cabs too but Marshall JCM800/900 heads. I like the crunchiness and tight tone though.

I don't think I'd achieve it with anything else other than V30 speakers.

Yellowjacket

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 08:49:55 PM »
You can mod the Marshall cab.

I suggest swapping the G12T 75s for a pair of G12k 100s, G12H 75s, or V30s.  The X pattern is not something I favour.  I prefer to pair like speakers on either side of a cab so that it sounds more stereo and 3D.  I think it is the G12T 75s that are farting out and contributing mud.  You need tight speakers because with metal tones, speaker distortion is undesirable.  If you can find who sells OEM mesa parts, you can order 2 OEM Mesa V30s.  They are similar to the chinese v30s but they have a smoother top end and are less fizzy.  I have a Mesa v30 and a Chinese v30 in a 2 x 12 and they sound great together.

To mod the Marshall, if you have a mediocum of wordworking ability, you can put a ported baffle in the centre of the cab to break up standing waves.  It will tighten up the lows and the cab overall.

Basically, the ported baffle runs from the speaker baffle to the back panel around the middle of the cab and it has five holes cut in it.  Look up the Mills Acoustic cab interior pictures to get an idea of how it looks.  They sadly went out of business, but I built an O.S. 2 x 12 with one of these baffles and it is super clear and tight sounding. 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/so-many-guitars-so-little-time/441174d1420584118-damping-speaker-cabs-insideview.jpg

The back panel will then fasten onto this centre baffle which will reinforce and tighten the cab.  The ported baffle will break up standing waves in the cab which will reduce the mud. 
Additionally, you can seal all the wood joints inside the cab with silicon which will also tighten up the sound.  Marshall cabs sound good so I think the speaker swap and tweaks should make it work.

RE: Amp.  IF you want to look at other amps to address mud, the ReVv Generator 100 & 120 are incredibly clear and articulate amps with great note separation.  Would definitely help out a lot in the low mid department. 

Another option RE: cabs is to go with two 2 x 12s.  2 x 12s tend to be tighter because of the reduced acoustic space and they are lighter and stackable which is great for transport.  If you wanted to run 4 2 x 12s for a fullstack, you can use series boxes so that the impedance correctly matches the output on the amp.   

CommonCourtesy

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 09:13:01 PM »
Cheers Yellowjacket, I do plan on keeping the Marshall in storage if I get a new cab, so I can experiment whilst I use the main cab for gigs. There's a writing period coming up which would be a good time to start changing speakers.

The G12T-75's are definitely the offender here. I only put 2 V30's in at first to test it out and I did originally like the difference however as time went on and we did more shows where I had to use it I noticed it was lacking.

I have read about the Chinese V30's being a bit more fizzy then British made ones, but apparently the Suffolk factory or wherever they're made shut down years ago (like in 2011).

I love my 6505+ too much to change at the moment. Though I have been casting an eye over JCM800's and stuff.

A 2x12 would be more desirable for transport and storage but as mentioned above we have a big ass van and a storage space so that's not an issue, apart from every and the van sometimes isn't available so we have to take cars. Fitting 4x12's in boots can be a struggle.

Yellowjacket

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 09:42:39 PM »
I have read about the Chinese V30's being a bit more fizzy then British made ones, but apparently the Suffolk factory or wherever they're made shut down years ago (like in 2011).

The Mesa OEM v30s are a different model of speaker from the chinese v30.  I know the Marshall OEMv30s are yet again another variant.
The Mesa OEM v30s are still in production and are likely available from Mesa dealers in the UK.  They are available from Mesa dealers here in canada. 

"This is not the case. Both the Mesa V30 and Marshall G12 Vintage are voiced differently than the "out of the box" Celestion V30. I have all three (actually four, as Mesa had yet another V30 variant from the mid 90's). They all have different "T" numbers but share the same 444 bass cone. The Mesa's are definitely darker.
Compared side by side, the difference is quite noticeable."  http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?247521-Opinions-on-Mesa-s-V30-speaker&s=0d120b85253b728221103067c1bc1cbd&p=3282172&viewfull=1#post3282172

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/what-do-vintage-30s-sound-like.851486/



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-IGBhdkk8w&feature=youtu.be

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?247521-Opinions-on-Mesa-s-V30-speaker&s=0d120b85253b728221103067c1bc1cbd&p=3283083&viewfull=1#post3283083

RE: the 6505.  I had a Rev F 2 channel Dual Rectifier with the black diamond plate and chrome chassis.  I refused to get rid of it for the longest time, but when I got a ReVv, it changed everything. 

Having a super clear and tight amp is great.  I seriously do NOT have to boost a 7 string tuned in drop A with that amp.  Tight, clear lows, supper aggressive attack, and a great lead feel.  Love it!!

CommonCourtesy

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Re: Cab upgrade
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2017, 09:53:43 PM »
Hmm interesting, there's a subtle difference, the Mesa V30 sounds brighter and more tight. Though I don't know how long both speakers have been played in for one could be newer than the other.

As long as it a V30 of some sort it'll be better than what I'm using at the moment! We are all chasing our dream tone!

Once I played my 6505+ I said I'd never sell it or find a better amp unless its a Mesa Dual Rectifier or a Diezel VH4.

But I have seen some of my favourite artists using lesser known names like Bad Cat, Bugera, Custom Audio and such.

I feel I have a good guitar (Ceramic Nailbomb) and a TS9 to boost. Just gotta be careful with my resonance control and the other EQ settings.