Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Armchair Bronco on November 01, 2007, 04:20:38 AM
-
OK, I know this question has been asked a bunch of time before, but I'm gonna ask it again in my own way.
I can't decide between a G12H and a V30 speaker for an Avatar 1x12 cab I'd like to order. I'll be pairing it up with an Orange Tiny Terror that I'm getting next month.
Most of the time, I'll be playing the amp at low volumes.
I generally use only the bridge pickup on my HB-based guitars, and I play mostly stoner rock & grunge: AC/DC, Zep, Nirvana, and The Wipers.
I'm pretty sure that no matter which speaker I choose, I'll end up with Buyer's Remorse just like I always do... But any tips or suggestions on which speaker to choose will be appreciated. :wink:
-
Since most of the folks on the forum seem to be in the UK, I thought I'd post a link to the Avatar site (Avatar operates out of Idaho in the Pacific Northwest to the east of me in Seattle).
Here's the main site: http://www.avatarspeakers.com
And here's the 1x12 page: http://www.avatarspeakers.com/g112.htm
In addition to lots of different Celestion speakers, Avatar also sells broken-in versions of the G12H and the V30 (Avatar calls them "Hellatones"). The stock Celestions are played hard for 15 hours, and I think they're actually a few dollars cheaper than the originals.
The Avatar 1x12 cabinets are also almost cube-like at 17"x17"x15.5".
To top it off, one of the finish options is orange tolex for folks using the Tiny Terror or Rocker heads.
(http://www.avatarspeakers.com/pictures/g112/orange%20wheat.jpg)
-
Not my area of expertise but I know Orange use the Vintage 30 in their 2x12's and 4x12's. I heard a TT through a 4x12 in the shop and it sounded great, but I've not heard a comparisson to anything else.
-
Yeah, the Orange 2x12's are too expensive for me. A 1x12 Avatar, on the other hand, fits the bill pretty well as a practice cab, and if I get a 16 ohm version, I can get another 16 ohm 1x12 down the road and connect 'em both to the Tiny Terror (and have a mini-stack that's 34" high).
A lot of folks who get the 2x12 from Avatar have one V30 and one G12H; I'll probably end up doing something similar with a couple of 1x12 cabs...eventually.
In the meantime, I need to pick the right speaker, and all I'm looking for now is some anecdotal feedback from folks who have strong opinions one way or the other about V30's vs. G12H's.
What really sucks about the Celestion website (and as websites go, it's a pretty good one) is that their various speaker sound samples aren't comparing oranges to oranges: they'll have a "Blues" sample of the V30 on a Strat paired up against a totally different "Blues" sample of the G12H on a Les Paul with completely different amp settings, pedals, players, etc. for each sample.
The individual samples are great, but when you're trying to pick "the right" speaker, you need to have some consistency from one sound sample to the next!
-
One last thing: I'm talking about the Celestion G12H30, not the more expensive Heritage G12H.
The basic Avatar 1x12 cab sells for $199, and includes one of the following speakers: Hellatone 30, Hellatone 60, Hellatone 60L, Celestion Greenback , Celestion Classic Lead 80, Celestion G12H30, Celestion G12T75, Celestion G12T100, Celestion Vintage 30.
The Celestion Heritage G12H (as well as the G12M and G12-65) raise the price to $319. And for $400, you can get the cab with Alnico speakers.
-
Well, it all depends on the kind of music you like to play. If you play metal I'd go with vintage 30s. But if you bought a TT, i don't really think you play metal :D For straight up rock' n roll I like the G12H better. It has a clearer top end and it doesnt have a spiky midrange. It's sort of like a Greenback, but has more bass and is a bit more agressive. Hope I helped :)
-
Both the V30 and the G12H30 (anni) are great, well-respected speakers.
V30's have a sort of upper midrange honk, which I really like. Many folks, however, do not like it. the G12H30 has less mids, but more lows and highs.
