Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Twinfan on December 02, 2007, 05:30:24 PM
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I posted this on another forum and though it might be useful here for reference?
Here's a brief and simple/basic rundown of Marshall amp history. (I'll avoid all the minute details and keep it general):
JTM45. Original offset head model. Black tolex with silver grille cloth. 1963 to 1965ish. Based on a Fender Bassman. Two KT-66 output valves. Valve rectifier. 45 watts.
JTM45 MKII. As above, but with the more recognisable 'old Marshall' style cosmetics. 1965 to 1967ish. Same amp internally as above. The Clapton 'Beano' sound.
JTM45/100 or JTM100. 100w version of the JTM45 with four KT-66 output valves. 1966 to 1967ish. Very rare amp as used by The Who, Hendrix and early AC/DC.
JMP Lead (50w - model 1987), Superlead (100w - model 1959), Bass (50w - model 1986), Superbass (100w - model 1992). Usually referred to as a Plexi. Output valves switched to EL34s, two for a 50w and four for a 100w. Solid state rectification. 1967 to 1969. The start of Marshall as most people know them. Bass heads have the same preamp as the JTM amps. The Lead heads have a more treble biased preamp. Used by AC/DC, Eddie Van Halen, Free etc.
JMP non-Master volumes (ali panel versions of Plexis, same model numbers). 1969 to 1981. Essentially the same amps as the Plexis, but less collectable.
JMP Master Volume (50w - model 2204, 100w - model 2203). As the plexi amps, but Lead heads available with master volumes. 1975 to 1981. Used by Thin Lizzy.
JCM800s (same model numbers as the Master Volumes). 1981 onwards. Cosmetics changed to the modern Marshall style, same amps as the ali panels. Used by Zakk Wylde, Kerry King and most 80s rock bands.
Silver Jubilees (50w - model 2550, 100w - model 2555). 1987-1990. Released for the 25th Anniversary of Marshall amps and most came in silver tolex. Based on the JCM800 but with a solid state extra gain stage in the pre-amp (like a built in overdrive pedal). They also have a half power switch. Used by Slash and Joe Bonamassa. (The Slash signature amp from a few years ago is essentially a Jubilee re-issue)
Sounds?
JTMs have the best clean tone (it's essentially a Fender amp.....). Lots of bass and a smoother overall tone. Great blues amp, and a rocker if you add a pedal in front. My favourite Marshall, and I gig a JTM45 clone.
Plexis and the non-master volume ali panels sound broadly similar. More aggressive than the JTMs with more gain, bite and treble. The sound of rock since rock began. They suffer on the clean tones and as such need to be cranked to really shine, then they are awesome. Not the most versatile amp, more of a one trick rock pony.
Master volumes/JCM800s sound pretty much the same. Very pre-amp biased gain and are again the sound of rock. More flexible as you can dial in gain at lower volumes, although they can sound a bit 'fizzy' if you do this. They have a bit more gain the non-master volume amps when you crank the gain dial. Crank the master volume up and these are also awesome amps.
Jubilees do have a sound of their own due to the tweaked pre-amp, but they sound broadly similar to a JCM800.
Summary?
Need a clean tone and lower volume? Get a JTM45 (or a clone) and a pedal or two for gain. The Blackstar HT Dual works well here ;)
Need plenty of volume and gig blues/rock on large stages? Get a non-master volume Lead or Bass head (or a clone) and crank it. Only go for the Super heads if you play BIG venues.
Need plenty of volume, plenty of gain and gig rock/metal on large stages? Get a master volume/JCM800 head (or a clone) and crank it. Again, only go for the Super heads if you play BIG venues.
Jubilees are a taste of their own and can/have been used for blues through to heavy rock. They're a "try it and see if you like it" amp although their rareity means they're expensive.
Here endeth today's lesson in Marshalls :)
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I found that interesting, thanks Twin.
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Nice to hear a more practical approached summary!
Allthough the JCM800 does sound different then a master plexi to some degree(fat belly effect of the preamp :lol: ), one can easily get it to sound like a plexi with some tweaking.
The JTM's have that wonderfull round and airy tone IMO. I have a JTM bluesbreaker RI(early 90s) 2x12 combo which is a tip to look into because they turn up cheap once in a while and are absolutely gorgeous to play. It is however a reissue so there are some small differences to the real thing.
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Thanks guys. Like I say, it's a general summary for the uninitiated and wasn't meant to be "The History of Marshall" book by Michael Doyle in one internet posting ;)
The specs changed all the time and there are some more subtle differences, but for the general masses a 2203 JMP Master Volume from the early seventies is pretty much the same amp as a 2203 JCM800 (for example). I've also left out loads of other models as they're not common enough to crop up in forum questions that often!
