Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: FELINEGUITARS on November 15, 2007, 11:37:15 PM
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What do you guys all think of the trend that is emerging for supermarkets selling guitars?
And I'm not just talking about weirdo supermarkets like Lidl where the guitar will be next to the baked beans on one side and skis on the other side
I'm talking about ASDA and TESCO and the like suddenly selling guitars, probably cheap and nasty, made in China.
The same thing is happening with Argos who will have a new exclusive Gibson in their new product lines.
Do you think it is trying to cash in on the popularity of the "Guitar Hero" game ? But will it get more people playing guitar for real?
So many normal music shops are having such a hard time that they are all on the verge of closing, and some are trying desparately to keep up with internet sellers by slashing prices till there is no profitability in it and no point in bothering to keep the shop open.
Will this latest move hurt them even further by robbing them of the beginner market, which to be fair is their biggest sector?
I'm not sure what I make of it myself - will it affect me and my guitar repair business?
Will people think that paying to have their guitar set-up, repaired or upgraded is no longer viable when they buy them for so little.
Or will there be a queue of newbies with guitars that just don't play right out of the box hoping I could breathe some magic into their axes?
Or will they just give up if they realise its a bit harder than playing Guitar Hero on their games console?
If you bought an electric guitar for under £100 (maybe a lot less) would you spend £90-£200+ on upgrades like pickups or spend £40 to have it set up?
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Speaking of argos, you've been able to gt mail order guitars in catalogues for well over a decade now (at least)
Tescos are never going to fully cater for GAS. Fact.
Ergo, there will always be high street guitar retailers. If companies (like tesco) with massive buying power take up the low end and beginners market, then theres still intermediate, "First Real", high end and custom gear.
How many luthiers are you expecting tescos to employ, Jonathon? :wink:
I can see it now. Fresh bread and handmade super-axes in a one stop shop! The ovens next to the CNC machine. Luthiers slaving early in the morning to bring you the freshest guitars at low, low prices.
Sorry, got carried away there. :oops:
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well you obviosuly need to allow for the money for BKP's as well - so really its a £250 guitar :wink:
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I can't see the likes of Tesco and Asda helping music shops much-as you say, the beginners guitars are going to be their main thing but I would hope that the people taking up the guitar will always be divided in two categories: the quitters and the stickers.I started learning with 7 other guys at school.After a year or so most had given up and as time went by, only two of us carried on.All had bought guitars to start but the other guy and I have carried on.Tescos and Asda are not going to be looking for the likes of me which is just as well as I never go to supermarkets anymore.
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I can't see the likes of Tesco and Asda helping music shops much-as you say, the beginners guitars are going to be their main thing but I would hope that the people taking up the guitar will always be divided in two categories: the quitters and the stickers.I started learning with 7 other guys at school.After a year or so most had given up and as time went by, only two of us carried on.All had bought guitars to start but the other guy and I have carried on.Tescos and Asda are not going to be looking for the likes of me which is just as well as I never go to supermarkets anymore.
+1.
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As Mr Beatle says basically :D
The supermarkets will cater for the Xmas present, try it out market. The stayers will want a proper instrument soon enough, and for that they will go to a music shop.
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Its more like guitars are becoming a consumable item more and more, but thats with everything it seems.
If someone doesnt like the guitar anymore its just dumped on ebee and they buy another one and so on.
This does affect guitarstores and the guitar builders IMO since a large part of their trade venue is from second hand gear and nowadays even Gibson is getting commercialized to the point of making 'special offers' and sticking 30% off stickers on them. All at the cost of quality offcourse.
Just look at the quality of the new Gibson LP line, if you want a decent one you actually are looking at the VOS custom shopped ones, which IMO they made as a standard in the early 90s. So demanding players get to pick up the tab for all the price competition.
If i look back at the time before ebay and such, i could just walk in any store with some trade-in gear and get a decent price for it so i could buy something else, nowadays you can just forget it, they offer lowest ebee prices if your lucky you can trade something in at all!
