Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: sambo on December 17, 2007, 09:40:39 PM
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Ok so a lot is said about how Mules are fantastically versatile and much more than just a classic PAF pickup.
Well, does that apply to just the mules?
I say this because I play everything from Zeppelin to modern hardcore and have seen a cheapo set of Zebra Stormy Monday for sale. Wondering if they live up to the status of their Mule brothers?
Now I'm not a classic rock/blues nut... I don't need a nice vintage PAF tone. But I appreciate the characteristics of driving lower-output humbuckers harder e.t.c. and have always been recommended the mule.
I need nice clean tones, as well as the capability to remain nice and defined when driven hard.
Think this kinda tone; www.myspace.com/theghostofathousand
(probably not everyones cup of tea but bear with it- listen to the tone guys!!! :lol:)
Would it be wise to hold out until something else comes along?
For a Burny LP Custom by the way.
Cheers,
sam. :D
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The Stormy Monday is a great pickup. I guess it comes down to how you like your distortion sound, really, and how much you desire.
From my experience, can you do metal on a SM? Yes, I did it with no problem at the last NY Bare Knuckle jam ... on a 335 clone, no less.
But, for the amount of gain required, and the amount of physical push (and I play pretty hard), the pickup doesn't shine in that setting.
When I played a gig recently using my Riff Raff bridge (also in a LP clone), I loved the tone, but the basic reaction was that it sounded more compressed than my Cold Sweat. Sounds impossible, right? But it's true ... I was pushing the Riff Raff outside of its performance parameters. Will it do metal? Yes, but not ideally.
Unfortunately, there is no panacea one-pup-does-all out there. If you're looking for something to straddle the fence well, however, I would recommend the VHII.
Hope that helps.
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Thanks man, than does indeed help greatly.
It was as I feared I guess... asking for a bit too much.
VHII was my next port of call after mules before I considered something more high output.
I feel like I'm in a bit of a rut here!!!
I'm not after a 'traditional' metal sound... more huge, growly heavy rock/punk sound... like demon-PAFs on steroids. The band I referenced play straight into Orange AD series heads with Gibson Les Pauls + SGs, and live have an outstanding tone. Not a MASSIVE amount of gain in reality.
So what would you recommend- go lower output PAF (probably Mule..?) and play them hard, or go higher output i.e. Nailbomb-esque? Or is that effectively unnecessary? Does it just boil down to personal preference?
I just get the impression that there's a point when you cross a certain line in the BK range you hit metal territory. And I feel like I'm smack bang ON that line!
:evil:
Thanks again for the help Ben.
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You hit the nail straight on the head -- personal preference.
For my nickel, I would go with a higher output pup and turn the gain down on the amp, as that's what it sounds like you want -- a bit of dirt on there no matter what.
If you want it clean, but a really dirty tone when cranked, the Mule might be the answer, but I would say the Rebel Yell would do that even better.
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I think TOs suggestion of a VHII is a great one. Mules might be a bit too traditional for you?
I'd like to try a set of VHIIs in one of my Ibanez's.....
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Yeah wanting "a bit of dirt on there no matter what" sounds pretty accurate.
Okay so high(er) output. What are my options for a LP Custom to sound evil, but not OVER-evil or UNDER-evil?
(An embarrassingly terrible description I know :oops: :lol)
I'm leaning VH-II, Nailbomb... Black Dog even maybe?
Cheers for the help guys.
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I've (still) get to load that Black Dog in my LP, but I've always thought of the Black Dog as a hot PAF type of tone. That might work for you.
I'lll get the BD in my guitar over xmas and post some clips.
:twisted:
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Nice one mate, look forward to hearing it. :D
"Muscular growl and bite. Full bodied and strong with classic mid range detail."
Aha!!! As close to perfect description as I've read on the BK site.
Hmmm.
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I still reckon Mules would do that Ghost of a Thousand tone, would say it depends more on the amp than the pickup in this situation as its not an extremely high gain or compressed sound, its just aggressive. I'll try to do a clip of that kinda thing tomorrow if you want, though my mic'ing isnt at its best yet so things may sound a bit scooped or fizzy.
