Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: CJ on October 30, 2007, 12:13:39 AM
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ok, with christmas coming up, i have a bunch of questions, and looking for opinions on many ideas.
first off, how much bottom end and 'heaviness' will a 2x12 add to a 4x10 cab? about how much does an average 2x12 sell for?
what exactly is a pre-amp, in terms of buying a single preamp? can i add one to my amp to get a different sound? how much do these run for?
now here's where i'm looking for opinions... With all my grandparents and parents putting their money together, i have about $400 or so and was thinking of finally getting an Agile LP. Or, i could sell my current les paul xr-1, which i don't really like that much, and buy a used Jackson RR-5 which i've always wanted, plus have that extra christmas money to buy a new cab or pre-amp. what would you do? i know its all my own decision, but just looking for opinions... what would the miracle man sound better in, the RR5 or the LP? since i already have a mahogony guitar, and am planning on getting another one for graduation next year (Dean ML) (aren't i spoiled?) would it be a better idea to get the alder bodied RR5, or is there really not much of a difference in sound?
i have more questions that i'll think up and ask as we go, but if i could just get some answers and opinions so i can start thinking things over...
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ok, with christmas coming up, i have a bunch of questions, and looking for opinions on many ideas.
first off, how much bottom end and 'heaviness' will a 2x12 add to a 4x10 cab? about how much does an average 2x12 sell for?
what exactly is a pre-amp, in terms of buying a single preamp? can i add one to my amp to get a different sound? how much do these run for?
now here's where i'm looking for opinions... With all my grandparents and parents putting their money together, i have about $400 or so and was thinking of finally getting an Agile LP. Or, i could sell my current les paul xr-1, which i don't really like that much, and buy a used Jackson RR-5 which i've always wanted, plus have that extra christmas money to buy a new cab or pre-amp. what would you do? i know its all my own decision, but just looking for opinions... what would the miracle man sound better in, the RR5 or the LP? since i already have a mahogon
y guitar, and am planning on getting another one for graduation next year (Dean ML) (aren't i spoiled?) would it be a better idea to get the alder bodied RR5, or is there really not much of a difference in sound?
i have more questions that i'll think up and ask as we go, but if i could just get some answers and opinions so i can start thinking things over...
Preamp: Basically, all amps are made of a Preamp and a power amp.
Preamp is where your guitar sticks in, it generates a sound, and sends it to the poweramp to be AMPLIFIED.
Guitar > Preamp > Effects Loop Send > Effects Loop Return > Poweramp > Speakers
In theory, although I'm not sure about this, you can stick your preamp in the return of an effects loop and play through the preamp into the amps poweramp effectively bypassing the preamp of the amp.
So it would be:
Guitar > Seperate preamp > effects loop return > poweramp > speakers.
If you wanted to use the Preamp seperately you'd need a seperate poweramp to power the speakers.
The above information could be entirely wrong, and you could end up blowing things up or something - So heed with caution.
2x12s aren't generally as dark as 4x12s in my expierience, and I know very little about 4x10s, but ofcourse, it depends on the amp, and the speakers more.
On the guitar thing - It's your call, if it were me, I'd only buy a new guitar if it was either - Better than your current, or very different to your current. If you own a good LP, don't buy another LP for a 3rd of the price, chances are it's not as good and you'll end up never playing it.
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Preamp: Basically, all amps are made of a Preamp and a power amp.
Preamp is where your guitar sticks in, it generates a sound, and sends it to the poweramp to be AMPLIFIED.
Guitar > Preamp > Effects Loop Send > Effects Loop Return > Poweramp > Speakers
In theory, although I'm not sure about this, you can stick your preamp in the return of an effects loop and play through the preamp into the amps poweramp effectively bypassing the preamp of the amp.
So it would be:
Guitar > Seperate preamp > effects loop return > poweramp > speakers.
If you wanted to use the Preamp seperately you'd need a seperate poweramp to power the speakers.
The above information could be entirely wrong, and you could end up blowing things up or something - So heed with caution.