Still, its no use trying to ignore facts, people want that special offer, discount or whatever and thats what has to be done.
So maybe you should offer a free setup with a refret Feline?
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it could just be an experiment on the part of the supermarkets, lets see if they're still selling guitars in 6 months time.
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They won't be.............but they will be at this time of the year again!
I've got friends who work in a local guitar shop here in Norwich, and a lot of their profit they make each year is on the 'Stagg' type of cheapo Chinese guitars they sell in nice little kits to parents buying that first guitar for their kid.
There's simply not the trade in high end guitars all the time to keep everything viable, hence why they've branched out to try to become the Easts biggest supplier of Bass guitars, drum equipment, and PA gear. The guitar market is getting seriously undercut.
However I have brought one of these cheapo Chinese things before to satisfy a GAS attack, and it was a complete waste of money......especially when you consider it did have a truss rod, but it wasn't attached to anything! :roll:
I'd rather buy Japanese :D
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i guess cheap strat copies have always existed in some form.. if you want one, you'll get one somehow. as jonesy indicates, cheap strat copies are probably the most popular guitar.
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A shop in Glasgow is the worst offender for cheapo Stagg gear. An entire wall is covered in sub £150 instruments, with only a handful of Fenders, the occasional Gibson and ONE PRS. Luckily that's in the minority, but still, not inspiring and they have been stocking less and less 'good' gear.
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A shop in Glasgow is the worst offender for cheapo Stagg gear. An entire wall is covered in sub £150 instruments, with only a handful of Fenders, the occasional Gibson and ONE PRS. Luckily that's in the minority, but still, not inspiring and they have been stocking less and less 'good' gear.
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Good post Jonathan.
I have a rather controversial point of view on this.
First, the cheaper an entrance into guitar playing can be made, the better. There shouldn't be major hurdles. More new starters also increases your potential target group by the way :wink:
My own experience, when I started to play, I did not get very good advise from the retail, it was more of a rip-off - luckily I bought a Tokai strat against the advise of the shop guy (because it was red like the one of Mark Knopfler).
What is happening at the moment is an increasing importance of web forums and web sites, clips on youtube and other sites, as well as harmony central reviews etc.
Also it is rather easy to become a semi expert in no time with all the resources that are available on the internet. So today, if someone seriously wants to start guitar, he might go to a shop with already a narrowed down selection of what he wants, and will face a fight between the retailer's recommended models and the web recommendation.
Then the frustration will often be that the models that people want to try are not available, so they will either buy something else or go home and order online.
Probably retail is gonna be replaced by Online in the long term and only the big chains will survive - which is the trend in most businesses. There are always some retailers that stay small but are smart enough to use change for their own advantage.
For example why are delaers not charging for the ability to test an instrument or amplifier? It's degrading its value, so why not charge a fee?
Actually personally I can live with the current development, it is what the community wants, as long as there are still builders and people that repair stuff, which at least here in Brussels, there are plenty (independent from dealers).
The only way to change the development would be through government intervention, e.g. taxes or restrictions, but those are always bad for the consumer.
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I agree in some regards to your statement Hunter, but my experience of first time guitar buyers (which is fairly considerable seeing as I'm the only guitarist in my place of work - apart from my consultant who is has only been playing for 6 weeks) is that they don't really know to go hunting through the on-line resources that we all know and use.
The problem is that a first time buyer invariably is a kid/teenager, or his or her parents. Very rarely is it an adult, or an adult with guitar experience buying for his/her offspring.
To the vast majority of parents who know nothing about guitars they will simply walk into a guitar or music store and ask them what they'd recommend for their kid; or it'll be a kid doing the same, or just asking for the same guitar his/her mate has! Very rarely will a first time buyer have the knowledge of what to look for in the big world of buying your first guitar. How many non-guitarists do you reckon would know to look on harmony-central? And if you don't know specifically what you're looking for you'll be looking on Harmony-Central for one hell of a long time!
