Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: kluson on December 16, 2007, 07:47:34 PM

Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 16, 2007, 07:47:34 PM
Hi I have a 74 Les Paul custom. Problem is it sounds a little muddy now. The pick ups are original and very tired.
 The bridge is OK if a little too bassy and the neck is very bassy indeed , I find the guitar just a bit too warm.  The covers are very worn and so I would like a couple of double blacks.
 Would the mules suit?
 cheers
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: HTH AMPS on December 16, 2007, 08:37:07 PM
Mules are perfect for a Les Paul - anything from blues, pop, classic rock and even a bit of lighter metal (Priest etc...)

What value are the pots in that guitar? - has it always sounded muddy?

 :twisted:
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 16, 2007, 08:49:14 PM
The pots are original 500k CTS
 cap values are .02
 I may take out the complete loom and rewire with RS kit
 I don't think it has always been muddy , I don't use it that much but I got it out the other day and after playing my R9 Historic with Dr V's PAF's  it sounded really muddy , ( Hope it's OK to mention Dr V's)
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: hunter on December 16, 2007, 09:19:28 PM
Quote from: kluson
The pots are original 500k CTS
 cap values are .02
 I may take out the complete loom and rewire with RS kit
 I don't think it has always been muddy , I don't use it that much but I got it out the other day and after playing my R9 Historic with Dr V's PAF's  it sounded really muddy , ( Hope it's OK to mention Dr V's)


try to wire the tone to the out (middle pin) instead of the in (1st pin) of the vol pot. Makes a difference on muffly sounding les pauls!
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: HTH AMPS on December 16, 2007, 10:41:29 PM
Quote from: kluson
The pots are original 500k CTS
 cap values are .02
 I may take out the complete loom and rewire with RS kit
 I don't think it has always been muddy , I don't use it that much but I got it out the other day and after playing my R9 Historic with Dr V's PAF's  it sounded really muddy , ( Hope it's OK to mention Dr V's)


Dr.V's?, RS-Kit? - You've gotta be on the LPF ???

 :twisted:
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: gwEm on December 17, 2007, 12:29:11 AM
if your paul is slightly dark sounding you might consider a brighter pickup like the riff raff.

tim sometimes mentions his dark sounding 70s les pauls on here, i suppose his advice would be very expert for this question.
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: Henk on December 17, 2007, 10:55:06 AM
I have a '78 Gibson custom, has 250k pots, my '73 SG has 250k pots, allmy other gibsons prior to the 90's have 250k pots. The only with 500k pots is my '76 custom but it does not have original pots, they are recently replaced because it also had 250k pots.

250k pots make a guitar sound muddy and dark, this was the custom sound back then, thats why the standard's were more popular.

The only thing i can think off if they really are 500k pots is that the lack of use corroded the electronics and adds extra resistance to the path, which i have encountered sometimes. If this is the case, fumbling with the pots and jack some time will improve the sound a bit. Restoring it to full potential will take either redoing the electronics or restauration by a good tech.

If this is true especially your bridge pickups will sound very thin and liveless, neck very muddy and bassy. What i would do is take it to a good tech an have it checked first.

One advise, DONT give up on your pickups! I once tossed an 80's PAF because it sounded so thin i thought it was broken, later i found out the volume pot for the bridge was broken....... :oops:

The unpotted mules i have in my '76 (with 500k pots) are exactly what im looking for as a PAF addict, they sound very transparent and balanced and offer the smoothest PAF tone i have ever heard.

I would personally upgrade the R9 with Mules and restore the '74 custom, burstbuckers sound like sh/t (sorry)!