2x12s aren't generally as dark as 4x12s in my expierience, and I know very little about 4x10s, but ofcourse, it depends on the amp, and the speakers more.
On the guitar thing - It's your call, if it were me, I'd only buy a new guitar if it was either - Better than your current, or very different to your current. If you own a good LP, don't buy another LP for a 3rd of the price, chances are it's not as good and you'll end up never playing it.
ok, well i was thinking about a pre-amp because i really like my amp now, but it lacks an EQ for the OD channel, and doesn't have a tube pre-amp. So i was thinking maybe putting a tube pre-amp in would really make it sound better, but don't know if this is possible.
On the cab, i like the mids i get from the 10's, but lack the power and bottom end of the 12's. i figured adding a 2x12 to a 4x10 would be a killer combo.
On the guitars, well, i really don't enjoy playing my LP all that much. Its not bad, but not great. Gibson even emailed me saying that these guitars were some of the worst they've made. I've heard Agiles are great. I'm wondering if I'd be better suited to just get possibly a guitar just as good, plus have the extra money to spend on whatever i'd like. Really, the motivation for a new guitar is something to put my Miracle man in. I'd like to get a C-WP for my V, but would like to throw the miracle man in something else. And the RR5, i've always wanted, and now i have a chance to possibly get one. but, with me getting a Dean ML (cowboys from hell guitar, possibly) is it necessary to have a RR5, gibson V, and an ML? would i find that they're all quite similar?
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running a preamp into another amp's FX loop return is COMPLETELY safe. Just make sure you arent using the amp's preamp at the same time or it might either damage the amp, or just sound like shite.
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running a preamp into another amp's FX loop return is COMPLETELY safe. Just make sure you arent using the amp's preamp at the same time or it might either damage the amp, or just sound like shitee.
how would i not use the amp's preamp?
and is this even a good idea? will i gain anything by running a new preamp into my amp? (marshall 3203 artist)
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By not plugging into the amp and plugging into the seperate preamp - Which inturn goes through the effects loop.
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Important question:
Does the Marshall have an FX loop?
If not then forget the pre-amp stuff altogether.
The Marshall artist head that you have is sought after by some folks - so if it doesn't work for your music why not sell it for some good $$ and get an amp that suits the metal you want to play.
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Important question:
Does the Marshall have an FX loop?
If not then forget the pre-amp stuff altogether.
The Marshall artist head that you have is sought after by some folks - so if it doesn't work for your music why not sell it for some good $$ and get an amp that suits the metal you want to play.
the fact that its sought after is some of the reason i'm keeping it actually. Since i've bought it about a year or so ago the average selling price has gone up a good bit i've noticed. Plus, i do love the sound i get, but i do play multiple styles. I was thinking that i could get some type of real heavy pre-amp (if possible) to use for metal, and then just unhook that for my regular stuff. And yes, i do have an FX loop.
EDIT: just thought of a really cool idea, wondering if this would work. Lead into middle jack of A/B pedal. A to 3203, B preamp.
DOUBLE EDIT: oh, will that not work because i can't play through the marshall's full circuit if the preamp is in the effects loop? is there another way i could effectively A/B them?
TRIPLE SUPER EDIT: the more i think about it, the more i'm liking this idea. i've always kind of wanted a Randall for that Dimebag like tone, but obviously that tone is only good for certain things. It seems to me like a really good idea to get a Randall Preamp and then have my two types of distortion at hand. But, is adding a seperate preamp to a head unit a good idea, like will it sound good? or are preamps really just supposed to go along with a seperate head unit? Also, are randall pre-amps good?
And another thought, if i did get a pre-amp, that always leaves room for me to buy another power amp, so i could have two amps.
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Important question:
Does the Marshall have an FX loop?
If not then forget the pre-amp stuff altogether.