This clip - http://www.pebbleman.co.za/ricker/Celestion%20comparison.mp3 - is a good comparison example of the two speakers (plus the expensive Celestion Gold). The order of the speakers in the clip is 1/Gold, 2/ V30, 3/ G12H30. all speakers were played in the same cab, with the same miking.
( Please note, this is NOT my work - see http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=224046, for the original thread ).
If you really cannot decide between the two, I would go for the V30, purely because Orange voices all it's other current amps around V30s, and put's V30's in all it's cabs and combos.
Or - buy both, decide which one you like, and sell the other (or keep it for your next cab !). The market on ebay for mint V30's and G12H30's is pretty good by the way.
Good luck !
Alan
-
As Ailean says, Orange put v30s in their cabs and they do sound great so obviously well matched - I was considering one for my JCM800 but went with a G12H with the consideration that I would put a V30 in my Laney at some point, and use as a pair...and thanks Alan - these clips have made up my mind that that is exactly what I will do :)
-
Right, I have a TT and these are my two favourite speakers. So I should be able to help :)
I currently use my TT with a 2x12 fitted with both a G12H Anniversary and a Vintage 30. The pair sound great together, so your long term plan is spot on. My 4x12 with V30s and G12H Heritages sounds even better though ;)
Short term, given the music style you listed and the lower volume you'll be using, I'd go for a G12H in your first cab. In my experience, speakers sound best when they're pushing a good proportion of their power handling - over a third or a so. A low volume TT (around 5 watts?) through a 60w Vintage 30 (that's 1/12 or 8% of speaker output) isn't going to be ideal. It will sound OK, but the speaker isn't moving enough to balance your tone properly. You'll get a LOT of mids, which may sound a bit "honky".
On the other hand, 5w through a 30w speaker is twice the percentage of power handling (1/6 or 17% of speaker output). The G12H has a thick solid bass (important for filling up the sound of a low wattage amp) and good clear highs. There are less mids than a V30 available so you won't get that honky box sound at lower volumes. If you decide to run the TT clean, the G12H is also much nicer sounding here as the lower mids gives a much more ear friendly clean tone.
So, get the G12H in your first cab and start saving for the V30 equipped add-on ;)
-
Slightly off-topic, but how would a G12M compare in a similar setting (particularly in comparison with the G12H)?
-
Not sure Philly - it's on my list of things to try at some point. I would imagine it would sit somewhere between the G12H/V30 tonally, in that it would have a more balanced tone, with a warmer overall feel and a looser, rounder bass. As a VERY, VERY rough guide, the tone of the speakers mentioned in this thread are:
V30 EQ curve: ^
G12H EQ curve: v
G12M EQ curve: -
-
I went thro this speaker choice when I re-speakered my Harly and spec'd up a 2X12 for my TT.
I know a lot of people rate the V30's but they're defineteley not for me- just don't get 'em.
Okay IMO G12 H's vs. G12M's-
G12H- G12M
More efficient Less efficient
Less Mids + gritty top end More Mids +sweet top end
More Highs and Lows Less with creamy mid range
Punchier
more clarity and ballsy Softer sound
After comparing the standard versions with the Heritage ones I found the Heritage tones to be so smoooooth with better clarity.
I ended up with a G12M 20 Heritage in my Harly and a 2X 12 cab with one H and one M heritage versions which I mainly use with the TT or my Marshall.
-
Whoops lost the format of my 'table'
G12H more effiecient, louder, More Bass and Treble with grittier top end, More clarity, pinchier more balls more clarity
G12M more mids (scratchy mids?) less effiicient, Less Bass and Treble with a smooth and very sweet top end, Softer with creamy midrange
-
Thanks guys, I'm thinking the G12M (probably regular, not Heritage, on cost grounds) sounds my kind of thing. :)
But I'm putting the cart well before the horse, because my TT still hasn't turned up and I don't have a cab at all yet! :roll:
(Apologies for the thread hijack)
-
I found this helpful.
http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/documents/testreport_40.pdf
-
OK, Here's a link to some speaker clips I have collected (done by Southbay Ampworks - makers of Scumback speakers). They include a lot of scumback speaker clips, but also compare the Celestion G12H heritage and G12M Heritage speaker, for those who would like to hear the difference between the H (heavy) and the M (medium) magnet speakers.
