Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: hunter on December 05, 2007, 01:15:25 PM
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Right, so I don't get this 100% yet.
It seems there are three major ways to wire the tone pot.
1. So called "Modern"
It seems the issue here is that you lose treble when turning down Volume, is that correct?
(http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/images/prewired/lp/lp_wiring_modern.gif)
2. So called "Vintage"
It seems the issue here is that tone and volume pot are kind of interactive. But it seems it retains treble better on the volume pot, is that correct?
(http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/images/prewired/lp/lp_wiring_vintage.gif)
So what do you guys recommend?
Actually I hardly use my tone pots but am concerned about vol losing treble.
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Don't quote me, and I'm probably wrong, but I thought the old style wiring loses treble and the modern wiring doesn't so much...
Again, I could be completely wrong!
Roo
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Hunter,
The way you have the tone pots themselves wired up in those two pics is different. This alone makes absolutely no difference to anything. It's all in the way the volume pot is connected to the tone pot.
Your assumptions are completely correct and it's all down to personal choice. I have several Les Pauls and SGs and they're wired:
Gibson LP std - vintage wiring
Gibson LP Junior Lite - vintage wiring
These are both wired vintage way for a more vintage tone. It retains brightness with the PAFs and P90s and also lowers the pickup output slightly as the pickup sees a more variable load (the tone pot is in parallel to the volume).
Tokai LP std - modern wiring
Pearl LP std - modern wiring
Signature LP std - modern wiring
Gibson LP Special - modern wiring
Tokai SG Special - modern wiring
These are wired in the modern way either because I like the stock tone or because I prefer the more consistent tone roll off. I also like the extra output and fatness that modern wiring gives as the pickup sees a more constant load (the tone pot is in series to the volume). It's a subtle effect but it's there.
Epiphone SG - vintage wiring
Gibson SG - vintage wiring
I've tried both wiring types in both these SGs and preferred vintage each time as they mudded up too much with modern wiring when lowering the volumes. All that mahogany can sound a bit thick.
Overall opinion?
SGs generally sound better with vintage wiring by retaining their highs better. Modern wiring was too muddy for my tastes.
A Les Paul sounds fuller and smoother with modern wiring and is my preferred option. Vintage wiring is brighter, you may need to tweak the tone/volume pots more and with your volume less than 5 rolling off the tone will also reduce volume.
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Ahhh @ TwinFan, that makes sense. Hmmm, well let me first make sure I get proper pots and caps for my Edwards, then I'll try both ways.
Actually, it might be interesting to add a switch just temporarily to try both ways on the fly flipping back and forth ...
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I always use the vintage style - all my guitars sounded louder and more open after doing this.
The highs certainly are retained better than the modern wiring imo even with the pots up full. Technically there shouldn't be much difference, but it IS noticeable to my ears.
:twisted:
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I always use the vintage style - all my guitars sounded louder and more open after doing this.
The highs certainly are retained better than the modern wiring imo even with the pots up full. Technically there shouldn't be much difference, but it IS noticeable to my ears.
:twisted:
BIG TIME. I have just rewired my Edwards and it's like someone took a blanket off the amp. Now I wait for new pots (ordered a set from RS Guitarworks, yummy!)...
Also rewired my BKP-92 equipped LP special, BIG difference, much more open, great cleans too - seems like this brings me much closer to the sounds I am after in general.
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Hmm this is on the gibson site, but it's different, cap soldered to the tone pot. Is this Vintage or Modern style or sth else?
http://www.gibson.com/Files/schematics/lpdswiring.gif
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Must admit this is something I've never experimented with - I think all my guitars have the "modern" wiring. I must give it a go.
:?: What happens if you have "modern" wiring on one pickup and "vintage" on the other? Any weird interactivity in the middle switch position?
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:?: What happens if you have "modern" wiring on one pickup and "vintage" on the other? Any weird interactivity in the middle switch position?
Then it only works thru a Marshall Vintage Modern
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
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:?: What happens if you have "modern" wiring on one pickup and "vintage" on the other? Any weird interactivity in the middle switch position?
Then it only works thru a Marshall Vintage Modern
hahaha, good one ... also when I was googling for the wiring options I only got Marshall ads as returns :P
In fact I wired the good ole Epi like this: neck vintage, bridge modern, works great!
What do the pros say, Jonathan, Tim, anyone?
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Hmm this is on the gibson site, but it's different, cap soldered to the tone pot. Is this Vintage or Modern style or sth else?
http://www.gibson.com/Files/schematics/lpdswiring.gif
That's the horrible "reverse wired" schematic. I believe it sucks tone BIG time, but I've never tried it. I don't think it's used much for a reason!
Interesting that you find you like vintage wiring Hunter. I think it has a lot to do with the clarity of the amp you're using. I have a very clear amp/cab/speaker setup and the modern wiring adds a bit of "warmth". I would imagine a Cornford or Bogner that are a bit thicker sounding may prefer vintage wiring?
