Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: carlaz on December 03, 2007, 05:44:11 PM
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I'm pretty sure one of the original machine heads (the G-string one) on my 1990 Gibson Les Paul Standard is a bit screwed. That machine broke on me when I was in the UK in the late-90s; I had it repaired once in 2000 in the US when I was back in Boston for a while, and again in the UK 2006 when I noticed it was acting wonky again. In both cases, I trusted the luthiers' assertion they could fix the given machine head without replacing it, though in both cases, whatever fix they made "degraded" over time. I think there's just something fundamentally screwed with it and it should just be replaced. When the string tension is slackened, it actually wobbles a bit, which is rather alarming. In case you have lots of time on your hands ;) there is a little diagnostic video here: http://www.carlaz.com/music/images/headstock_peg_wobble.avi
This time, I think I'd best do the work myself -- mostly because I'm in Colombia :) and while there are likely to be some decent luthiers in Bogotá, I have no idea who they are! So I'm thinking I should just order some "drop-in" style replacement machine heads to my US mailing address so I can pick them up next time I'm up there. I really don't want to get into trying to enlarge the holes for the machine heads on my own!
I think I've got "Kluson-style" machine heads, but here are some (still) images:
(http://www.carlaz.com/music/images/headstock_back.jpg)
(http://www.carlaz.com/music/images/headstock_front.jpg)
So I'm interested to know what you BKP users think are the best-quality replacement machine heads that could directly replace my stock ones without serious surgery? :)
I understand Gotoh make some Kluson-style locking tuners that can go in without re-drilling, and that sounds good to me, but I've got almost zero expertise on this stuff! I'm not too worried about the "look", just the quality -- and straightforward install. ;) If folks think Grover make better drop-in tuners than the Gotoh Klusion-styles, then I'm cool with that!
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Hard to tell from the pic - are the bushings the press-in type or the screw-in type? Modern Gibson Kluson-style tuners are usually the latter, but I don't know what they were using in 1990 (assuming they're the original tuners?).
If they're press-in, I'd go for Gotoh SD90 Magnum Locks. If they're screw-in, TonePros Klusons. :D
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Hard to tell from the pic - are the bushings the press-in type or the screw-in type? Modern Gibson Kluson-style tuners are usually the latter, but I don't know what they were using in 1990 (assuming they're the original tuners?).
If they're press-in, I'd go for Gotoh SD90 Magnum Locks. If they're screw-in, TonePros Klusons. :D
Tonepros do push in ones too!
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Tonepros do push in ones too!
True! :D
I was just thinking if Carl was going for locking tuners, the TonePros are only available with screw-in bushings (whereas the locking Gotohs only come with push-in ones).
For non-locking push-in tuners, you could go either way. Personally I like the Gotohs because they have that vintage-style "bent metal" construction, whereas the TonePros are cast like modern tuners.
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Ah - good point!
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Hard to tell from the pic - are the bushings the press-in type or the screw-in type? Modern Gibson Kluson-style tuners are usually the latter, but I don't know what they were using in 1990 (assuming they're the original tuners?).
Erm .... I dunno! :oops: I suppose I have to try pulling the thing apart to to be sure. In the unlikely event that one can tell by looking at the exterior, here's a slightly fuzzy but full-res close-up of one of them:
(http://www.carlaz.com/music/images/headstock_peg_closeup.jpg)
I'm pretty sure my tuners are the original ones, and I understand that most '80s Gibson tuners were screw-in .... But I'm pretty clueless here! :) I don't know what they used in 1990 or since.
If they're press-in, I'd go for Gotoh SD90 Magnum Locks. If they're screw-in, TonePros Klusons. :D
There seem to be several TonePros Kluson type tuner variants .... I guess I need to ascertain whether I've got screw-ins or push-ins. The TonePros TPKB3L seem to be the locking ones, though the whole B3 series seems intended to fit 25/64ths (.391) holes, which I have no idea whether I have or not. Maybe that becomes clear if I know for sure whether its a screw-in or push-in?
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Mmm, checking the serial number on the headstock suggests the guitar is actually 1992, rather than 1990 as I had previously thought. Screw-ins more likely?
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No idea about the tuners... but.... I thought you lived in Cambridge!!!!!????
:lol: :lol: :lol: :? :lol:
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No idea about the tuners... but.... I thought you lived in Cambridge!!!!!????
I did! Until mid-September ... :)
Now I'm in South America. 8)
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Hard to tell from the pic - are the bushings the press-in type or the screw-in type? Modern Gibson Kluson-style tuners are usually the latter, but I don't know what they were using in 1990 (assuming they're the original tuners?).