:)
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nice one Andy...they end summary is helping mate
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Andy? Who is this Andy of which you speak?
:lol:
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Cheers Dave, very interesting! :D
I'm planning on getting that Michael Doyle book at some point. My amp knowledge is sorely lacking.
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The Doyle book is pretty good but doesn't go into the REAL technical differences between the models (the stuff that geeks like me want to know ;)).
However it'll give you a good overview of everything, what the major differences are between models, and the history of hte company etc. Its certainly worth a read.
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Sounds OK for me - I don't want to get too much into the technicalities of amps. There aren't enough hours in the day.
And unless I move house at some point I'll hardly ever get to actually hear an amp anyway. :(
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sorry....I keep doing this you know..old age etc & every other excuse going :oops:
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Thanks for this, I always get confused as to what actually a plexy is, what a JMP etc.
What about the VM? Shouldn't that be mentioned as a higher gain Plexi/800 style amp?
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I've stopped at the JCM800 as it's up to this point that most people have confusion over what model is what. After the 800s were the 900s and the DSL/TSL/Vintage Modern/JVM/vintage reissues etc.
The ones I've listed are the classic Marshalls that get asked about the most.
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sorry....I keep doing this you know..old age etc & every other excuse going :oops:
Come on - admit it - you're really Trigger from Only Fools and Horses :lol:
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sorry....I keep doing this you know..old age etc & every other excuse going :oops:
Come on - admit it - you're really Trigger from Only Fools and Horses :lol:
:D :D :D
there is no come back to that. Wanna see my brush?
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There were also the JTM45s with EL34s, then JTM50s (essentially JTM45s with solid state rectification).
Don't forget the early 2203 circuit where they just added a master volume on a SLP (basically what I've done to my Superbass). This didn't last long before they cascaded the first gain stage for the 2203/2204 tone we all know and love.
What about the Silver Jubilee's Dave - surely Marshall's last great amp ???
(edit): and what about the 200w Majors and the 'Pig' ???
:twisted:
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Great!You read my mind,Twinfan...I wanted to ask for someone to do just that 8) .Maybe somebody could continue the listing of Marshall's as everything is not yet clear?Like those 2203,2204 terms etc..For exemple,there seems to be many different types of JCM800 etc..Thanks ! 8)
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Did you not read my post HTH? It's not a complete list it's a simple summary ;)
...(I'll avoid all the minute details and keep it general)...
I've updated the post to include the 2203/2204 references for Viking. Plus I've added the Silver Jubilees...
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Did you not read my post HTH? It's not a complete list it's a simple summary ;)
...(I'll avoid all the minute details and keep it general)...
I've updated the post to include the 2203/2204 references for Viking. Plus I've added the Silver Jubilees...
And during '67 then changed the cathode arrangement on the first gain stage to... :roll: :lol: I don't read stuff properly - I still skip-read, it's a hangover from my Uni days :wink:
The JTM50s do have a seperate model number so I thought they were worth mentioning. They were the first solid state rectified Marshalls afterall and are the first instance of THAT EL34 Marshall RAWK tone imo.
The JTM45s changed to EL34s late on, but the valve rectifier still makes a noticeable difference, as did the output transformer change for the EL34s (rarther than the earlier KT66 OT)
The Majors and Pigs I just put in to wind you up :lol:
:twisted:
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The Black Flag JTM50s are a transition between the JTM45 and the Plexi 50. They get left out as "minute detail" ;)
I think we've bored everyone else now????
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Oh, and don't think that all the JMP master volumes were EL34 tubed either. I've a '79 model that came with 5881 valves as standard.........
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Most of the UK ones did. US spec was 5881. They were stronger and didn't break in shipping across the pond...
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Just a thought here, from the change over from plexi's 4 inputs to the jcm800's 2 inputs, which category do the 800's inputs fit into?
The plexi 'ordinary', 'Bright' or a compromise?
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the 800's input are a hi-gain and lo-gain. originally they were designed with the 'high' input for singlecoils and 'low' for humbuckers, as humbuckers are generally louder.
However, people usually just use the high input whatever (we all know what that sounds like), although i really like the low input aswell for more clean and plexi territory.
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Yeah, I understand that much, but are the high and low inputs like the norma; channel, or bright channel of plexi sounds?
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They're the bright channel will. The normal channel was removed on the 2 input amps.
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Thanks for that, just came up in my head as I was trying to sleep, and couldn't sleep til 2, so I was really wondering.
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I've been reading my Marshall book and the JTM45 sounds like a great partner for my JCM900.
I'd also like a JMP 50 watt also.