The Marshall artist head that you have is sought after by some folks - so if it doesn't work for your music why not sell it for some good $$ and get an amp that suits the metal you want to play.
the fact that its sought after is some of the reason i'm keeping it actually. Since i've bought it about a year or so ago the average selling price has gone up a good bit i've noticed. Plus, i do love the sound i get, but i do play multiple styles. I was thinking that i could get some type of real heavy pre-amp (if possible) to use for metal, and then just unhook that for my regular stuff. And yes, i do have an FX loop.
EDIT: just thought of a really cool idea, wondering if this would work. Lead into middle jack of A/B pedal. A to 3203, B preamp.
DOUBLE EDIT: oh, will that not work because i can't play through the marshall's full circuit if the preamp is in the effects loop? is there another way i could effectively A/B them?
It would work.
The amp's preamp is still part of the circuit, it's just not got anything playing through it.
Presumeably you could put a guitar into both the amp and the seperate preamp and play them both through the poweramp at once.
Although again, it's not recommended.
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It would work.
The amp's preamp is still part of the circuit, it's just not got anything playing through it.
Presumeably you could put a guitar into both the amp and the seperate preamp and play them both through the poweramp at once.
Although again, it's not recommended.
well if i'm going to fry something, i'm not gonna do it. thats why i was asking. could i a/b it safely? also, i added on to my last post, looking for thoughts..
whoops, when looking at those Randall's, what i was looking at was just the pre-amp modules... Its another $600 for the rest of it. Any other decent pre-amps i can get for cheaper?
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It would work.
The amp's preamp is still part of the circuit, it's just not got anything playing through it.
Presumeably you could put a guitar into both the amp and the seperate preamp and play them both through the poweramp at once.
Although again, it's not recommended.
well if i'm going to fry something, i'm not gonna do it. thats why i was asking. could i a/b it safely? also, i added on to my last post, looking for thoughts..
whoops, when looking at those Randall's, what i was looking at was just the pre-amp modules... Its another $600 for the rest of it. Any other decent pre-amps i can get for cheaper?
Lol - There are infinite you can find.
Marshall, Mesa, Engl, all make great preamps.
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It would work.
The amp's preamp is still part of the circuit, it's just not got anything playing through it.
Presumeably you could put a guitar into both the amp and the seperate preamp and play them both through the poweramp at once.
Although again, it's not recommended.
well if i'm going to fry something, i'm not gonna do it. thats why i was asking. could i a/b it safely? also, i added on to my last post, looking for thoughts..
whoops, when looking at those Randall's, what i was looking at was just the pre-amp modules... Its another $600 for the rest of it. Any other decent pre-amps i can get for cheaper?
Lol - There are infinite you can find.
Marshall, Mesa, Engl, all make great preamps.
HEAVY, under $400. ?
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It would work.
The amp's preamp is still part of the circuit, it's just not got anything playing through it.
Presumeably you could put a guitar into both the amp and the seperate preamp and play them both through the poweramp at once.
Although again, it's not recommended.
well if i'm going to fry something, i'm not gonna do it. thats why i was asking. could i a/b it safely? also, i added on to my last post, looking for thoughts..
whoops, when looking at those Randall's, what i was looking at was just the pre-amp modules... Its another $600 for the rest of it. Any other decent pre-amps i can get for cheaper?
Lol - There are infinite you can find.
Marshall, Mesa, Engl, all make great preamps.
HEAVY, under $400. ?
Used? Sure.
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Important question:
Does the Marshall have an FX loop?
If not then forget the pre-amp stuff altogether.
The Marshall artist head that you have is sought after by some folks - so if it doesn't work for your music why not sell it for some good $$ and get an amp that suits the metal you want to play.
the fact that its sought after is some of the reason i'm keeping it actually. Since i've bought it about a year or so ago the average selling price has gone up a good bit i've noticed. Plus, i do love the sound i get, but i do play multiple styles. I was thinking that i could get some type of real heavy pre-amp (if possible) to use for metal, and then just unhook that for my regular stuff. And yes, i do have an FX loop.
EDIT: just thought of a really cool idea, wondering if this would work. Lead into middle jack of A/B pedal. A to 3203, B preamp.