EDIT: Ok ive read you replaced the burstbuckers allready, never mind the.... :wink:
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 17, 2007, 12:00:55 PM
Hi Hank thanks for your info. I have no problem to do the work myself. My plan is to rem,ove the complete loom and rewire using CTS 500K audio tapers. I have a good supply of NOS caps. I plan to keep all the old stuff and replace with Mules. The old Pu's and wiring loom will be kept just in case I ever come to sell the guitar. The guitar is very worn ans as such I won't be affecting the value, plus I will still have the original loom.
 In terms of Burstbuckers , They can sound great in some guitars but are very guitar specific.
 I have a pair of antiquities in an old 72 Gold deluxe ( routed) which sound fantastic but in an R9 of mine they sound lousy, such is the way of the guitar.
I've ordered the Mules now and will start the restoration when they arrive.
 Looking forward to that
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: Will on December 17, 2007, 12:17:21 PM
Please upload some pics :) sounds like its gooood!
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 17, 2007, 03:52:02 PM
hi
 After a conversation with Tim,
 I've gone for a set of crawlers. I'll report back how it sounds
Cheers
 for the suggestions,
 What would you like pics of the custom or the Gold top?,
 here's the murphy R9
(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL362/1881120/15963528/290062404.jpg)
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: Will on December 17, 2007, 04:30:13 PM
The custom was my original request, but I'm happy to look at more if you would happen to put them up  :roll:
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: ericsabbath on December 17, 2007, 04:36:20 PM
i'll pay $500 for your muddy '74 custom! :lol::lol::lol:
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 17, 2007, 05:00:02 PM
here's the gold top
(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL362/1881120/3632342/83186156.jpg)
 here's a few more
(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL362/1881120/3632342/75930740.jpg)
(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL362/1881120/3632342/44722436.jpg)
(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL362/1881120/3632342/98192361.jpg)
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: machine_of_god on December 17, 2007, 05:07:55 PM
Umm, I don't think you have enough LP's... you need at least a dozen more WTF...   :shock:

















Jealousy   :twisted:
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 17, 2007, 05:13:46 PM
there are more!
 my wife always says you can't have enough shoes with me it's Les Pauls. I've been collecting them for a few years now.
 I just can resist them...
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: sambo on December 17, 2007, 05:26:25 PM
Wowwww-ly cool!  :o
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: 808 on December 17, 2007, 05:30:23 PM
That's a great collection!!!

Very drool worthy!
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: HTH AMPS on December 17, 2007, 07:14:33 PM
Some gorgeous LP's there, a cherry Custom would look nice in that collection (not that you NEED any encouragement it seems)  :wink:  :lol:

 :twisted:
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: hunter on December 17, 2007, 07:44:36 PM
wow, I mean: WOW! So do you always keep the strings fresh on all of them? Which do you play most? With this kind of guitar collection, I'd like to know about your amps too  :P
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: Buddha on December 17, 2007, 08:43:49 PM
WOW! That's an extremely nice collection of les pauls in that photo, and you say you have more? goodness, i'm speechless...
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 17, 2007, 08:51:07 PM
Quote from: hunter
wow, I mean: WOW! So do you always keep the strings fresh on all of them? Which do you play most? With this kind of guitar collection, I'd like to know about your amps too  :P


 Hi Hunter
 I use a 66 Deluxe re verb and a Metro JTM 45 I built myself, there are a few small . I don't really collect amps. I do Have a Cornford MK50 which I am trying to sell now I've built the metro..

(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL362/1881120/15963528/250736909.jpg)

(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL362/1881120/15963528/250736738.jpg)

(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL362/1881120/3632342/229235764.jpg)
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: lulusg on December 17, 2007, 09:02:44 PM
That is a very respectful amount of beautiful LPs. It would be interesting to see and hear you try a set of BKPs in one of those LPs. It might open a whole new world into your collection. Cheers Kluson!
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 17, 2007, 09:14:44 PM
Quote from: LULUSG
That is a very respectful amount of beautiful LPs. It would be interesting to see and hear you try a set of BKPs in one of those LPs. It might open a whole new world into your collection. Cheers Kluson!

 Many thanks for all the kind comments. This collection has been put together over a number of years trading up. it's a really bad habit
 I have some strats too but I always come back to the Les Paul's.
 I have lot's of different pick ups in the Les Paul's  Voodoo's , Dr V's, Filmores,  Antiquities, even one which sounds great with Burstbuckers, honest.
 I can't wait to try the Crawlers in the Custom, having spoken to Tim I think they will be ideal. I'll let you know
Title: Wow
Post by: Stefanio on December 17, 2007, 09:28:30 PM
Wow, you got a great collection

good luck with the BK's
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 17, 2007, 09:31:08 PM
thanks
 I can't wait to get them
Title: ...
Post by: Stefanio on December 17, 2007, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: kluson
thanks
 I can't wait to get them


