Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: sambo on December 02, 2007, 05:32:06 PM
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Ok so I want to bring my Burny LP up to its full potential over Christmas this year. One of the areas I was looking to upgrade was the frets. I've heard quite a few stories on here about how people have got various fretwire upgrades/changes and how it's really worthwhile. However, I have NO idea where to start in that department really...
Stainless steel? That's for kitchens....?
6100? Isn't that some kind of Peavey.... ?
'Dunlop'? I thought they made cheap trainers....?
What does all this mean!??!?! :lol: :lol: :oops: :lol:
So, fretwire upgrades; worth the money? If so, what to go for? What varies between different kinds/guages/brands of fretwire?
And also, what exactly is the purpose of a fret dress? In my head it just means "makes guitar play better"... :lol:
Cheers in advance guys,
sam.
:lol:
P.S I feel like a right tit for asking such silly questions, but hey... that's what this forum is for... it means I don't have to be embarrassed in the real world... :lol::D
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Are the frets on the guitar in need of a refret? - if not i wouldnt bother changing them
warmoth has some good info on teh most common sizes and a bit on stainless steel frets
http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/necks/necks.cfm?fuseaction=fretsize
personally i dont like SS frets. they add brightness which doesnt work for me - some people like that. they are also much harder to work with when installing
Some fretwire is cheaper and wears easier than others but the dunlop stuff is pretty good - as is most of the fretwire you can buy off a guitar - some cheap guitars come with butter for frets though
after frets have been levelled they lose the round (or somtimes pyramid) shape on top called the crown. this needs to be re-crowned. A fret dress varies depending on who is doing it but when i do it it will include a levelling, recrowning and polishing - someplaces might not be so thorough so its worth asking whats included.
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Thanks Wez. That clears some stuff up for me.
It's not in urgent need of a refret, but probably will need one in the not-TOO-distant future.
And if brightness is the main attractive property of SS frets I'd probably give them a miss too.
One other stupid question; what about size/'gauge' (is it gauge for fretwire?)?
What do bigger frets actually mean in terms of playability? For example that 6105, "narrow and tall" on Warmoth... what effect does that have on playing?
Cheers again.
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i think the main reason most people go for SS frets is because they wear a hell of a lot better so will stay perfectly smooth for longer. if they didnt affect the sound i would be a bit more sold on them.
really it just affects the feel of how everything plays - i will let other people comment on that because it comes down to technique as well, and i aint much of a player. I generally just go with what people ask for
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Ok cool. Thanks mate.
:)
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I found SS made no tonal difference but just made bends a lot easier. I would recommend it, very smooth feel. I'm planning another build and that will feature SS frets.
Were the frets on your Burny worn or do you just don't like them?!
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Okay Sambo - I will chime in and add my own take on this
Thanks to Wez for much of the basic info...
Refrets
If you have a guitar whose frets are worn out or very uneven or simply not to your liking, then a refret is possibly in order.
There are wide number of fretwire gauges and types made worldwide
Some is American made, some is Dutch and much is far Eastern
Jim Dunlop wire has a good reputation (yes - the same company that lso makes picks and pedals and all that stuff)
Wire types
Most popular fretwire is made of "nickel silver" , although some players like the stainless (johnny Mac for one) and Warwick have long used a brass wire similar to what church bells are made of (apparently)
The stainless is very hardwearing, and strings seem to glide over it very easily, but it does sound bright and as far as installing it goes it is much harder work , and wears out your tools really quickly (which is one reason why we charge more for a refret with it - as we soon have to replace our costly tools after doing work with stainless.)
Wire sizes
Wire comes in a number of sizes - the main differences being in the height f the crown of the wire and also the width of the crown.
There are also a number of differences in the size of the tang bit that goes into the fret slot but that is more for the luthier to deal with rather than the player.
A taller wire will allow you to get more fingertip behind the string when bending which means that you can possibly have a lower action but still bend easily. It also reduces fingertip contact with the board which should reduce playing friction - although some player s may have to adjust technique a bit if they are used to feeling the wood under their fingertips.
Width of the wire can affect the feel and ease of using the wire. It also increases the fret's mass and can aid with sustain to a small extent.
None of this matters if the wire isnt put in well - a poorly done fret job can feel like cr@p no matter what fret size is used. A well done fret job can make even the biggest wire seem no so intrusive as the hand seems to glide over it.
I like using the biggest of wires like Dunlop 6100 or Dunlop 6000 on my own personal guitars as they allow me to play easily, and have an easy left hand technique - its what Tim likes on his guitars too.
Low/Vintage Wire - Dunlop 6230(old Fender & Martin) , Dunlop 6130 (70s Gibson)
Medium wire Dunlop 6150, Dunlop 6155 (as used by PRS)
Medium Jumbo Dunlop 6110, Dunlop 6120
Tall Jumbo wire Dunlop 6105 (thin) Dunlop 6100 & Dunlop6000
Fret Dressing
A fretdress is the process of getting all the frets on a even level with each other by levelling out any high and low spots. Also requires the frets to be re-crowned to a smooth dome shape to give more accurate intonation and a smooth feel. This process is often required to be able to get the best out of a set-up as it eliminates the high spots that may stop you getting the low action that you wish for.