Erm .... I dunno! :oops: I suppose I have to try pulling the thing apart to to be sure. In the unlikely event that one can tell by looking at the exterior, here's a slightly fuzzy but full-res close-up of one of them
Can you do a pic of the front of the tuner? The screw-in type will have a hexagonal nut with a washer under it, the push-in type will just be a ring surrounding the tuner post.
Those look vintage-style to me, Gotohs or similar. So they're probably press-in bushings with 11/32" holes. If that's the case, you could go for Gotoh SD90-MG (locking) or SD90 (non-locking), or TonePros Kluson TPK33 (non-locking).
But let's see the front of the tuners first! :wink:
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Can you do a pic of the front of the tuner?
Oh, good point! :)
(http://www.carlaz.com/music/images/headstock_peg_closeup_front.jpg)
The screw-in type will have a hexagonal nut with a washer under it, the push-in type will just be a ring surrounding the tuner post.
Those look vintage-style to me, Gotohs or similar. So they're probably press-in bushings with 11/32" holes. If that's the case, you could go for Gotoh SD90-MG (locking) or SD90 (non-locking), or TonePros Kluson TPK33 (non-locking).
Yeah, I'm not seeing anything that looks like a hexagonal nut with a washer underneath. It looks to me like a ring around the post (though the inside of the ring next to the post is raised more, and there's a flatter flange on the outside of the ring further from the post, but it all looks like a single piece to me; I can't see any crack or line between the two "heights" in the ring).
So you're probably right about the press-in bushing ....
Actually, I haven't thought a lot about locking vs. non-locking. It just seemed like locking tuners might be easier and simpler. Anyone have any pros or cons?
I see some web sites overing "Gotoh Vintage Kluson-style Locking Tuners" with a part number "TK0735". Not sure if this is the same as the SD90-MG.
Apart from the cosmetics, cast or "bent metal", any words pro/con for Gotohs or Tonepros?
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OK Carlaz, sit back, it just got more confusing.... :lol:
That looks to me like a conversion bushing. It's where someone has decided they'd prefer vintage-style tuners on a guitar with 25/64" (10mm) holes in the headstock. So you can buy oversized press-in bushings to fit the 25/64" holes.
I'd guess the ring of greyish-looking paint around the bushing is where the finish is lifting a little? That'll be where the washer sat when the guitar had screw-plus-washer bushings.
So, you could use Gotoh SD90s (locking or non-locking) with the existing bushings, but I've found that the holes in conversion bushings are a little oversized for the Gotohs (they'll work, but it looks ugly).
Your best bet is probably TonePros with screw-in bushings, the TPKB3 or TPKB3L sets. I haven't tried them yet but I hear they're very good.
Of course with 25/64" holes you could go for Grovers, Sperzels or whatever you want. But the TonePros will keep the more vintage look.
But I'd take a tuner off and measure the hole at the back first.
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Me.........
I'd stick a set of 18:1 Grover Rotomatics into it. The bushings look like push in replacements so standard Grovers should fit right it, and the single screw of a Grover fits right into the bottom hole of the Kluson screw hole.
Yes you will be able to see half of the top holes from the original Klusons, but that's not an issue as far as I'm concerned. The Grovers look cool, look vintage too, and keep my Les Pauls in tune far better than the Klusons.
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That looks to me like a conversion bushing .... I'd guess the ring of greyish-looking paint around the bushing is where the finish is lifting a little? That'll be where the washer sat when the guitar had screw-plus-washer bushings.
Hmm, yeah, I'd never really paid attention before, but there's a pretty regular ring-like bit of damage to the finish around each of the shafts of the top-side of the headstock. Once-upon-a-time larger washers seem likely. I got the guitar in '94. I think, and the serial number tells me it's a '92; I had assumed it had stock tuners -- but I guess I was wrong about that, too!
Most educational ....
Your best bet is probably TonePros with screw-in bushings, the TPKB3 or TPKB3L sets. I haven't tried them yet but I hear they're very good.
But I'd take a tuner off and measure the hole at the back first.
Great -- trying to figure whether its a 9mm or 10mm hole! ;) Ah, well, it does sound like some exploratory surgery is in order.
At least I see more vendors of Tonepros TPKB3(L) tuners on the web than I did of the Gotoh SD90-MGs. :)
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I'd stick a set of 18:1 Grover Rotomatics into it. The bushings look like push in replacements so standard Grovers should fit right it, and the single screw of a Grover fits right into the bottom hole of the Kluson screw hole.
Interesting ... Doesn't the Jimmy Page signature model LP have Grover tuners of some kind?
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But I'd take a tuner off and measure the hole at the back first.