DOUBLE EDIT: oh, will that not work because i can't play through the marshall's full circuit if the preamp is in the effects loop? is there another way i could effectively A/B them?
It would work.
The amp's preamp is still part of the circuit, it's just not got anything playing through it.
Presumeably you could put a guitar into both the amp and the seperate preamp and play them both through the poweramp at once.
Although again, it's not recommended.
He will need a transformer isolated A/B switch to prevent earth loop hum
Think The Tonebone Loopbone may be good for this purpose
http://www.tonebone.com/tb-loopbone.htm
(http://www.tonebone.com/images/loopbone-top-dds-370.jpg)[/i]
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Important question:
Does the Marshall have an FX loop?
If not then forget the pre-amp stuff altogether.
The Marshall artist head that you have is sought after by some folks - so if it doesn't work for your music why not sell it for some good $$ and get an amp that suits the metal you want to play.
the fact that its sought after is some of the reason i'm keeping it actually. Since i've bought it about a year or so ago the average selling price has gone up a good bit i've noticed. Plus, i do love the sound i get, but i do play multiple styles. I was thinking that i could get some type of real heavy pre-amp (if possible) to use for metal, and then just unhook that for my regular stuff. And yes, i do have an FX loop.
EDIT: just thought of a really cool idea, wondering if this would work. Lead into middle jack of A/B pedal. A to 3203, B preamp.
DOUBLE EDIT: oh, will that not work because i can't play through the marshall's full circuit if the preamp is in the effects loop? is there another way i could effectively A/B them?
It would work.
The amp's preamp is still part of the circuit, it's just not got anything playing through it.
Presumeably you could put a guitar into both the amp and the seperate preamp and play them both through the poweramp at once.
Although again, it's not recommended.
He will need a transformer isolated A/B switch to prevent earth loop hum
Think The Tonebone Loopbone may be good for this purpose
http://www.tonebone.com/tb-loopbone.htm
(http://www.tonebone.com/images/loopbone-top-dds-370.jpg)[/i]
well i was just wondering because i already have an A/b switch. i think its a morley ABY.
and noodle, can i get some examples of these that i can get used, or what you think are some good ones? i really don't know anything about what amps are good. i bought my marshall and have never thought about anything else.
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hmm... i'm looking into this Engl e530 preamp. I've never played an engl, or anything besides my marshall :oops: , but they seem to get a good metal tone. Now it appears they have pretty mixed reviews, some say they're only good for heavy metal, some say they're only good for green day ( :roll: ), but i'm really liking it.
1. It has a true bypass, so i could do what i was talking about before... switch between that and the preamp inside my marshall head (right?).
2. It has a recording output. For the longest time i've wanted to get good recording gear but couldn't justify the money. The clips i've heard with the recording line out with this thing were pretty decent, so this looks like a good idea.
3. thoughts? is there something better, heavier? my marshall has a very good gain channel, so i'm not looking for just another good, rock, lead tone, i'm looking for something real heavy. :evil:
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Engl are great, and sound brilliant for metal sounds.
Very tight, pwerful amps.
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Engl are great, and sound brilliant for metal sounds.
Very tight, pwerful amps.
is this preamp still in production? i can't find it anywhere new, let alone used. or is this because they're a european company?
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this clip is kind of helping me to lean towards the Engl. sounds pretty good.
http://netmusicians.org/?value=Engl%20E530§ion=amp
take a listen to all those clips on there.
now i have to find one...
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whoops, triple post.
so, i found a dealer in the US selling them for $510 shipped. anyone know if this is a good price? i can't find anywhere else to compare to...
i also found it pretty cool that it has a 1.5 watt power amp built in so i can plug straight into my cab for low volumes. niceee.
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If you want Dimebag, get the amp he used - a Randall RG100. They're still pretty cheap on ebay, like this one...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Randall-RG-100-RG100-Amp-Head-Guitar-Dimebag-RG100ES_W0QQitemZ200167822601QQihZ010QQcategoryZ121161QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
If this was in the UK I'd be all over it. The seller has a video of him playing the amp in the auction description - nails Dimebag's tone.