i can't wait for mine, set of Apache's
think they will arrive soon :P

cheers

next on the menu i think is Mule's for my Epi Lp
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 17, 2007, 11:25:20 PM
I've just rewired the Custom, using Hovland Magic Caps, and new CTS 500k audio taper pots, just got to sit and wait for the Crawlers now.
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: Henk on December 18, 2007, 09:07:32 AM
Quote from: kluson
Hi Hank thanks for your info. I have no problem to do the work myself. My plan is to rem,ove the complete loom and rewire using CTS 500K audio tapers. I have a good supply of NOS caps. I plan to keep all the old stuff and replace with Mules. The old Pu's and wiring loom will be kept just in case I ever come to sell the guitar. The guitar is very worn ans as such I won't be affecting the value, plus I will still have the original loom.
 In terms of Burstbuckers , They can sound great in some guitars but are very guitar specific.
 I have a pair of antiquities in an old 72 Gold deluxe ( routed) which sound fantastic but in an R9 of mine they sound lousy, such is the way of the guitar.
I've ordered the Mules now and will start the restoration when they arrive.
 Looking forward to that


Sounds like a plan to me! The crawlers should be very nice with the custom trough a JTM clone. I play trough a JCM800(2205) and a Bluesbreaker '90 reissue and tend to use boosters alot. The unpotted alnico IV mules are pretty unique and i was desperate to try them since i dont need high output pickups on my amps. Maybe not historically correct, but high output pickups on a JTM makes so much difference IMHO.

The mules in a custom do sound very complex and clear, i can imagine alot of players would find them a bit too thin and would prefer them in a standard.

Everything does boil down to getting the right guitar/pickup combination, i agree. My mules seem to be voiced for 500k pots, which is different from most 'true' PAF reissues IMO. I have Gibson, dimarzio and SD PAFs and all sound better with 250 caps IMO. I do prefer acoustically very clear sounding guitars though(2 of my customs have maple necks), which makes all the difference IMO.

I really like your standards, hope you can toss us a pic or two of your custom and maybe a couple of other mates you have around.

Kindest regards, Henk
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 18, 2007, 10:48:18 AM
thanks Henk,
 I di all the wiring last night. I have a jig made from wood with holes drilled at exactly the pitch of the Les Paul control cavity. This way I can wire up all the ground jumpers and caps outside the guitar and additionally I have added a couple of resistors and a cap as a bleed circuit to stop the loss of clarrity when the volume is reduced. Then all I have to do is solder in the switch leads and pick -ups. It's just sitting there waiting for the Crawlers. Can't wait.
 I'll post pics of the custom when all is done. I am changing the plastic to aged creme, . I really like the look of Brian Robbertsons custom from the live and dangerous album. I have already changed the machine heads to kluson plastic tulip buttons, more in keeping with a 50's custom I know, but it does look cool.
Cheers
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: Henk on December 19, 2007, 12:19:45 AM
You might want to check out recent discussion on vintage vs. modern les paul wiring in the Tech section.

I personally like to sync the look of a guitar with how it sounds, to me that gives it more character. I do try to keep them as original as possible, i just recently found out again how irritating it can be that people 'personalise' their guitar and then try to sell them when i was looking for a strat.

Or maybe better said, i see it as a challenge to get the best out of an allready excellent guitar, keeps me busy :wink:

I would like to get a 50's custom once, but when looking at the pricing on those ill probably have to sell my car to get a decent one.
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on December 21, 2007, 07:05:20 PM
the Crawlers are here, will get them in in the next few days and post pics
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: ledzettervall on January 20, 2008, 09:37:59 PM
Quote from: kluson
the Crawlers are here, will get them in in the next few days and post pics


How did they sound? Too hot?
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: fps_dean on January 21, 2008, 04:41:53 AM
Mules are the pickups that sound more like a Les Paul in a Les Paul than Gibsons offerings today.

I'm a big fan of the Rebel Yells in my Les Paul... they're best with a little gain on them though and won't have the sweet sound of a Mule, but damn they sound good!
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: Prawnik on January 24, 2008, 02:46:46 PM
I am late to the party, yo, but it's funny how Lesters can vary.  I have a '75 Custom that has always been too bright.  

I am thinking about a Black Dog in the bridge to give it a low-mid kick in the shorts.
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: kluson on March 02, 2008, 02:09:55 PM
Well I tried the crawlers and frankly didn't like the sound I got which I found fizzy. Swapped them with Tim, (great Customer service by the way) for a pair of Mules. They will go into an R8, just ageing the screws now, The Custom has it's original PUps in it now ;sounds much better with the 500k pots and new caps.
Title: muddy sounding Les Paul custom 74
Post by: Henk on March 06, 2008, 09:12:13 AM
Nice of you to update, it would be interesting to hear what you think about the mules. They are the closest thing to a vintage PAF if you ask me, allthough they also do sound better with 500k pots IMO.