If you're being pestered by junior to get Santa to get him/her a guitar for Christmas, and you known no better, seeing a package for sale in Tescos when you're doing the weekly shop will be too good a chance to turn down. Saves you a trip into town at the weekend to ask in a shop, and Tesco won't sell you a bum deal will they?? :roll:
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Last week Lidl offered a Yamaha (Pacifica) guitar and amp package for 200 Euros. Not a bad deal IMO.
How this will all affect the business? I don't really know. The internet sure hasn't helped small shops. People come to try stuff out in a shop and buy it on the internet.
I think there is a way for shops to survive. They'll have to offer something the internet can't. So it'll come down to quality and service or find a niche. Maybe sell 'reasonably priced' guitars, properly set up with upgrades already installed. Those would be more expensive, but will offer more bang for the buck. You could do something similar in a beginners market. Close a deal with a local guitar teacher. Sell a beginner pack with an X amount of guitar lessons.
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Tough question(s) to answer Feline.
One thing I will say is that ULTRA-cheap guitars, (which are usually terrible in terms of playability, holding tune, and construction quality), not only give beginners a hard time of playing the damn instrument, but also give a false impression of what it costs to get a good guitar. And of course, being a beginner and not in the know, this could well lead to ignorance as to what a decent instrument is and how much it's worth.
If anyone sees what I'm saying there?
Although of course you can look at it from the other angle and say that a flood of cheaper guitars will lower the value of instruments as a whole, meaning cheaper guitars for everyone!
I'm not too sure!
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Tescos and Asda are not going to be looking for the likes of me which is just as well as I never go to supermarkets anymore.
Bit off topic, but how do you eat?!
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you can get food in other places. in the olden days folk used to go the bakers, then the green grocer, then the butcher...blah blah blah
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We allways get our food delivered here.
Sainsburys online <3
On the guitar subject - Squire's are great. EVERYONE nowadays learns on a Squire, anything cheaper should be burned to the ground - cos frankly, Squires are awful guitars. But they're still great.
That being said - Cheaper guitars are, more people that are playing it - Which is in overall a good thing. But no parent is going to say ok to a £50 guitar and no to a £130 surely?
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i'm no fan of the big supermarkets. But they've been doing this for years to bakers, butchers etc. etc. anyone with any sense won't buy a guitar from tesco, basically. and if it gets someone interested, for cheap, it might expand the market.
also, guitars have been consumer products much more so than other instruments. Could you buy a decent euphonium for £200?
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i think supermarkets have their place, but their place is food. cheap, bland, every day food.
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Tescos and Asda are not going to be looking for the likes of me which is just as well as I never go to supermarkets anymore.
Bit off topic, but how do you eat?!
Maybe 38th leaves the shopping to Mrs.Beatle Joe. :)
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Tescos and Asda are not going to be looking for the likes of me which is just as well as I never go to supermarkets anymore.
Bit off topic, but how do you eat?!
Maybe 38th leaves the shopping to Mrs.Beatle Joe. :)
lol ahhh, wise choice haha.
By the way Dave_mc i can play a Euphonium haha.
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On the other hand, the first guitar i bought was one of the first cheapo fender copys ever, one of those italian cardboard guitard from the 70's. I bought it of a friend for 20 pounds which was all i could afford at age of 13, then after alot of searching i found a beatup overdrive pedal and i wired up my dads old stereo to play trough. Total cost a mere 25 pounds!
No matter how bad it sounded or that i cut my fingers everytime i played, or even that we could not afford to get me guitar lessons. Probably this has made me much more fanatic and willing to spend money on a good guitar. I still have that bloody B(&^%# of a guitar, going to ritually burn it one day, damn i was happy when i got an Aria for my 16th birthday.
So maybe it wont be all that bad eventually, and i also think since the quality of mayor guitar brands is dropping like crazy, small builers could benefit if they only are able to reach a large enough clientele, because on the net thats what its about i guess.
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Also, just to try and contribute to the discussion, the supermarkets target audience is beginners, they are not trying to be a guitar store, beginners don't have a $%&#ing clue about guitars (like what's good, what makes what kind of sound etc.) so it's a smart move by them to offer cheap bundles because they know people don't want to shed out loads at a guitar store for a beginner guitarist.