Maybe the VHII would be better for you though, I remember really liking them in a PRS I played at Music Live years ago. I still want a PRS or something to put a set of them in :lol:
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Yeah that's the reason it's difficult to know what would nail that tone. Very aggressive and ballsy sound, (ENGL can do that no problem), but it's knowing what pickup will push that sound even further.
Mule, Black Dog, VH-II, maybe Nailbomb if I really did go high output.
(you've wanted a pair of VHIIs for AGES!!! :lol:)
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I know I have, I just havent really got a guitar to put any in. I spose I could try one in my strat instead of the Rebel Yell but I need to get the Rebel Yell shifted first :lol:
Speaking of which, you may like the RY. I personally find it too aggressive/high output for my taste but could just be what you're looking for. Will do a clip of that tomorrow as well, though its in a strat so not exactly what you'll be using it in..
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Ha, not enough guitars for the BKs you want; a financially good place to be in that is!!!
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haha I know :P I've found a MIJ Yamaha LP locally for £225 though so I might get that if I like it, seems like a great price.
Just did this clip of the Rebel Yell in my strat, I dont know much/any hardcore so go easy on me :lol:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GNCZ1AC2
Sounds a bit buzzy cos I'm still cr@p at mic'ing but the tone in the room was pretty good. I'd imagine it to sound a bit warmer in a Les Paul but I may be wrong. If you want to buy it send me a PM :P
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I'd possibly recommend the Holydiver. Bear with me...
Excellent clean tone, pushes the amp but still retains a lovely clean sound, and driven at the levels I play at (pretty dirty, not raaaah levels though, firmly in the just distortion growl) it works a treat. Plus not too hot, around 12k i think.
Apparently it is 'modern' sounding. I have no idea what that means.
Also, anecdotal here, but low powered pickups are cool with me. I'd imagine the Stormy Mondays being the LP equivalent to Country Boys in a tele, and I've managed some pretty heavy shizz on my tele. You do have to hit harder, and crank the volume a bit more (low output=quiet) which isn't that convenient really.
That's all I gots, I'm spent.
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i think the mules sound fatter than the VH2 in that the lower mids and bass are fatter.. not as much high mid as the VH2.. and not quite as hot but it's deffinatly a great pickup for every style i can think of bar maybe tech metal.
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GALLOWS! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Nice work Tom :D For a non-hardcore person that was rather good I must say.
They actually use a Laney VH100R live actually so you're in a good position to do that. :)
Cheers. What output are Rebel Yells?
Mark hadn't even considered the Holy Diver at all. It's meant to be quite dark right? Dark is good. And cleans are very important so that's a good sign as well.
As for pushing a pickup harder, I've been playing a lot with amp settings and stuff today... I have VH-1 Burny pickups (PAF replicas), and I don't think I would have to go much higher than that to be at comfortable levels in terms of output.
Mules vs. VHII I think Mules would definitely suit me better if they had more lower mids and fatter bass.
But how do Black Dogs compare directly to Mules? They are supposed to "muscular growl and bite" so more snarly lower-mids+bass than Mules or what?
Cheers guys, this is helping.
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Actually Sam I'm in the same boat as you. I'm looking to upgrade the pickups in my Epi Les Paul and can't decide between pickups. The Black Dog's are tempting, but I know the Mules would most likely be perfect. BUT! I want something with a bit more output, already got low powered pups, and as much as I love the tone I want something a bit meatier for my LP. So much choice.
Also, check out the Emerald clips in the Players section, Machinehead posted some and they are sexy. Sexy.
As for the 'dark' HD, I can't comment, it seems to be pretty bright and punchy in my Strat, I'm blaming the Strat on that count though. Gives a good sound so I'm not complaining.
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The Rebel Yell bridge is 14.45k according to the BK site. It seems quite a bit hotter/gainier than the Mules, though in terms of fatness etc its not a huge difference. It just seems to have more mids and crunch.
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But, for the amount of gain required, and the amount of physical push (and I play pretty hard), the pickup doesn't shine in that setting.