:twisted:
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yeah i've kind of reconsidered the Randall. i don't think its a good idea to get a randall just because it worked for dime. those clips to me just sounded thin. probably would be even worse with my 4x10. I'm still diggin the idea of the separate preamp so i could mix my sounds and eventually expand. now i have a question, i'm assuming that i don't have to mount this thing on a rack? i've never had any rack gear, not even sure if i know what it means... and if i put the preamp through the effects loop in my marshall, does that bypass all the controls on the marshall besides the on/off switch?
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ok, got the Engl. haven't tried it yet. need to ask a few questions before breaking it.
1. can i use a patch cable to hook the pre up to my marshall head? its like half a foot long, so i'd like to use that if i can.
2. i know i go into the fx return on my head (right), but from the pre, do i use the line output, or the instrument output/fx loop send?
3. the line level knob, would setting it to 0db mean its not giving it any increased db, or mean that i won't hear anything? not sure where to set this to. thanks.
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Patch cable should be fine.
Instrument out/FX Loop Send >> Amp's FX Return.
Level knob at 0 means unaffected if it has negative values aswell.
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thanks man, i can't wait to try this thing out. the line level is just a knob with 0 on one side and 15db on the other. i'm reading the manual though and i don't think that does anything when you're using the instrument/fx send output. and just curious, what would be the difference between using the fxsend or the line output out to go to the poweramp? is this something i can experiment with, or will the fx send be the only one that works?
thanks.
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I think both should be ok - But I guess the lineout, actually has various level output, so it can be used with different applications. While the FX Send is designed to be at the same level as a normal instrument out.
You could probably experiment, dunno how much it would do though ;s
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thanks again.
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just spent a couple hours playing, and this thing is $%&#ing awesome. didn't really have time to mess around with it too much, mainly just the different gain stages. the 3rd channel had about as much gain as my marshall's lead channel, so it definitely has plenty of gain. even with loads of gain though, its never real fuzzy, very thick. i did run into a couple problems however. my marshall's volume controls don't work, so i probably couldn't have gotten it quite up to band levels. I changed the engl's output to the line out rather than instrument out, which didn't change anything, but let me use the line level on the engl as a master instead. it should be plenty loud enough now, though i'm still not sure why the Marshall's master volume isn't working... that should be part of the power section- the reverb works...
another thing, just bought a second 2 button footswitch to use with the head, doesn't work for some reason. the footswitch i already had works, and they appear to be the same basic generic 2 button footswitch. the new one when i plug it in just automatically turns everything on and i can't control anything with it. any clue why, or what i'd need?
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however. my marshall's volume controls don't work, so i probably couldn't have gotten it quite up to band levels. I changed the engl's output to the line out rather than instrument out, which didn't change anything, but let me use the line level on the engl as a master instead. it should be plenty loud enough now, though i'm still not sure why the Marshall's master volume isn't working... that should be part of the power section
For many amps the MV is before the FX loop, therefore I'm not surprised at all at your Marshall's MV not working in this situation.
You are quite right in working out to control your volume with the Engl's line level knob.
Alan
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hmm... didn't know that. i guess its not a big deal, i was getting it plenty loud enough using the line level, however, am i driving the Engl's tubes way too hard this way?
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hmm... didn't know that. i guess its not a big deal, i was getting it plenty loud enough using the line level, however, am i driving the Engl's tubes way too hard this way?
If it sounds good it'll be fine. I assume they're all 12a?7's of some description in the Engl. Shouldn't be able to stress the tubes too much, however hard you drive it.
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k, i guess again its not that big of a deal either way. even if they were being driven too hard they'd probably still last like a year or so.
generally how good are factory original tubes? i've heard a lot of people replace them right away..
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whatever, the tubes are fine. anyone got an idea about the footswitch? and when i turn my rig on and off, does it matter whether i turn on the pre amp or power amp on first? and same question for shut off...
thanks guys. liking this thing more and more the more i play it.