Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: silentrage on December 31, 2007, 10:28:16 AM
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Anyone who's used the program have recommendations on what kind of hardware I would need for a nice 0 latency setup that also delivers good enough signal for recording with Guitar Rig?
I've been able to get it to around 8 ms in/out for a 16 ms total, by tweaking all the asio settings.
but somehow it feels like a lot more delay than 1/60 of a second because even when I play 8th at just over 100 bpm there's a distinct delay and I'd image it to be a total PITA to overdub anything fast like this.
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don't know what your soundcard is etc...(everything is effected by that and how much memory etc, whats running at the time, version of drivers)
try lowering sampling rate to 48khz or 44 and bitrate to 16bit
But ignoring all that for a mo try asio4all....can sometimes squeeze extra out of card...read destructions carefully to get best out of it
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don't know what your soundcard is etc...(everything is effected by that and how much memory etc, whats running at the time, version of drivers)
try lowering sampling rate to 48khz or 44 and bitrate to 16bit
But ignoring all that for a mo try asio4all....can sometimes squeeze extra out of card...read destructions carefully to get best out of it
well, perhaps I should've given more detail about my situation.
I'm running on some generic on-board sound card right now, using ASIO4ALL of course, with settings tweaked to the point where any lower sampling it would break up the signal, but the delay is still noticable.
I am pondering purchasing an audio interface, something like M-AUdio fast-track, but a mate told me it's nearly impossible to get 0 latency unless I take out a mortage and get a fast computer and a high-end audio- interface, something like a PRO-TOOL hardware.
So I would like to know if anyone has tried the program with an audio interface and see what kind of latency is possible at what cost.
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Nah don't need a mortgage, also don't need 0 latencya decent f/wire or pci souncard that can get you 8 or below in and out will do you fine, the reason your getting latency at 8 at the minute is the setup...it says 8 latency but will be far higher with an on board card(other system resources will effect it)
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so next question what speed is the pc..what memory etc..and what f/x unit you using
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I have the program running on this cr@p amd 64 3000+ and 1 g ddr400 ram right now.
but i'm over at my folks for xmas, when I get home I will try the same setup on my own box which is AM2 4200+ dual core with 4 gigs of DDRII 800mhz ram, which I think should sort it out, and it would be ideal to shut down everything except Guitar Rig and whatever recording/mixing software I"m using correct? (probably cubase sx 3 or something.)
WHat do you think I'll get out of that, possibly closer to the actual displayed 8 ms in out?
as for FX chain I tested what i consider a pretty bare bone setup. Input > Twang Reverb Preamp > any distortion ie. demon > 2 x 4x12 UK80s cab both micced with Dynamic 57 > output
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should do but still worth investing in a better(non onboard) S/card or firewire interface for example
http://www.dv247.com/invt/43353/ these work quite well especially with a spec comp like you have..has effects amps etc
or http://www.dv247.com/invt/2062/ is a straight pci s/card great recording and cheap, mate has one and on a 2100amd 512ram was getting 8 or less so yours should fly(and he's a very fast player no latency could be heard)
or a bit more you can get the 192 bit version or more still the firewire http://www.dv247.com/invt/19660/
all good at the cheaper end without getting a mortgage and give great recordings
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Thanks for the link, Firewire card + MAudio Firewire sounds like a surefire plan to get ultra low latency.
I would like to try the pod and return it to the store if it doesn't work to my satisfaction. But that's gonna be hard seeing as how I presently reside in China and they don't do the whole money-back guarantee thing.
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pods are ok but s/card firewire are better
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I've read a bunch of reviews for the Audiophile unit and it seems that besides the rave reviews, there's the occasional ones that say it is plagued with driver problems up to the point of dropping dead all together or having to reinstall driver everytime you want to use it. Sounds a bit scary, what's your experience with it?
and what's the deal with it un-balanced connections?
What does that actually hinder?
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balanced is supposed to have less noise, my experience is its great as long as your using xp(havn't tried vista yet with his)
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My advice: don't get a unit that is Firewire, get a USB 2.0 interface, it'll be cheaper, and is actually faster than the Firewire 400 standard. Also, unless you're using the 8 ins and outs on the unit all at once, you won't even be getting close to the theoretical top speed of the USB (or Firewire) standard :)
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yeah missed out the usb2's they kinda imbetween the firewire and pci for price
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Actually, i wouldnt go near USB for audio gear, theres a reason the best outboard soundcards are firewire, it's just more stable!
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balanced is supposed to have less noise
The manual of my card says "Balanced signals provide an additional +6dB of gain on the inputs and are recommended for best audio performance, although unbalanced cables are fine for most applications. If you’re having problems with hum and noise or just want the best possible performance, use balanced cables. (...) WARNING: Do NOT use balanced audio cables when connecting balanced outputs to unbalanced inputs. Doing so can increase noise level and introduce hum. Use balanced (3-conductor) cables ONLY if you are connecting balanced inputs to balanced outputs."
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Actually, i wouldnt go near USB for audio gear, theres a reason the best outboard soundcards are firewire, it's just more stable!
Hey Adam, thanks for the heads up!