When I played a gig recently using my Riff Raff bridge (also in a LP clone), I loved the tone, but the basic reaction was that it sounded more compressed than my Cold Sweat. Sounds impossible, right? But it's true ... I was pushing the Riff Raff outside of its performance parameters.
Good description! I get a similar feeling with low/vintage-output pickups sometimes - that they're struggling to keep up and just sort of collapse.
It's a very non-scientific analogy, but if distortion was a sea (the Sea of Distortion) medium-output pickups would be bobbing around comfortably on the surface whilst low-output pickups would be treading water and desperately trying not to go down like Leo di Caprio in Titanic. And high-output pickups would be a big feck-off motor boat cutting through the waves like they didn't exist.
Sorry, I had a few beers at lunchtime. :oops: It is Christmas.
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I actually laughed out loud when I read "...distortion was a sea... (the Sea of Distortion)..."
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I get what you mean Phil. (that's probably a bad thing :oops:).
See your description is what worries me- I don't want to be the motor boat, because that's extreme metal and all flamboyant and extravagant and o.t.t.
Don't want to be the poor fella struggling to survive, because... well.... for obvious reasons.
However I don't want to be floating atop the crest of a wave of mediocrity... :lol:. I don't want to be sitting in the middle with a sound that isn't particular great either way.
Anyway!
Mark your first paragraph summed up my position nicely. Yeah the Emerald clips are nice (I'm trying to allow the inclusion of Emeralds into this choice :oops:).
And yeah I guess an HB in a strat is of course a very different kettle of fish.
Sooo many damn options...
:evil:
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Well my idea was to go for the Mules, but ask Tim nicely about winding them a tad hotter, just to give an extra little kick, especially in the bridge. Then again this will end up affecting the tone. Can't win really. Just gotta pick something at the end of the day.
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Good idea.
But exactly. That's just another option you have, and therefore another decision to make. :evil:
In many ways it's just easier to leave the stock pickups and pretend you have KILLER TONE!!!!! :twisted: :twisted:
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The easiest thing to do would be....
buy my Rebel Yell :P I dont think I make a very good salesman..
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hahahaha. Maybe if you had some kind of hypnotic powers to go with your instructions... other than that.... no, you don't.
:lol:
How much are you asking anyway? (That does NOT mean I'm buying it! :lol:)
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Only £80 as I've had to file down the corner of one of the feet and trim down the screws/springs so it'd fit in my strat.
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£80? Might as well buy a new one... :wink: :lol:
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That sounds like haggling talk to me! :lol:
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I get what you mean Phil. (that's probably a bad thing :oops:).
It is a bad thing at your age. It took me a lot of years to degenerate to this point.
However I don't want to be floating atop the crest of a wave of mediocrity... :lol:. I don't want to be sitting in the middle with a sound that isn't particular great either way.
:D Ah! Aha! But it's not a wave of mediocrity - it's going with the flow, adapting to the surroundings. Having a degree of control, but not riding roughshod over anything. The best of all worlds. God, I'm turning into Donovan or Steve Hillage or somebody. :roll:
So to get back to pickups, that, in a nutshell (or a c--kleshell), is why I like vintage-hot best.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: Cracked up several times through that one.
Ok so now that we (I say we... I mean you...), have established that Vintage-Hot is the best... which vintage-hot?
I'm leaning towards Black Dogs... so much so in fact that I'm in danger of falling over...
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Well Carlaz just posted an awesome Crawler clip, and now I want another LP to put a set in now :lol: I can actually get that Yamaha LP for about £225 now apparently as I live close so it wont need to be posted, but I want to buy a half decent camera as well so I dont know which to get :\
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THE LP! WHY ARE YOU EVEN ASKING THAT QUESTION?! :lol:
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Ok so now that we (I say we... I mean you...), have established that Vintage-Hot is the best... which vintage-hot?
I'm leaning towards Black Dogs... so much so in fact that I'm in danger of falling over...
Hmm, I'd forgotten your original question :oops: . Well, the only vintage-hot BKPs I've actually got are a Black Dog bridge and an Abraxas neck (in different guitars), so I can't say much of practical use. Oh, and the Crawlers of course, but I still haven't got round to fitting them.