+1
I have seen the ring of lacquer missing myself a few times but it doesnt mean much - that lacquer can get damaged from when the guitar is assembled in the first place and in time it falls off
Some late 70s /early 80s LP did have the larger bushing size but I couldnt tell you what size hole lurks beneath
Remove a machinehead & measure it to be sure!
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I'd stick a set of 18:1 Grover Rotomatics into it. The bushings look like push in replacements so standard Grovers should fit right it, and the single screw of a Grover fits right into the bottom hole of the Kluson screw hole.
Interesting ... Doesn't the Jimmy Page signature model LP have Grover tuners of some kind?
It does indeed. Grovers are very good tuners, but I'm not fond of them simply because they're really heavy.
Les Pauls aren't prone to neck-heaviness, but they are very hefty guitars. Being relatively weedy, I like to reduce the load as much as possible, and a set of Kluson-types will save you about 4-5 oz compared with a set of Grovers.
(Just personal opinions, of course :) )
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Interesting ... Doesn't the Jimmy Page signature model LP have Grover tuners of some kind?
It does indeed. Grovers are very good tuners, but I'm not fond of them simply because they're really heavy.
Les Pauls aren't prone to neck-heaviness, but they are very hefty guitars. Being relatively weedy, I like to reduce the load as much as possible, and a set of Kluson-types will save you about 4-5 oz compared with a set of Grovers.
(Just personal opinions, of course :) )
The Jimmy Page version uses the Grovers, beause the original Rotomatics were the professional guitarists replacement tuner of choice in the late 60's. Page changed his over, as did Clapton, Beck and even McCartney. They've been fitted as standard onto most Gibson Customs for many a year now.
I agree with Philly that they are certainly heavy, but I've never found a Les Paul to be a nosediver like say an SG, so it doesn't bother me. That solidity and weight is just another reason to trust in them. I'm also 6'5" and big enough to cart around that 14 and a half pound doubleneck that you see in my avatar so I guess weight isn't too much of an issue for me! :P :wink:
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I'm also 6'5" and big enough to cart around that 14 and a half pound doubleneck that you see in my avatar so I guess weight isn't too much of an issue for me! :P :wink:
:lol: You're nearly a foot taller than me! So you can see why I'm preoccupied with keeping the weight down. I try to avoid all guitars heavier than about eight and a half pounds.
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OK, having popped one of the tuners out and measured the hole in the wood on the back of the headstock. I think it's 10mm or maybe even slightly more. Here's a kinda fuzzy closeup (difficult to hold the camera still! ;) of the hole from the back of the headstock:
(http://www.carlaz.com/music/images/headstock_back_hole_closeup.jpg)
You can see the rim of metal down there on the bushing, entering from the top of the headstock. The actual hole in the bushing for the shaft seems much smaller than the hole in the wood: maybe 6mm.
The bushing seems pretty solidly attached. No clue whether it's a push-in or screw in! I'm not quite sure how I'd even try to get it out sensibly .... I suppose maybe tap it out very carefully from the back? Reckon I could put new tuner mechanisms into the existing bushings?
The actual tuner mechanism has "JAPAN" printed on its underside. This suggests to me that it's a Gotoh Kluson, or a Kluson-style made for Gibson by Gotoh in Japan?
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Yeah, I still think that looks like a conversion bushing, and I'm 100% sure it's a push-in one. Good pics by the way, I can never get my camera to focus for close-ups! :)
You could definitely put new Kluson-style tuners into the existing bushings. As I mentioned somewhere above, I found the holes in the conversion bushings a bit oversized for my locking Gotoh SD90s, but I am very fussy about these things. The bushings I have were from Allparts, they're not necessarily exactly the same as yours.
Alternatively, as the holes are 10mm+, you could take out those bushings and the whole world of cast/sealed tuners with screw-in bushings is open to you!
Removing the push-in bushings is usually quite easy. Gotoh actually supply a special tool, which is a small metal rod, narrower than the hole at the back but wider than the hole in the bushing - you could use an old 8mm drill bit as an alternative. Then just place the tool/bit against the base of the bushing from the back of the headstock, and tap (very lightly!) with a hammer. Once the bushing starts to move, it usually comes out really easily.
The only problem could be if the previous owner decided to go a bit over the top and glue the bushings in - they don't normally need it, but you never know. Then it might be best to leave them, or take the guitar to a pro...
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Yeah, I still think that looks like a conversion bushing, and I'm 100% sure it's a push-in one. [...]
You could definitely put new Kluson-style tuners into the existing bushings.
That might be the easiest thing. The Tonepros TPKB3L tuners are surely an improvement no what I've got now and, from what I can tell, ought to just go right in.
Alternatively, as the holes are 10mm+, you could take out those bushings and the whole world of cast/sealed tuners with screw-in bushings is open to you!