A fret dress is often required where a guitars fingerboard has srunk a little as wood doesn't always shrink in an even way and this often results in high and low spots on a guitar neck.
We use the Erlewine neck jig as this gives a lot more control over the process and also allows us to simulate string tension on the neck whilst doing a fret dress,
(http://www.stewmac.com/catalog/images_1lg/5252_1lg.jpg)
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Cheers guys!
Feline you pretty much nailed everything I was asking. :)
Now to head over to your site to check some bound-fretboard 6105 re-fret prices... :D
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I was surprised that my Page-Edwards came with really low frets - perfectly crowned and polished and rounded but quite thin and low, so in the beginning I got stuck on the rosewood when bending, but after a while I adjusted and now I love the feel. Actually I am not getting along so well with high frets, especially if they are so wide on the top (that's the crown I suppose?)
I think I have a case of the one you described, my Les Paul Special might have some bumps due to wood changes.
But it's a bound fretboard, which is why I hesitate to have it done, it will be >200 EURs.
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I like using the biggest of wires like Dunlop 6100 or Dunlop 6000 on my own personal guitars as they allow me to play easily, and have an easy left hand technique - its what Tim likes on his guitars too.
That blue (turquoise? aquamarine?) Lion of yours has the biggest frets I've ever seen in my life! :)
I was surprised that my Page-Edwards came with really low frets - perfectly crowned and polished and rounded but quite thin and low, so in the beginning I got stuck on the rosewood when bending, but after a while I adjusted and now I love the feel.
Sounds similar to my "JB" Edwards, in fact I think all my Edwards guitars have roughly the same size fretwire.
My personal favourite is the medium jumbo on current Fenders - they always feel just right. But I also really like the 9.5" radius, so that probably plays a part.
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Yes - the turquoise beast does have Dunlop 6000
For price info:
A bound neck refret (includes fret dress and setup) is £150
Unbound is about £130
Some necks need the fingerboard planing /levelling which adds about another £20
Some maple necks may also require the fingerboard to be refinished or re-lacquered
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Cheers for that Feline.
I'm gonna PM you for a quote on something anyway, just to see what my ideal upgrades would set me back.
Just out of interest, what are the perks of lower frets? Does that make it easier/harder to fret a note?
I'm trying to work it out logically in my head but it's really confusing me...
:oops:
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Just out of interest, what are the perks of lower frets? Does that make it easier/harder to fret a note?
let me give you my 2c on this: lower frets are old fashioned, they aren't for shredders but on the other hand they give you the touch of wood on your fretting fingers, which is a different feel and sound, at least I think it sounds warmer, woodier.
The issue is that if you use too much pressure, it's hard to bend notes.
On high frets, you have to control the pressure of your fretting hand, as like on scalopped fretboards, you can alter the pitch of a fretted note with too much pressure.
I have guitars with different heights of frets and actually prefer it a bit thinner and lower, so vintage style.
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Thanks hunter. After your very eloquent description I would have to say I'm probably more in the vintage-low camp with you too.
Although bends are an aspect of my playing that I have struggled with to some extent, so a higher wire may help with that.
hmmm!
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Does the bound fret board price include the fret edge binding thing?
been thinking about the fret edge thing, if its bad or good really.
A lot of those MIJ guitars have fret edge don't they?
so does the binding get made to look like normal binding, or get reformed over the fret after a refret?
slightly off topic maybe, but maybe Sambo's has it
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:D Sambo try out a Ibanez RG model as there fitted with large/jumbo fret wire. Gibson/PRS are fiitted with medium & Fender Strats tend to be smaller fret wire & see what you think before you plumb for one or the other. You can also change fret wire on a guitar. Johnathon [ Feline ] did this on my custom build. He fit the guitar from fret 1 to 15 with standard medium frets & from 15 to 24 he fit slightly narrower fret wire, because it isn`t as wide but is the same height it ment that with my sausages for fingers it made playing up high on the "Preacher" that much easier. I`m sorry i cant remeber off hand which way round it was but mine were a combination of Dunlop 6100 & 6150 i think :P
:D 8)
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JT that is scary.... I was just browsing the Feline site and came across your guitar... and noticed the fret size changing down the neck.... then I come on here, and you have posted exactly that!
:o :o :o
lol
PRS' are damn near my ideal playability if we're speaking broadly, so that reinforces the fact that I probably wouldn't get on too well with bigger wire.
(maybe I would, who knows). I'll try out an RG next time I get a chance.
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You can also change fret wire on a guitar. Johnathon [ Feline ] did this on my custom build. He fit the guitar from fret 1 to 15 with standard medium frets & from 15 to 24 he fit slightly narrower fret wire, because it isn`t as wide but is the same height it ment that with my sausages for fingers it made playing up high on the "Preacher" that much easier.
I had one of those Yamaha Billy Sheehan basses (until recently) and that was the same - thinner wire on the top few frets (plus some scalloping between those same frets). It made it much easier to play, and sustain, the high notes.