I really dig the sound of these 2.
'72 Marshall JMP 50 with ultimate attenuator.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CiWLnYU6JBQ
'75 Marshall JMP 50 watt with THD Hotplate
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lea4OdcvkpE&feature=related
I'm going off of memory but I believe those are RY's in his Paul.
I've been contemplating a hotplate. I had one in my hands yesterday but I really want to hear it with my amp before I buy it.
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I really dig the sound of these 2.
'72 Marshall JMP 50 with ultimate attenuator.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CiWLnYU6JBQ
'75 Marshall JMP 50 watt with THD Hotplate
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lea4OdcvkpE&feature=related
I'm going off of memory but I believe those are RY's in his Paul.
He seems to get a great sound whatever amp he plays - listen to his Elmwood Modena and Wizard Classic clips.
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The Export Marshalls to the US had 6550s right through the JMP era, never heard of 5881s used in Marshalls as a stock valve until Marshall changed to them in the early 90s.
:twisted:
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Ooops - got my valves mixed up :oops:
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:lol:
i have no knowledge of this stuff, you guys are awesome, haha!
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The Export Marshalls to the US had 6550s right through the JMP era, never heard of 5881s used in Marshalls as a stock valve until Marshall changed to them in the early 90s.
:twisted:
Mine definitely is standard with 5881's. It even has it screen printed on the front just above the 'JMP' . There's also a Marshall sticker on the chassis stating that it must not be re-valved with anything other than 5881's. I must have a really rare and ultra valuable price of Marshall Rock and Roll History- I'll start the bidding............ :D
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The Export Marshalls to the US had 6550s right through the JMP era, never heard of 5881s used in Marshalls as a stock valve until Marshall changed to them in the early 90s.
:twisted:
Mine definitely is standard with 5881's. It even has it screen printed on the front just above the 'JMP' . There's also a Marshall sticker on the chassis stating that it must not be re-valved with anything other than 5881's. I must have a really rare and ultra valuable price of Marshall Rock and Roll History- I'll start the bidding............ :D
What year is yours? - the 90s Marshalls had that sticker on the front. Also what model is yours?
:twisted:
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My JCM900 has the 5881 sticker on the front.
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Its a 1979 model according to the paper sticker on the chassis. The serial number places it as a 1979 also. I bought it secondhand in 1983 when I didn't know an EL34 from a, well, 5881!
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Its a 1979 model according to the paper sticker on the chassis. The serial number places it as a 1979 also. I bought it secondhand in 1983 when I didn't know an EL34 from a, well, 5881!
So it has one of those stickers that the JCM900s had on the front in the 90's saying '5881 equipped' ??? - pictures?
I must say, I've never heard of a '79 JMP with a sticker on the front saying 5881-equipped. It's even more wierd since EL34s were in plentifull supply, hell - Marshall were still fitting Mullards and Siemens EL34s in '79.
Are you sure it hasn't been converted in the 90s when there was that EL34 drought?
:twisted:
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No conversion, as I said I bought it in 1983 when it had original Tung Sols!
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No conversion, as I said I bought it in 1983 when it had original Tung Sols!
I suppose there can always be oddballs. Still, to the best of my knowledge Marshall did not use 6L6s on a regular basis. Someone could easily have put them in the amp, not necesarily the original valves.
Still, some nice valves to have - Tung Sol 6L6s rule.
:twisted:
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Ill bet you could custom order any minor changes made to the standard line, would be logical IMO. My '90 bluesbreaker reissue has 6L6's but i dont have a clue if they were in there originally. It does sound somewhere in between marshall and fender which is pretty unique IMO.
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Ill bet you could custom order any minor changes made to the standard line, would be logical IMO. My '90 bluesbreaker reissue has 6L6's but i dont have a clue if they were in there originally. It does sound somewhere in between marshall and fender which is pretty unique IMO.
The Bluesbreaker RI's always came with Sovtek 5881s from what I can remember - I know mine did, as have all the one's I've worked on since.
You can put 6L6s in them with no problems, they're the same family of valve. I used to run small bottle Philips 6L6WGBs in mine and it was a bang-on 'early ZZ Top' amp.
:twisted:
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OOHHHHH now youve done it!
You know im looking for a strat right and that BB sound youre talking about would be perfect for the sound i hope i can get from the strat. I also do like those beards alot, so it would be a double win changing those valves......
Even more to dig into HELP!!!
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You're giving me gas too for the early ZZ tone!
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pock pock pock ZZ Top tone! cluck cluck cluck
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lmao, yep those small bottle 6L6WGBs are great for that raunchy early ZZ vibe and break up really easy.
my fave valves in those amps however are the Chinese (Valve Art) KT66s - they're tighter with more headroom (great for AC/DC).