Removing the push-in bushings is usually quite easy. [...]
The only problem could be if the previous owner decided to go a bit over the top and glue the bushings in - they don't normally need it, but you never know. Then it might be best to leave them, or take the guitar to a pro...
One of my main goals is not going to a pro -- which I would normally do -- since I don't know anything about the relative reputations of local luthiers. :)
I like the rep of the Grovers, and the weight/non-vintage-look doesn't bother me, but the Tonepros Klusons seem like maybe the simplest, most painless route.
Anyone have any feelings about locking vs. non-locking? I'm sure I've read some reports on the 'net from people who didn't like locking tuners for some reason, but they sound like a useful feature on a hardtail guitar.
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Yeah, I still think that looks like a conversion bushing, and I'm 100% sure it's a push-in one. [...]
You could definitely put new Kluson-style tuners into the existing bushings.
That might be the easiest thing. The Tonepros TPKB3L tuners are surely an improvement no what I've got now and, from what I can tell, ought to just go right in.
'Fraid not :( - the locking TonePros/Klusons only come with the screw-in bushings. If you want locking Kluson-style tuners with the existing bushings, it'd have to be the Gotoh SD90-MG set. They're quite easy to find on eBay if you search for "Gotoh locking" or something.
Anyone have any feelings about locking vs. non-locking? I'm sure I've read some reports on the 'net from people who didn't like locking tuners for some reason, but they sound like a useful feature on a hardtail guitar.
Personally, I love locking tuners, I've got various different types on nearly all my guitars. Basically because I hate the hassle of changing strings with conventional tuners. The only drawbacks I can think of are:
1. Some types (Schaller, Planet Waves) are heavier than conventional tuners because they have big thumbwheels on the back. You can offset this extra weight by replacing the metal tuner buttons with pearloid or ebony ones (top tip! :wink: ).
2. If the locking mechanism were to fail, the posts normally aren't tall enough to wind a string in the conventional way. I've never heard of this happening, though.
3. There may be some sonar-eared Eric Johnson types who think locking tuners affect the tone. That may be true with the heavy thumbwheel-style tuners (Schaller and Planet Waves again, also Sperzel but they're made of light alloy). But other types (Gotoh, Grover, TonePros, PRS) are designed such that they aren't much, if at all, heavier than their conventional equivalents.
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If you want locking Kluson-style tuners with the existing bushings, it'd have to be the Gotoh SD90-MG set. They're quite easy to find on eBay if you search for "Gotoh locking" or something.
Oh, all right. Well, I do indeed see some "Gotoh locking tuners" on eBay that claim to fit into Kluson-style mounting holes on Gibson guitars. No further details about bushings and hole diameters, but I guess we've investigated the existing tuner fittings on my guitar to the point where I can be pretty sure these should just drop right in.
Maybe I can finally ditch that wonky G-string tuner! :)
Personally, I love locking tuners, I've got various different types on nearly all my guitars. Basically because I hate the hassle of changing strings with conventional tuners.
Yeah, that was my feeling. Any slight change that might worry those with bionic ears is gonna be irrelevant to me. :)
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I'll have to wait for a friend traveling over to the States in January to pick them up and bring them back (I'm not willing to risk post coming into Colombia, which can all too often go AWOL!) before I can give 'em go, but hopefully I've only another month or so of wonky G-string tuner. :)
Well, it's been rather more than a month now (I dunno why when I look at this post it says it was made in Dec 2007; it's actually 27 May 08!) , but I finally have my replacement machine heads in hand! I'll have a go at installing them later today. :)
(Darn, it's been so long I forgot I'd need new strings as well! :lol: Have to see what I can do with the old ones and then go hunting for new ones.)
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All right! Got my new tuners installed! :D
As predicted, the new bushings that shipped with the tuners are too small for the holes in the headstock, but the new shafts pretty much fit right in. They seem perhaps very slightly looser in the old bushings than did the old tuners, but not too bad. Eh, what can ya do .... It seems to work just fine, anyway. :)
I really need to put fresh strings in there, but for mo' I've just slipped the old ones back in a tightened things up. Have to give them a little workout now and see if that wonky G-string is finally gone for sure!
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They seem perhaps very slightly looser in the old bushings than did the old tuners, but not too bad. Eh, what can ya do .... It seems to work just fine, anyway. :)
Yeah, I've replaced conventional Gotoh SD90s with SD90-MGs a couple of times now, and although the bushings look the same the locking tuners have ever-so-slightly narrower posts. The non-locking tuners' posts won't fit through the locking tuners' bushings.
I don't know why they couldn't make them the same size, it would've saved on tooling costs!