I think maybe (from reading all the reviews I can find) that in case of the cheap end of the deal, FireWire may still be very unstable due to shoddy driver work or just the cheap construction or whatever, but I will compare the USB version as well as the Firewire in this case (M-Audio AUDIOPHILE) and watch out for those instability problems.
balanced is supposed to have less noise
The manual of my card says "Balanced signals provide an additional +6dB of gain on the inputs and are recommended for best audio performance, although unbalanced cables are fine for most applications. If you’re having problems with hum and noise or just want the best possible performance, use balanced cables. (...) WARNING: Do NOT use balanced audio cables when connecting balanced outputs to unbalanced inputs. Doing so can increase noise level and introduce hum. Use balanced (3-conductor) cables ONLY if you are connecting balanced inputs to balanced outputs."
Thanks for the info!
I'm guessing that unbalanced should be OK unless your computer is polluting the signal with extra noise from its processor and such?
I saw somewhere else on the forum that by using a little plugin to reduce the low end frequency on your recording it should get rid of most if not all of such noise, if that's the case, I should be fine with unbalanced.
No?
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I don't know... with a high-quality PCI card there shouldn't be any noise coming from the rest of the computer. I have an EMU 1212M, it's a two-card setup. It has its own FX processors, zero-latency monitoring, mastering-grade AD/DA converters and a very good patchbay/mixer interface (Patchmix DSP) for signal routing, level control, pan, EQ, inserting effects, send/return, monitoring etc. I think it's in the price range you're looking at because when I was planning to buy a sound card, the ones mentioned in this thread were on my list. :) EMU makes very good stuff.
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Hey Peter,
I went and looked at Emu 1212M, it looks pretty impressive for the money!
but some guy gave it this review on Musicians friend, just wondering if this happened with your card too?
"Patch MIX drivers felling on startup, a lots clicks and pops under 12ms Latency. ASIO driver unstable, direct monitoring makes lots of noise amplifying output signal.“
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Hm, never had such problems, in fact - any problems with it, and I'm using it w/ 3 to 5 ms latency. :) It might be computer-related - mine's a P4 3GHz w/ 2 GB's of DDR RAM, good hard drives and a rather affordable motherboard. Passive cooling, though, except the PSU and a system fan on the bottom of the case. Only the necessary programs are installed and I keep Windows in good condition and lightweight w/ TuneUp and Eset Smart Security.
That guy might not have the latest drivers and Patchmix installed. They tend to update both. The only disadvantage of the 1212M is the lack of dedicated microphone and instrument ins. For that you'd either need to connect a Microdock or get a 1616 or 1616M instead of the 1212M. Those are more expensive. :evil: They also make USB interfaces, however no firewire. The models with an 'M' have the better converters.
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Thanks again for the great info,
sorry to sound like such a newb but the spec sheet says there's 2(?) 1/4" inputs, what's the difference between those and a dedicated instrument in?
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Yeah, the card has two analog inputs, a midi in, a midi out and two analog outs (left and right). The other card has all kinds of digital ins and outs. The two inputs are for line level signals, either balanced or unbalanced. Those are two independent channels in Patchmix, usually used as left and right in case of a stereo source. ;) Plugging a passive guitar directly into one of them will result in a very muddy sound due to the impedance mismatch. You'll either need active pickups/electronics or a stomp box. I have a Boss OD-3, for instance, I simply need to put that between my guitar and the card. It will buffer my signal even when bypassed and that's OK for the Line In. You'll probably also need to boost the signal in Patchmix (it allows +12 dB) and further in Guitar Rig as most guitars produce a much weaker signal than line level. Most guitars sit between mic and line level. That's why it's more rewarding to plug into an instrument input. ;)
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I see.
I got a MT-2, I guess it could act as a fix for the impedance as long as I keep the distortion to a minimum and EQ flat, right?
Since I'm sorta broke I doubt I'll be able to get a 1616 or Dock, but I hear you can get a microdock and it will pretty much upgrade your 1212 into a 1616 or something?
Something else that's weird I noticed today while playing with GR2.
A few modules like compression and delay really kill my latency. It went from unnoticable (with no modules active) to at least 200ms-ish when I flip on the compression.
On the flip side a lot of things don't seem to affect latency much at all.
Like all the distortion and amp / mic simulation, which is strange to me.
I also had GR2 running in plugin mode with Cubase SX3 and Ezdrum playing a drum track while recording and the delay don't seem much different from when I just had a standalone GR2 running with a pretty standard module chain.
Turning on HQ mode made the CPU usage jump from 10 to 20, but no delay difference.
Only difference was the slightly noticable signal breakup when SX3 was running.
I'm pretty optimistic that getting that hardware interface will make it recording-worthy. :)
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well I won't get the thing til at least 6 months from now (short on the dough) so I figured waht the hell, I'll record something just to test out the procedure.
and here it is!
for some reason the beginning had lots of garbage but then it quietted down a bit. The lag is not too bad, but I think there's quite a few rhythm mismatch in there, the overdubbing part turned out better than I expected but that's pure luck, I had to guess how much delay there would be and play a bit ahead.
o and please don't laugh at how bad it is, it's my first time and I just learned the song...
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10840
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I see.
I got a MT-2, I guess it could act as a fix for the impedance as long as I keep the distortion to a minimum and EQ flat, right?
Since I'm sorta broke I doubt I'll be able to get a 1616 or Dock, but I hear you can get a microdock and it will pretty much upgrade your 1212 into a 1616 or something?
I believe you could also use the MT-2 in bypass as it's not true-bypass but buffered. That way the pedal won't mess with your sound.
Getting a dock for the 1212 is not really worth IMO as the dock has all the ins and outs the 1212 already has + some more. The 1212M has better converters than the dock or the plain 1616 but I'm not sure if that's worth the price difference. If mic and instrument ins are needed in the long run, I'd rather get something with those already there. :)