I think Jake E Lee had 2 sizes of fretwire on his Strats, too.
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I think Jake E Lee had 2 sizes of fretwire on his Strats, too.
On his ESP production strats. Think it was gibson type 0-12, 13-21 was fender I think
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my fav fret wire is 6105 tall and thin... though i prefer steel frets over nickel
i like it tall because it makes it easy to do vibratos and bends, and yes, if you push too hard it will go out of tune, but if you have tight, thick strings, it will be a difficult task to pull off :P
i prefer steel frets over nickel for the sole reason that they last WAYYYY longer. My friend has had a guitar with nickel frets for 3 years, and has already had it redressed twice, and they're still chipping down. Safe to say he has alot of dead frets now, and it just doesnt play like it used to. Brightness in a guitar can be overcome with different pickups, thicker strings, or different choice of wood, so the sound change that the frets give doesn't concern me.
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Cheers for that Canadia man. Interesting to know that they do actually last that much longer.
Hmmm.
I like the idea of all stainless steel, gibson 1-12, strat 13-22 gauge frets...
(on my Burny LP).
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Cheers for that Canadia man. Interesting to know that they do actually last that much longer.
Hmmm.
I like the idea of all stainless steel, gibson 1-12, strat 13-22 gauge frets...
(on my Burny LP).
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
If you want to do that I usually recommend 1-15 being Dunlop 6100 and 16-22 being Dunlop 6105
Both wires are 0.055" tall so the height remains the same
The 6100 is 0.110" wide whilst the 6105 is only 0.090" wide and gives the feeling of being narrower.
I haven't seen any 6105 in stainless yet - but I can enquire again, but we do already have 6100 in SS
A stainless refret is £200 compared to the usual £150
Fret wear is a very personal thing and depends how much you play etc
The nickel silver frets (sometimes called German Silver) are actually predominantly steel with about 18% nickel in them and no silver content at all.
Stainless frets cause your strings to wear ot quicker - there is no winning combination because you have metal against metal contact and one or the other (string or fret will wear)
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:D In all the years i`ve been playing i`ve never had a guitar re-fretted. It takes a hell of a long time to really ware a fret out to the point that its really noticable. I wonder how long on average it takes ?
I`ve had fretwork done but never re-fretted.
Correction : having read Johnathons reply i think Sambo you`ll find mine was 6105 not 6150 [ Doh ! ] but yer it does make a difference & i`d deffinatley do it again in the future.
As for jumbo frets against smaller frets etc etc. I`ve just bought a Ibanez Giger model which is fitted with jumbo frets & you can & do adjust to `em but like you i prefer medium frets, with jumbo you feel like your fingers are in a valley when your playing ! :P
:D 8)
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I had my strat refretted with 6100's after having the tiny vintage style frets. It makes it much easier to play and I don't get cramp from playing the strat anymore. I read some where that SRV had bass frets on his strat necks :lol:
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I have 2 necks with SS 6105 which is really more like 6150 than 6105. I had the stainless steel because both have exotic fingerboards that I didn't want to have to worry about with a refret. I have had several guitars refretted through the years and can highly recommend Feline for this, as Jonathan made an unplayable neck perfect.
I am just getting the 6100/6105 combo on a new guitar, but since it is still being made, I am not sure what the feel will be like. I have all sizes with the different guitars that I have. All my vintage Fenders have either been refretted or need a refret! I am putting 6105 in them as I like the feel of it and visually it is not as jumbo looking.
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I don't know much about fretwires.
I'd like to know what fret profile and type Warren DeMartini uses in his Charvel guitars though.
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I don't know much about fretwires.
I'd like to know what fret profile and type Warren DeMartini uses in his Charvel guitars though.
Chances are it was similar to Dunlop 6100 or Dunlop 6000 - unless Warren had it done differently.......
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I have had several guitars refretted through the years and can highly recommend Feline for this, as Jonathan made an unplayable neck perfect.
Thanks Phil - glad that neck worked out again
Fretting is something that I take a lot of pride in and consider to be one of my strengths as a maker and repairer.
I believe that the frets and how they play are the most important thing to a player so the guitar maker/repairer better take a lot of care when doing it.
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A stainless refret is £200 compared to the usual £150
Stainless frets cause your strings to wear ot quicker - there is no winning combination because you have metal against metal contact and one or the other (string or fret will wear)
this is true, but i see it this way. A few extra strings a year is cheaper than £150 every 2-3 years from fret wear. Especially when you can buy strings in bulk making them about £1-2 a set heheh.
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I remember Warren said that if you looked at his frets from the side it looks like the end of a pick - but it may have been George Lynch who said that, I can't remember - or it may have been EVH even.
I think you should offer to build him a guitar - (which he has to pay for ). It would be good for your company.
Thanks for your tip about refretting, I guess I have need for it already on one of my old guitars - it has weird frets though they are rectangular in profile and really thin - not like these big trendy jumbo frets that every new guitar has. On a 24.75 inch scale and jumbo frets there's no room for the finger board at the high frets.
Jumbo frets are good for sounding like Kirk Hammett imitating Dave Mustaine on Kill Em All though.