:twisted:
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my fave valves in those amps however are the Chinese (Valve Art) KT66s - they're tighter with more headroom (great for AC/DC)
Correct! I have them in my JTM45.
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im tossing up at the moment if I should get an older marshall next year or so.. I really like marshalls especially the 800s and SLPs
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just one thing the JTM 45 is a 30 watt amp and not 45W. Actually testing mine I can get 27watts. I have played around with output transformers and found all kinds of results based on the different clones around today
It really is a sweet and very versatile amp.
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They vary, depending on components and valves used. Around 35w is a fairly 'normal' output. My JTM45/100 (when it's built) will probably be around 65 watts not 100.
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hi twin fan,
how are you measuring that output?
cheers
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sorry also meant to ask what load?
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I'm not measuring anything! Just going by what I've read in several places and what I've been told by people.
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Hi Twin fan,
when you measure them you'll be very lucky indeed to get 35w, as I said I can get 27 from mine and 19 from my BFDR, Still loud though!
enjoy your JTM 45 they really are the business amps. Let us know how you get on with the build
Good luck
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The fairly conservative output on the JTM45 is because of the OTs used. The primary Z used (8k) isn't really optimum for the best power transfer.
Marshall solved this later on when they changed to EL34s by choosing the right OT. The EL34 50w OTs had a primary Z of 3.5k which gives 'at least' 50w on the earlier heads with high B+ (a bit less on the early 70s 50w heads with lower B+)
:twisted:
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The fairly conservative output on the JTM45 is because of the OTs used. The primary Z used (8k) isn't really optimum for the best power transfer.
Marshall solved this later on when they changed to EL34s by choosing the right OT. The EL34 50w OTs had a primary Z of 3.5k which gives 'at least' 50w on the earlier heads with high B+ (a bit less on the early 70s 50w heads with lower B+)
:twisted:
spot on,! but it does make for a great sound, and it's still loud enough to use with a Live drummer no problem.
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That depends on your drummer ;)
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thanks for that, really interesting info there!
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The fairly conservative output on the JTM45 is because of the OTs used. The primary Z used (8k) isn't really optimum for the best power transfer.
Marshall solved this later on when they changed to EL34s by choosing the right OT. The EL34 50w OTs had a primary Z of 3.5k which gives 'at least' 50w on the earlier heads with high B+ (a bit less on the early 70s 50w heads with lower B+)
:twisted:
spot on,! but it does make for a great sound, and it's still loud enough to use with a Live drummer no problem.
Heh, we'll see how loud it is when I've got my JTM45/100 up and running.
I have no need for another amp but Twinfan got me GASing for a 45/100. I'd originally planned a dual OT version but it looks like I've secured a really good deal on some b-stock trannies (bent bell-end feet, missing screws and the 4ohm tap cut short). I can live with those 'issues' in order to get the trannies cheap.
:twisted:
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Nice move matey! Mine should be completed in Feb sometime :D
You'll probably have yours done first? You'll have to let me know how it sounds in person.....
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informative.. nice to see this kinda stuff.
already knew it but still useful.
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what about the early 80s JCM800s with no master volume and pre-amp control.. and 4 inputs?
aka the JCM800 MkII's
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what about the early 80s JCM800s with no master volume and pre-amp control.. and 4 inputs?
aka the JCM800 MkII's
I've had one, they're just the 1959 model with the JCM800 cosmetics. Mine was a gain monster/total beast.
Most people looking for that 'plexi' tone would rule these out but they'd be well advised to check them out while they're still priced sensible.
:twisted:
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just got one, really looking forward to giving it a spin.
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Not a hugely successful model but the Marshall Artiste (http://www.drtube.com/marshall.htm#Artiste) was in production from 1971 to 1978.
I've got a 1974 2040 model (50W 2x12) combo with Celestion Greenbacks. Pretty bassy and by nature very clean but used with a THD Hotplate I can get some sweet natural distortion from it, though it's not exactly screaming.
With a Tube Screamer in front it's more flexible. :)
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Not a hugely successful model but the Marshall Artiste (http://www.drtube.com/marshall.htm#Artiste) was in production from 1971 to 1978.
I've got a 1974 2040 model (50W 2x12) combo with Celestion Greenbacks. Pretty bassy and by nature very clean but used with a THD Hotplate I can get some sweet natural distortion from it, though it's not exactly screaming.
With a Tube Screamer in front it's more flexible. :)
glad you like that amp, I'm sure you can coax some decent tones out of it.
that's the amp that Jim Marshall lists as his least favourite Marshall ever made (yikes!)