The sample rate on the clips is not the best, but they do give a good idea of the different tones.
http://www.box.net/shared/mci1s9m50b
-
This clip - http://www.pebbleman.co.za/ricker/Celestion%20comparison.mp3 - is a good comparison example of the two speakers (plus the expensive Celestion Gold). The order of the speakers in the clip is 1/Gold, 2/ V30, 3/ G12H30.
Thanks for the link! This really helps. It's the first side-by-side comparison of V30's and G12H30's I've heard, and it's tipped the balance in favor of the G12H's for me.
The Alnico Gold clip sounded GREAT (no surprise there), but I preferred the G12H30 (think Malcolm Young rhythm) over the V30 (think Angus Young lead). The G12H30 also appears to be a better speaker for low-volume jamming.
No one has yet said anything about Avatar's line of "Hellatone" broken-in speakers. Here's what they say on the website for their version of the G12H30 (although it also applies to their version of the V30):
"We start with a stock great sounding classic G12H30 Celestion. We convert it into a Hellatone by aging it slightly and by exercising the suspension for 15 hours so when you get it, it has a warmer tone on the very first note. This process gives the Hellatone 30 an even richer low end than it already had. The model 30 has wonderful mids and highs and a beautiful overdrive tone. If you drive it hard, you get a real nice cone break up that sounds fantastic. (70th year Anniversary, not Heritage)"
Seems like a no-brainer to me.
-
Thanks for the links people have posted here. In addition, are there any G12K-100 clips that people have done comparing the sounds with, say V30s, G12H etc?
From reading and listening to various clips (terrible way to do it, I know!), I'm settling on the idea of matching 2 Eminence Wizards with 2 G12K-100s. I'm just a bit put off by the wizards, given that I'm playing very low, fast heavy music, and every site which descibes them talks about jazz...
Roo
PS while I'm at it, any suggestions for 15" speakers to load a 2 x 15" extension cab for the same music, to go with a 2 x wiz/2 x G12K-100 cab?
PPS I forgot to mention that I play quite scooped, currently with a miracle man, looking towards ceramic warpig for a future custom build
-
Seems like a no-brainer to me.
Yes it does, doesn't it !
-
Yep, if you're in the US get a Hellatone G12H :D
-
I found this helpful.
http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/documents/testreport_40.pdf
This is a very good review of lots of different speakers. Unfortunately, it's not possible to cut and paste from this PDF file (this has apparently been disabled) so you'll have to read the article yourself.
Here are a couple of snippets I've re-typed on the G12H30:
"The first thing that struck me was the immense warmth of the speaker. It was well balanced and musical at low volume with the treble response silky smooth. When the volume was increased the speaker did not lose control, balance was perfect with the treble still smooth, tight and [crisp]. With the gain wound right up with humbuckers full on the speaker provided a rich harmonic treble with touch responsiveness that would normally only be associated with an alnico speaker.
The speaker provides a sweet singing sustain that was very musical and in no way harsh. The speaker has a very tight bass response with smooth cut and clarity which was equally at home with single notes or power chords.
This is one of the best [Celestions] ever made in my opinion with no faults whatsoever."
-
Yeah G12Hs are great speakers, that comparison clip has put me off trying a V30 in my cab as it just sounds fizzier and a bit harsher :?
If you want more G12H clips most of the recordings in my sig were done with my Laney into a 2x12 with G12Hs in it. Theres quite a few v-amp clips there as well but you should be able to tell which they are because they sound really artificial. My favourites September, really pleased with my tone on that :D
-
from my experience...
* G12Ms have looser bass and less bass than G12Hs
* G12Ms have less mids, but smoother mids than G12Hs
* G12Ms have smoother treble than G12Hs
* G12Ms compress (cone cry/speaker breakup) easier than G12Hs
:twisted:
-
Thanks for the links people have posted here. In addition, are there any G12K-100 clips that people have done comparing the sounds with, say V30s, G12H etc?