By the way, the schematic on the warranty card I got with my Stormy Monday last week was for Modern Wiring......
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I would imagine a Cornford or Bogner that are a bit thicker sounding may prefer vintage wiring?
By the way, the schematic on the warranty card I got with my Stormy Monday last week was for Modern Wiring......
Good point TF. Actually all my in the past were "tone-sucked" - maybe from now on I will get comments like "da Fizz" or "teh Brittle" ... :lol:
Yesterday I moved the bass pot from 11 to 3 o'clock, mid from 9 to 12 and treble from 3 to 11 on the Budda to achieve the same flavour of tone - but I think it's a bit better on chords, maybe a bit harder to play on leads, I need more experience.
It's true that Tims schematics are for modern wiring. Guitarelectronics.com say there wouldn't be a difference, which is just not true IMO.
On http://www.guitarelectronics.com/category/wiringresources.1basicwiringfaqs/ it says "Keep in mind that the capacitor value only affects the sound when the tone control is being used (pot in the bass setting) The tone capacitor value will have little to no effect on the sound when the tone pot is in the treble setting. "
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Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but I'm just pondering how to wire up my LP Jr and all the relevant info is already here. I just wanted to clear something up:
The way you have the tone pots themselves wired up in those two pics is different. This alone makes absolutely no difference to anything. It's all in the way the volume pot is connected to the tone pot.
So with regard to the tone pot itself, it makes no difference at all if
(a) the cap connects to the middle lug and the outer lug is grounded ("modern"); or
(b) the cap connects to the outer lug and the middle lug is grounded ("vintage")?
I'm probably thinking about things too much, as usual, but I'm just a bit baffled why they bothered to show the tone pot wiring differently in the diagrams (and the ones on this thread (http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10434&highlight=vintage+wiring) too). Maybe Gibson just changed the way they do things for no particular reason (not for the first time), but it does seem odd. :?
Anyway, that being the case I can use either schematic and switch between "vintage" and "modern" simply by changing one connection - the lug on the volume control the cap connects to. Correct? Or not? :?:
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So with regard to the tone pot itself, it makes no difference at all if
(a) the cap connects to the middle lug and the outer lug is grounded ("modern"); or
(b) the cap connects to the outer lug and the middle lug is grounded ("vintage")?
Correct! I've never read any evidence to the contrary.
I'm probably thinking about things too much, as usual, but I'm just a bit baffled why they bothered to show the tone pot wiring differently in the diagrams (and the ones on this thread (http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10434&highlight=vintage+wiring) too). Maybe Gibson just changed the way they do things for no particular reason (not for the first time), but it does seem odd. :?
I believe Gibson changed the way they wired the tone pots around the time that the SG came out (1960-61ish). No idea why!
Anyway, that being the case I can use either schematic and switch between "vintage" and "modern" simply by changing one connection - the lug on the volume control the cap connects to. Correct? Or not? :?:
Completely correct yet again :)
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Cheers Dave! :D I'll stop worrying and get soldering.
I just noticed on the RS Guitarworks site that they have a pre-wired kit called the Hillbilly Channel Switchin' Kit (http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore/product_info.php?cPath=47_61&products_id=362), based on Greg Martin's '58 Les Paul.
They're a but cryptic about it, but it looks to me like he mistakenly connected the caps on his LP to the outer lugs on the volume controls, effectively converting it to "modern" wiring.
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Looks like plain old modern wiring to me :roll:
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Looks like plain old modern wiring to me :roll:
You're not saying it's a case of the Emperor's New (Hillbilly) Clothes, are you? :wink:
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Surely not........ :P
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Cheers Dave! :D I'll stop worrying and get soldering.
I just noticed on the RS Guitarworks site that they have a pre-wired kit called the Hillbilly Channel Switchin' Kit (http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore/product_info.php?cPath=47_61&products_id=362), based on Greg Martin's '58 Les Paul.
They're a but cryptic about it, but it looks to me like he mistakenly connected the caps on his LP to the outer lugs on the volume controls, effectively converting it to "modern" wiring.
No shite they're cryptic, their treble tamer kit is the funniest - 300k pots rather than 500k ones. If you have a bright Gibson with 300k pots already, it's not gonna change anything.
I'm really curious as to what the wiring mistake was though on that Hillbilly kit. I've been wanting to try some of their super-taper pots for a while so I'm gonna order the Hillbilly set to find out :D
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I'm really curious as to what the wiring mistake was though on that Hillbilly kit. I've been wanting to try some of their super-taper pots for a while so I'm gonna order the Hillbilly set to find out :D
I don't think the Hillbilly kit actually has the super-duper-gary-cooper short-shaft super-taper superpots (I know you might want the long shaft set, but I wanted to write "short-shaft super-taper superpots").
It just says "4 CTS Audio Taper Pots". On all the other kit write-ups they spend ages rhapsodising about the superpots.
I'm pretty sure it's just a "modernised" version of their vintage kits, with the cap connected differently to the volume control.