And tbh if you go to a guitar store (unless you have a really nice store) when you ask them about what you should get they will just try and make you buy the most expensive stuff possible, so for a beginner why not go spend £50, they might not even carry on playing so you would be a fool to spend that much at a guitar store.
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To clear up the concerns about our purchasing habits, like Indy says, we go to small shops and I can say that the quality is better and the prices are not that much more. We know a local butcher, baker and also a nifty outlet for candles :wink: .Mrs 38th has a small shop and as such, we support other small businesses. Good to see you about Sam btw.
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Ah right, well yeh it's alright if you've got the money and time to do all that. Supermarkets are just easier and cheaper. Though i do agree that butchers and all that have better quality.
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We are both busy all the time Joe, I am gigging in two bands plus I have a full time job and I help out in the shop on Saturdays-Mrs 38th works at least 6 days a week but we make time.To go to a supermarket would have to be a special trip and frankly the places depress the hell out of me. Mrs 38th and I buy wisely and only use fresh stuff-no packaging and I would say not much more expensive at all-but we are straying from Jonathan's original subject somewhat. I think that the likes of Argos, Tescos, Asda will try to sell anything and guitars are a popular buy for teenagers and hence they move in. No doubt, if they aren't already, they'll be flogging funerals before long.
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By the way Dave_mc i can play a Euphonium haha.
interesting. first instrument that came into my head. :)
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My first guitar was a £17 argos acoustic 8) :lol: I later sold it for £25.
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my first was a Columbus strat copy, with a neck apparently made of rubber and a bridge that seemed to be tin foil covered cardboard! and it cost about £100 near twenty years ago. i got a ten watt single channel transistor combo with it with a "distortion" control (it added wet fart noises) which was another £80. when i see what can be got today for that kind of money i'm astounded! and people still complain!
on topic though, those starter guitars are the bread and butter of the average guitar shop. the fact that the big supermarkets are moving in on it is yet another simple of our ever more homogenised society. soon there will ONLY be Tesco, Sainsbury etc. who'll be happy then when there IS no choice?
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Argos already sells cheap cr@p so I think Tesco will cut into their profits more than guitar shops, never the less they will cut into guitar shop profits
I started on a BC Rich Warlock Bronze, which I borrowed from a mate, so I guess I'm kind of lucky, then after 6 months my mate wanted his guitar back so I got a Jackson RR3 and seriously got the bug, I am however guilty of the try in a shop and then buy online dilemma
money makes the world go round and we live in a competitive environment
I also think there are too many guitarists, we need more bassists and drummers, too many bands out there are looking for new drummers
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Thing is, the average Tesco shelf monkey (no offence to any employees, current or past, here present) hasn't a baldy clue what a guitar should be set like in even the vaguest terms. Given that these instruments are the cheapest dirt they can find (let's not kid ourselves, like, none of us are going to be down to Tesco's hunting around for "a good one"), so the QC is going to be complete pish.
Now, when Little Johnny fecks his hand up on dodgy fret ends etc. what happens? Bad and all as some of the music shops are, i'd hope in my heart they'd give a guitar a quick eye over before selling it to a kid (or indeed anyone else). Placing such a job in the hands of folk who don't know what the hell they're doing is immensely stupid.
Also, even the most dastatrdly bricks and mortar shop would have the good grace to chuck in a few plectrums, fix dodgy electrics, even wing in a set of strings etc for a new customer (repeat business being the lifeblood). Tesco etc. just don't have the capacity for that kind of thing. And when you inevitably need such things (or a lead that isn't made of candyfloss and spit, as most "starter packs" include by default) where will you have to go?
It's a bad idea, up and down.
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And, having just looked at them there now, barring them being incredibly special in the flesh, those Gibson "GBME" Guitars Argos are selling look completely egregious. It's one thing for Gibson to have one Cadet brand in Epiphone, but saints alive, are things now so bad they feel the need to undercut themselves again, and further sodomise the reputation for quality Gibson used to represent?