From reading and listening to various clips (terrible way to do it, I know!), I'm settling on the idea of matching 2 Eminence Wizards with 2 G12K-100s. I'm just a bit put off by the wizards, given that I'm playing very low, fast heavy music, and every site which descibes them talks about jazz...
Roo
PS while I'm at it, any suggestions for 15" speakers to load a 2 x 15" extension cab for the same music, to go with a 2 x wiz/2 x G12K-100 cab?
PPS I forgot to mention that I play quite scooped, currently with a miracle man, looking towards ceramic warpig for a future custom build
K-100s are just plain awesome.
Really dark heavy sound.
Superb.
-
_tom_: Well the clips is a comparison but as i am using a V30, I believe that is not what V30 is abt. Its a very warm and middy speaker. I do not think its harsh. It is great in its own way. I find in the Comparison Clip the Gold sounds the best but maybe its just the setting as I believe V30 is a totally diff animal if u set it right. As i have learned clips and review must be taken with a pinch of salt. Juz my 2 cents. :D
-
Hellatone 30 = the best rock speaker bar a scumback.
-
I found this helpful.
http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/documents/testreport_40.pdf
This is a very good review of lots of different speakers. Unfortunately, it's not possible to cut and paste from this PDF file (this has apparently been disabled) so you'll have to read the article yourself.
Here are a couple of snippets I've re-typed on the G12H30:
"The first thing that struck me was the immense warmth of the speaker. It was well balanced and musical at low volume with the treble response silky smooth. When the volume was increased the speaker did not lose control, balance was perfect with the treble still smooth, tight and [crisp]. With the gain wound right up with humbuckers full on the speaker provided a rich harmonic treble with touch responsiveness that would normally only be associated with an alnico speaker.
The speaker provides a sweet singing sustain that was very musical and in no way harsh. The speaker has a very tight bass response with smooth cut and clarity which was equally at home with single notes or power chords.
This is one of the best [Celestions] ever made in my opinion with no faults whatsoever."
Hey Broncoman !
That Watford Valves review gives a pretty unusual view of the G12H30. The (almost) universal consensus elsewhere (and also my experience) is that they can be very bright, harsh and trebly for a long while until fully broken in. This can take from anywhere between 50 and 250 hours depending on type of use and volume. Once broken in - THEN they are alledged to transform into the type of speaker that WV describes.
Personally, I've only just got a G12H30 (with about 20 hours on it). Lets just say it's still well bright, and I am still patiently waiting for the transformation to occur.
So unless the WV review used a fully broken in speaker, it does not agree with many, many other folks around the globe.
Alan
-
Yeah the G12Hs take ages to break in, but when they do they sound awesome :D
-
yup think I'm sold on a g12h30 for my 1x12 and TT maybe a different one to match it later if I get a 2x12
-
Yeah the G12Hs take ages to break in, but when they do they sound awesome :D
I'm planning to get a Hellatone 30 which is a G12H30 that's been aged [not sure what that means...maybe hung in a dark room with some salami over some smoke...] and broken in for 15 hours.
From one of the posts above, it seems like this may only represent 10%-15% of the total time needed to really break in this speaker.
Also, I'd imagine that since I'll only have the opportunity to really crank the TT on the weekends, the break-in period will be even longer given the fact that I'll be playing @ low volumes the rest of the time.
Oh well...nuttin' wrong with a little patience! :wink:
-
Personally, I've only just got a G12H30 (with about 20 hours on it). Lets just say it's still well bright, and I am still patiently waiting for the transformation to occur.
So unless the WV review used a fully broken in speaker, it does not agree with many, many other folks around the globe.
Alan
Yes, I agree with you on this.
When I read that WV review I was set on getting a G12H30.
Then I tried it at the Matamp factory and was not that keen. The Hot 100 sounded best to my ears so I settled on that. It was also "reeet cheap".
-
Damn it! Now I'm confused again!
Thanks for nuttin'! :x
-
Damn it! Now I'm confused again!
Thanks for nuttin'! :x
Just buy one of everything, it's the only way to be sure :)
-
Just buy one of everything, it's the only way to be sure :)
Hey, here's an idea: :idea:
Maybe I should ask Avatar if, for some extra cash, they'll REALLY break in an aged G12H30. Instead of 15 hours, I'll ask 'em for 150 hours!
It might become a whole new line for 'em. You could even specify what tunes you want them to play while breaking in the speaker. I'd ask for "Highway to Hell", "PoweRage", "Nevermind", Zeppelin I, and "Is This Real?" by The Wipers. 150 hours of some hard-driving Rock 'n Roll and I'll have the best sounding G12H30's on the block!
-
Kind of off topic but how many hours would you expect a speaker to last? And since they have a 'running in' period do they also have a 'getting old and saggy' point?
-
can you not just get an adaptor to just plug in your computer / cd player etc, and break it in by playing music, I'm sure I read of a guy doing it that way, and measured the output his guitar was giving, then adjusted iPod volume to the same and left it turned up
-
can you not just get an adaptor to just plug in your computer / cd player etc, and break it in by playing music, I'm sure I read of a guy doing it that way, and measured the output his guitar was giving, then adjusted iPod volume to the same and left it turned up
Yes you can, but you will need a power amp of some description to amplify your CD player/ipod first. I do it for a few hours with all my new speakers, until I can bear it no more !!!
I have it on good authority that dance music or rap is one of the best genres to "beat your speakers to a pulp". nice thudding bass is what is apparently good for getting the cones to "age" nicely.
It's not scientific reasoning, but it is good quality hearsay !
Alan
-
can you not just get an adaptor to just plug in your computer / cd player etc, and break it in by playing music, I'm sure I read of a guy doing it that way, and measured the output his guitar was giving, then adjusted iPod volume to the same and left it turned up
I tried that but it was too quiet and just sounded all buzzy. Maybe with a power amp itd work.
-
I definately depends on the volume you play at, but still I wouldn't agree it takes anything like 150 hours.
When I bought some G12H-30s for my Bluesbreaker back in 2001 they were solid in the bass, really snarly in the mids and the treble was pretty angry too, I certainly wouldn't say they were bright. I noticed after a few practices (maybe 20 hours most) that the mids/treble had settled down and become smoother, plus the speaker sounded altogether less stiff.
With the 55Hz bass cone G12M-25s I had in my 4x12, they were the same story - a little harsh at first, but didn't take long for that silky smooth compressed mids/top end to come out.
:twisted:
-
Well, earlier today I ordered an Avatar 1x12 cab with an 8-ohm G12H30 "Hellatone 30" speaker & finished in orange tolex with a wheat grill. Total bill including shipping was under $230, and it'll ship out tomorrow.
There's no turning back now -- I've gotta get the matching Orange Tiny Terror head to go with this cab. :wink:
I really appreciate all the great advice I got along the way.
...Now I'll have to start thinking about upgrading the pups on my short-scale Jagmaster...who knows...maybe something from "Bare Knuckle Pickups"...
-
Congrats AB,
Obviously posting pictures and soundclips will be obligatory, once you've got the whole rig assembled !
Alan
-
Well, earlier today I ordered an Avatar 1x12 cab with an 8-ohm G12H30 "Hellatone 30" speaker & finished in orange tolex with a wheat grill. Total bill including shipping was under $230, and it'll ship out tomorrow.
There's no turning back now -- I've gotta get the matching Orange Tiny Terror head to go with this cab. :wink:
I really appreciate all the great advice I got along the way.
...Now I'll have to start thinking about upgrading the pups on my short-scale Jagmaster...who knows...maybe something from "Bare Knuckle Pickups"...
Awesome Pics are a must!
-
After some experimenting with different cab/speaker combinations I am now favouring my Marshall 1x12 with a Vintage 30 and the back converted from closed to 1/3 open (built a new rear cover myself).
It's a great mix of elasticity, punch and clarity.
For 1x12 I don't like them closed, either ported or halfopen is what I prefer.