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Did you ever get round to installing the Vintage Wiring Philly Q?
I was thinking of installing a treble bleed cap in my SG, but if the vintage wiring retains treble better when you lower volume it looks the easier solution.
Cheers!
BM
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Did you ever get round to installing the Vintage Wiring Philly Q?
I've only been working on one guitar since this thread started, my LP Jr - and I've actually wired it like the RS Guitarworks "Hillbilly Channel Switchin' Kit" referred to above. That way, I can try out the "vintage" wiring just by shifting one end of the cap.
As usual, though, I haven't got round to putting the guitar back together yet. :roll:
I suspect I'll stick with the modern/hillbilly wiring for the Junior, though - since it only has one pickup I don't want it too bright (if that's indeed what the vintage wiring does).
I've tried treble bleed caps a couple of times, but I'm not keen - I quite like the way the tone softens when you lower the volume with conventional wiring. It might be good on, say, a Tele with hot pickups so you could drop the volume and simulate a more vintage tone.
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Hello
I'm a bit new around, hope you don't mind me adding my question here as it seems connected to this thread. I'm a bit of newbie to guitar electric so feel free to laugh at me if my question(s) are stupid.
I have a PRS tremonti SE which I brough second hand as a doer upper. It mainly standard lp wiring. My first change I'm doing to the guitar is rewiring and replacing the pots as the pots are all scratchy and are acknowledged to be a weak point of the guitar. I 'm saving my pennies for new pups (prob black dogs)
The trouble I have is all the wiring diagrams I have found show the caps in series in the wire from volume to tone pot, but this guitar has them soldered from the right lug on the tone pot earthed to the pot cover (I think someone called this a tone killer earlier in the thread).
Is there any reason why it would be wired this way, or any reason why I shouldn't change it over to either modern or vintage style and would I have to replace the cap or could use the ones all ready in there (I will be replacing the caps any way when I get the new pups, this is just playing while I save).
And if anyone can give me advise on weather modern or vintage would be better for this guitar that would be appeciated
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Greetings :)
I think the caps are probably wired the way you describe for ease of assembly? It's a common way of wiring far eastern guitars at the factory, such as the korean and japanese models.
There's no reason whatsoever why you shouldn't change it. If the caps have long enough legs to wire them the traditional way then you can certainly re-use them.
As for vintage vs modern, it's purely a matter of personal preference. As the difference is only one wire swap you'll need to try both and see which you prefer :)
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The trouble I have is all the wiring diagrams I have found show the caps in series in the wire from volume to tone pot, but this guitar has them soldered from the right lug on the tone pot earthed to the pot cover (I think someone called this a tone killer earlier in the thread).
I think the "tone sucking" aspect of the "reverse" wiring scheme referred to above wasn't the way the cap is wired, but the fact that the selector switch is connected to the tone control rather than the volume control.
As Twinfan has said, it's very common to see the cap grounded on the back of the tone control as you described, but personally I like to use the cap as the "link" between the volume and tone controls, just because it's one less wire to solder. :wink: There's no reason at all why you shouldn't rewire the guitar differently using the existing controls, but I don't know how much noticeable difference it'll make.
I find the RS Guitarworks website quite helpful - I haven't actually bought any of their pre-wired kits, but they have big clear photos which are good examples of nice clean wiring.
Here's their "modern" kit:
http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore/product_info.php?cPath=47_62&products_id=178
And here's their "vintage" one:
http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore/product_info.php?cPath=47_61&products_id=392
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I always liked this diagram and you could always swap around lugs to change to modern / vintage...
(http://www.has-sound.com/wiring_diagrams/lp_2pu.jpg)
Also like this site for wiring info:
http://dominocs.com/AshBassGuitar/
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Bumping an old thread because curiosity got the better of me and I wired up a quick tone pot test harness. I honestly did not want to believe there was a difference but yes, there is a subtle difference and the vintage style sounds more open and the high frequencies are preserved a lot better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4d681HVsw8&feature=youtu.be
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Bumping an old thread because curiosity got the better of me and I wired up a quick tone pot test harness. I honestly did not want to believe there was a difference
The difference in tone shaping, resonance frequency and general behaviour between both circuits is a proven, scientific, demonstrated fact - even if with both pots cranked up the difference may or not be noticeable depending on all the variable (pup's capacitance, inductance and output impedance, pots and cap values, cable capacitance, amp's input impedance and whatnots). No black magic nor snake oil here.
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Just because something's a proven scientific fact doesn't mean I'm going to believe it until I try it :)
Even the wikipedia page for RLC networks has a disclaimer about disputed scientific accuracy!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RLC_circuit#Parallel_RLC_circuit
So really the answer is experiment with both methods and see what suits you. I'm replacing a strat switch tomorrowand I'm probably going to make sure the pots are moved over to vintage style.
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Just because something's a proven scientific fact doesn't mean I'm going to believe it until I try it :)
:lol:
So really the answer is experiment with both methods and see what suits you.
This is another point (and I totally agree on it).