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Good post Jonathan.
I have a rather controversial point of view on this.
First, the cheaper an entrance into guitar playing can be made, the better. There shouldn't be major hurdles. More new starters also increases your potential target group by the way :wink:
My own experience, when I started to play, I did not get very good advise from the retail, it was more of a rip-off - luckily I bought a Tokai strat against the advise of the shop guy (because it was red like the one of Mark Knopfler).
What is happening at the moment is an increasing importance of web forums and web sites, clips on youtube and other sites, as well as harmony central reviews etc.
Also it is rather easy to become a semi expert in no time with all the resources that are available on the internet. So today, if someone seriously wants to start guitar, he might go to a shop with already a narrowed down selection of what he wants, and will face a fight between the retailer's recommended models and the web recommendation.
Then the frustration will often be that the models that people want to try are not available, so they will either buy something else or go home and order online.
Probably retail is gonna be replaced by Online in the long term and only the big chains will survive - which is the trend in most businesses. There are always some retailers that stay small but are smart enough to use change for their own advantage.
For example why are delaers not charging for the ability to test an instrument or amplifier? It's degrading its value, so why not charge a fee?
Actually personally I can live with the current development, it is what the community wants, as long as there are still builders and people that repair stuff, which at least here in Brussels, there are plenty (independent from dealers).
The only way to change the development would be through government intervention, e.g. taxes or restrictions, but those are always bad for the consumer.
Reasonable points, but I dont think that internet retail is going to supplant shop-buying. Simple reason being there will aways be a proportion of people (probably higher on a forum with a high ratio of "semi-experts", like this one) that are more experienced, therefore have been burned in untested purchases and insist on trying out gear in person before buying and go for the item in their hands (or what its plugged into) rather than the net.
With amps and electronics this is less of an issue, but plenty of guitarists are wise to the variations in instrument quality out of the same factory and will buy guitars, specifically, that they have played.
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insist on trying out gear in person before buying and go for the item in their hands (or what its plugged into) rather than the net.
I've been lucky with the guitars I've had off the net. There's always the flipside of course, if you can't find somewhere with the guitar you want in stock...
Plus, I got my Av3 from my local music shop, but, because I'd had to order it, never got to try it out...
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Yeah, I've had some good luck and no choice in a couple of things too. But also some dreadfull luck.
Good luck: My RG7321. My drummer has one, and its pretty good for the price, so I took the chance and ordered one myself and its, if anything, better (bar the awfull pickups, but I expected that and they wont be in there long!).
No choice: My Emu 1616M, Adam A7 monitors and NAD C352 amp (to power my DM602s, which I was fortunate enough to be able to hear before I got). There was no way in hell I could, with where I live, try out enough stuff to make a really educated decision, so I read specs, reviews and user testimonials for all sorts of stuff till I coulndt stand the sight of the them any more then made decisions on what to get. I love the gear, but I dont know how good it really is because I've used so little else!!
Bad luck: I ordered a Kramer imperial (explorer with a hetfieldy diamond plate) that had the bridge positioned incorrectly and was impossible to get closer than about 1/4 of tone to correclty intonated. This (plus playing guitars that are of the same model, on the same stand from the same factory that sounded far more different than you would expect) stopped me from buying any more guitars that I havent played first.
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Only bought two guitars on the net...
* '67 Gibson SG junior... amazing resonance, a P90 that was heavy as a whale omelette but unfortunetely no neck angle so the action was still WAY too high with the bridge as low as I could get it. This meant that it was very difficult to play anything in tune above the first few frets. It needed a neck reset really and it would have been immense - but that would've been a shame on a vintage guitar, cost a fortune and devalued it.
* Epi Japan Les Paul junior... very resonant, already upgraded with a Fralin P90 and Jensen PIO caps. Sounds very nice indeed and plays in tune all over the neck. The relief needs sorting as the strings almost choke when fretted on the 1st fret. The P90 doesn't handle stompboxes well, but I always expect to change pickups to BKPs anyway. Can't go wrong for £320
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