The BD definitely has a bit more grunt'n'grind than a PAF style pickup. People often refer to its low-mids, but it's still not dark or lacking in presence. Mine's in my V, which may not be the best place for it. I'm thinking of getting Mules for my Edwards Potbelly, but with half a mind of putting the Mules in the V and transferring the BD to the Potbelly. I'm sure BDs would sound great in your LP.
I'm also very keen to get a set of Emeralds, or at least the bridge model, for a bit more output (again) and that 70's kind of tone.
I'm sure the VHIIs are great too. I've read a few comments that suggest they may be a bit bright for my taste, but as always there are other comments (and clips) which suggest the brightness wouldn't be a problem at all.
I can actually get that Yamaha LP for about £225 now apparently as I live close so it wont need to be posted, but I want to buy a half decent camera as well so I dont know which to get :\
Did you get to try the Yamaha then, Tom?
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Yeah, Black Dogs = low-mids = Snarly, growly-ness = what I'm after = I need £190 A.S.A.P.
What do you play through Phil?
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THE LP! WHY ARE YOU EVEN ASKING THAT QUESTION?! :lol:
Well I'm just getting into photography and for a decent entry level dslr like the one I've been borrowing it'll cost about £350.
Phil, havent played the Yamaha yet but hopefully will be able to in the next couple of weeks.
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Fair do's.
Photography is arguably more expensive than guitars. A mate of mine had thousands and thousands of pounds worth of borrowed and bought equipment in his possession the other day... and you could fit it all on a piece of A4 paper. Scary.
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What do you play through Phil?
Ah, there's the question that renders most of my so-called "advice" redundant. :?
Strictly a home player - when I'm feeling brave enough to make some noise, I have my cranky old Rivera R55 or my new Orange Tiny Terror (which actually sounds good even with me playing, so for a decent player I suspect it sounds very good indeed). I've got very little experience with "proper" amps at serious volume.
When I need to be really quiet, I just use my trusty Pod XT.
Photography is arguably more expensive than guitars.
Yeah, a friend of mine just spent her whole Christmas bonus on a lens. Must admit I immediately started thinking "hmm, maybe it wouldn't be so terrible of me to buy another Tele... ".
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Haha. Well tone is tone no matter how quiet. :)
Oranges are kinda my favorite amp sound, (Wish I had known that a year ago! :oops:), from Tiny Terrors to Thunderverbs.
If you do decide to do any swapping with the BD and Mule, let me know what the results were as it would be interesting to compare the two reasonably accurately.
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Well this is right up my alley, sorry i didnt notice it before.
Typically for driving a PAF hard you need one wound over 8K DC, there is a big difference in gain signature from a PAF wound under 8k and over 8k.
Comparing the Gibson classic and its big brother classic + PAF makes it very noticable, they are both AII magnets though, very different from the AIV magnet in the Mules. The classic+ i have is wound to about 10k and has a very particular growl, very saturated and natural sounding, very good highs too by the way, still sounds closer to a AV magnet then a AIV though. The Gibson classic's sound a bit like a nasty version of the SM's, the + version obviously even more.
I do love the Mules more, they have better and more low end(allmost tempted to say PERFECT), punchier mids and more then enough highs to retain a balanced character. Overwinding a Mule bridge would make it bottom heavy i think and darker sounding, which isnt the best of ideas IMO.
So i am thinking atm of an Emerald with AIV magnet, the VHII would be perfect in terms of 'Hot PAF' pickup signature, but you have to like the signature of the VHII, and the amount of punch for that matter, overwinding a VHII would be possible i think, allthough you would get a really heavy punch to it i think.
Another thing i could imagine is underwinding an Abraxas bridge so it retains more highs, but that would still be a dark sounding PAF i think.
Anyway, just my 2cents, the mules are very versatile and im 100% sure i could play anything with them, its just such a great PAF sound combined with pretty neutral characteristics which is just perfect for playing on various amps and using different effects or even for recording which would be my first pick choosing from my guitars.
Thinking about this, im pretty sure the Mules are the ultimate noodle guitarists wet dream :lol: