Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: kellar on January 23, 2008, 06:51:02 PM
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Hey guys, I was hoping some of you more experienced BKP users could help me out. I just got my Mules last week, alnico IV, and I am not sure they are exactly what I am looking for. Incredible pickups, the best I have ever heard. But not quite where I need my sound to be.
-The neck seems to have a touch to much low end for my liking. I need something real crystal clear and crisp in the neck. I play the majority of my blues clean and in the neck position. I love a super clean and dynamic neck. Almost jazz clean, but punchy on the low end and tight. Bluesy.
-The bridge has to be versatile. I love that glassy tone I get from the Mule through my tube amp, but I have had difficulty finding the spot where I am happy with it dirty and clean. Also, I wouldn't mind a bit more kick in the bridge for classic rock tunes. It is very important that I can play it clean though. I have always had a problem finding a bridge pickup that I like clean. Maybe I am just impossible to please. Once again, tight bottoms and crisp highs.
So, any suggestions? I was thinking something like Stormy Mondays, but maybe with something more dynamic in the bridge. I am open to suggestions. Right now I am playing through a Les Paul and Epiphone Valve Junior stack. The EVJ is generally a bit dark, I need something to brighten it a bit more. Thanks in advance for the help!
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The SM neck is a very similar wind to the Mule neck but has Alnico II instead of IV which should pull the bass back a little bit. If you want more sparkle, you could order it with Alnico III, too. However, there are several things you can do before ordering another pickup. Have you tried lowering the bass side of the pickup? Using 500K or 1 Meg pots instead of lower values also makes the sound more defined. Upgrading to 500K or 1 Meg is a must, if you have 300K pots in your LP. Finally, getting a high-end cable is usually like taking a wet blanket off your sound and should clear up the bass. 8)
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Thanks for the reply. Oddly enough, I just switched all my pots and caps out with an upgrade kit from rsguitarworks. It definitely improved my sound. My cables are all decent. I never buy cheap cables.
I have adjusted the pickups all over the place. The neck has a bit too much low end in overdrive. Actually, a bit too much low end period. Not quite sparkly enough. Like I said, I am looking for a neck pickup that really sparkles clean.
The bridge I was happier with. I felt like it could have been a bit hotter though for soloing. I got a real nice glassy tone with it though.
Like you suggested, I was thinking a Stormy Monday in the bridge. I think that is really going to open up my cleans. I am not an expert on magnets, what are alnico III's going to do for me?
Any bridge suggestions??
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The Mule neck is very full. A good alternative I have in one of my LPs is an Alnico IV Stormy Monday. Great for clean and blues tones, more Slash than Gary Moore if that makes sense?
The Mule I find great in the bridge, but I know what you're asking for. What about a Riff Raff?
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Yes, the Mule neck is very full. Well rounded and very musical, but a bit too bottom heavy for my taste.I need something airey and extremely clean.
I read about the Riff Raff, sounds intriguing. I want something a bit hotter than the Mule but still able to hold cleans.
Basically, I need something that is ultimately blues but a bit hotter in the bridge.
What about the Vintage Hot series (VHII, Black Dog, Emerald, Abraxas) for the bridge? Or is that taking it too far for what I am looking for?
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The SM neck is a very similar wind to the Mule neck but has Alnico II instead of IV
Not necessarily. Tim often winds the SM neck with A4, depending on what you're doing.
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Yes, the Mule neck is very full. Well rounded and very musical, but a bit too bottom heavy for my taste.I need something airey and extremely clean.
I read about the Riff Raff, sounds intriguing. I want something a bit hotter than the Mule but still able to hold cleans.
Basically, I need something that is ultimately blues but a bit hotter in the bridge.
What about the Vintage Hot series (VHII, Black Dog, Emerald, Abraxas) for the bridge? Or is that taking it too far for what I am looking for?
From experience the Emerald neck isn't going to give you an airy clean tone. It's more of a dark, slightly hot - smokey tone - with plenty of bottom end.
It does however clean up nicely when the volume is taken down on the guitar to below 8 but I don't think the Emerald neck is what you're after.
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Double post.
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I'm a bit surprised at this post. Listening to tom's clips of his Muled LP makes me think the mule is a do-it-all. Bridge anyway, no idea about the neck though.
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OK, i have the Mule set too, its a very responsive set so its not that easy to setup, a first glance at what they can do isnt enough your really have to put some time in IMHO.
Secondly it sounds to me you are used to playing a neck pickup of which you adjusted the polepieces to get the proper dynamics. Just tilt the neck mule a little more towards the strings, this will allready change alot, at least it does on mine, once you are absolutely sure you got the right spot to leave the neck mule on, then adjust the individual poles to get the resonse your used to. The bridge is pretty much the same, if its set quite low, just play with the setup a little and if you want a bit more brightness tilt it a bit.
I have the bridge mule set up in a way that i can have the string growl when digging in deep and just roll off a bit for perfect glassy cleans.
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to get good rock drive and good bluesy cleans from a bridge Mule without messing a bit with the tone/volume. There is just too much high end difference in the sound IMO. So basically setup the bridge Mule for a great rock tone, and believe me its in there, and triple check how the cleans are when rolled off a bit. If you dont have the best tone caps, just dont use it, use the vol instead.
Sorry if i cut it a bit too short, im late for an appointment!!!!!!! :oops:
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Wow, thanks for the great replies. I just want to clarify something, in case I sounded a bit negative earlier (that was not my intent). I am by no means disappointed with these pickups. They are incredible, quite unique in tone. I like them a lot, just having a difficult time finding that happy medium between the bridge and the neck. So with that said........
I sat down last night and devoted myself to finding the correct height for these pickups. I refuse to believe that such an incredible pickup can't make me happy. I adjusted up and down on the neck first because my clean neck tones are most dear to me and very important to achieving the sounds that I like most. Eventually, I found it. The neck had to be adjusted quite low actually. I didn't find it earlier because I don't normally adjust my neck pickup quite that low. It's about a mm down into the pickup ring(I normally have my neck about even with the top of the ring) and the treble side is about a turn higher than the bass side. It sounds brilliant!! The lows are super tight and poppy, the highs are glassy and clear. It's pretty damn close to where I like it.
I then tried to match up my bridge. That is a bit of a challenge for me because I am not one to just match up the outputs and then leave it. That was my problem before. Though the outputs matched up, I wasn't happy with the tone out of the bridge. I would then adjust up or down and that would obviously throw everything off. I would find myself moving the neck again. Anyway, I found the spot on the bridge where I was happy and the outputs matched. So, at about midnight (much to the dismay of everyone living within a half kilometer of me!!) I cranked it up and let it go. Frankly, it blew me away. The neck was warm but super tight. Crystal clear. The cleans were beautiful and dynamic. But, the neck is what really won me over. The tones were airey and super glassy (if that makes any sense). I have lots of air between the strings and the bridge pickup and I think that is the key. Incredible tones.
So, with that said I think I am pretty happy. IMHO the bridge could be a touch hotter. But, I don't know if I am willing to swap it for another pickup because I really like the clean tone. The neck could also be a touch smoother. Then again, I don't know if I am willing to sacrifice the smooth overdriven tones. I thought about a Stormy Monday and a Black Dog, but I think I am just being ridiculous and a bit too much of a perfectionist. Regardless, the Mules sound simply unbelievable, no doubt about it.
With that said, I am getting the slightest bit of ringing out of the pickups on the high strings, both pickups. Any idea what I can do about that?
It's not loud, just noticeable. (told you I was impossible to please!!)
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Well, I wrote Tim to ask him for his opinion. Despite liking what I have heard from these pickups, they may not be exactly what I am looking for. Not bad by any means, just different in some ways than what I need. A bit cleaner and crisper in the neck. The mule just seems a bit too round for me. In the bridge I would like just a bit more fire for solos. I really like the mule bridge clean, sounds great. But for solos I feel like I needed just a bit more bite. You know what I mean??
Anyway, suggestions anyone?? I haven't given up on the mules yet. I'm still playing around with them in the hopes that I find what I am looking for and don't have to annoy Tim with a swap.
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Ahh, forgot you bought your pups less than two weeks ago. I say if you don't think Mules are your best choice, don't hesitate to exchange them for something else! :) That's what the two-week trial period is there for. BTW, I also adjusted my Mules very low when I put heavy strings (12's) on my guitar. I recently went back to 10's and had to raise them again for more sensitivity.
I hope you'll find what you're looking for. 8)
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Thanks. Yeah, I got them last week. I'll wait on a reply from Tim to see what I do next. I am open for suggestions as well, since I haven't heard any of the other pickups.
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Hunter has some great Black Dog clips in the players section of the forum which may help you?
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I'll check it out.
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Right now I am playing through a Les Paul and Epiphone Valve Junior stack. The EVJ is generally a bit dark, I need something to brighten it a bit more.
A bit cleaner and crisper in the neck. The mule just seems a bit too round for me. In the bridge I would like just a bit more fire for solos. I really like the mule bridge clean, sounds great. But for solos I feel like I needed just a bit more bite. You know what I mean??
You really think your problem has to do with the Mules still?
Dont take this the wrong way, im always glad to help out, but you cant expect something like this from your rig. I have gone trough years of searching the right guitar/rig combination and spend alot of cash doing so, i now can switch from the brown sound(which is basically the bluesy tone which you can expect from your rig) to crispy clear fusion tone, but my rig is in a totally different league then yours.
Still i would say a riffraff would definately crisp/clear up your Epi VJ and give alot of extra attack, for the neck position im pretty sure you have the best in terms of clarity.
One mayor advice to give you is to get an eq pedal asap, youll get the neck tone you want easily when you could enhance the highs a bit more. You can also use it to switch to a better lead tone on your bridge pickup.
Good luck
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Right now I am playing through a Les Paul and Epiphone Valve Junior stack. The EVJ is generally a bit dark, I need something to brighten it a bit more.
A bit cleaner and crisper in the neck. The mule just seems a bit too round for me. In the bridge I would like just a bit more fire for solos. I really like the mule bridge clean, sounds great. But for solos I feel like I needed just a bit more bite. You know what I mean??
You really think your problem has to do with the Mules still?
I dont think the problem is the Mules. I remember ages ago when I had my Fender HRDx I always thought it was the mules that could do with a bit more power, bite etc, but since I got my Laney I realised that I just wasnt happy with the amp and the Mules sound great, glad I didnt sell mine now :D
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I appreciate your input. I have owned a good number of amps and guitars. I certainly don't expect wonders out of my current setup. I am looking for something that satisfies my own personal needs. The mules have a truly inspiring sound, just not far enough in the direction I need. They aren't far from what I want, just not close enough (does that make any sense??). I am quite confident that with the right set of BKP pickups, I can get it to where I want it to be. I can see already from the mules, that the quality and tone is above and beyond anything else out there.
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I appreciate your input. I have owned a good number of amps and guitars. I certainly don't expect wonders out of my current setup. I am looking for something that satisfies my own personal needs. The mules have a truly inspiring sound, just not far enough in the direction I need. They aren't far from what I want, just not close enough (does that make any sense??). I am quite confident that with the right set of BKP pickups, I can get it to where I want it to be. I can see already from the mules, that the quality and tone is above and beyond anything else out there.
Seriously, the eq pedal/boost thing is it... you need more versatility.
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Haha, well in response to Tom, I certainly wish I had the money at the moment to go to the music store and try the mules out on a few amps and then purchase the one I like most!! As a matter of fact, I am sure that if I still had my Fender Hot Rod Deville, this thread wouldn't even exist. One child later and a smaller apartment, I have had to downsize a bit. Although, I thoroughly enjoy playing the Valve Junior stack. I love its simplicity. Like I said, I don't expect a miracle to jump out of my amp. And, it's not really a mule problem. More of personal preference. Keep the input coming. Thanks!! :D
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I agree with Henk. An EQ pedal will work wonders. A Danelectro Fish N Chips is only £20 and is fine for what you need it for.
Ultimately though, your tone is seriously compromised by your amp.
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In response to the EQ, I hate pedals. Always have. I grew up watching my dad plug his 72 LP into a Fender Blackface and just letting it go. I went to a Buddy Guy concert in Chicago when I was 10 years old. All I can remember was him walking up there on stage with his axe, plugging it into his amp, and then just going to town for 2 hours. I have a Keeley modded SD-1, which I love, that I use as a boost. That's about it.
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If you won't use a pedal, how do you expect to get the tone you want from an amp that only has a volume control? Your only option is to get your amp modified to suit you, which is not worth the cost unless you can do it yourself........
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Like I said, because I am not that far off from where I want to be. Why would I go out and spend more money on a pedal when I just spent 250 euros on pickups, which I have a 2 week trial period on, that I feel are a bit heavy on the low end in the neck and need a bit more bite on the bridge ( according to my own personal preferences)?? Why not swap them out with something that has a bit more finesse in the neck and a bit more gain in the bridge? That is just how I look at it. I personally like the tone of my amp, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. I certainly didn't have a problem with the Burstbucker Pros being to heavy on the low end (they just sucked peiod!!).
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Even IF Twinfan.....
Yes, guitar playing is not about how many knobs your amp has, but being too basical about it wont get you closer to the sound you are looking for in your head.
Kind off reminds me of that artsy fartsy stuff where less is more and such, maybe great stuff to get a painting done really fast, but this has nothing to do with music, the complexity of tone is something very different, knowing the amp you father had, you should know about this....... Those old fenders are among the most complex sounds in existance.
PS, ive tried My mules in two guitars and on several amps, they are very balanced eq wise, a bit middy maybe, but they are certainly not bottom heavy.
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Yes, you are right. It certainly gives me something to think about. It is a well balanced pickup. It's hard to put into words what I mean, perhaps a bit too round.
You could say I take a simplistic approach to playing. I enjoy the "less is more" approach.
Although, as I said, I like the way my EVJ sounds. I mean, without making comparisons. In my experience, making too many comparisons just leads to spending more money!! LOL
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Each to their own I guess :)
It's just that in my experience pickups are a smaller part of your overall tone than your amp. I spent a lot of time and money hunting for my tone via a Marshall JTM60 and lots of pickups/guitars/pedals. I never found it.......
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Thanks for the input TwinFan, you got me thinking about a new amp now, much to my wife's dismay!! :( I'll see what Tim says. I just feel like trying out another pair won't cost me anything and might answer my questions, or not. I could very well kick myself later for getting rid of the Mules. We'll see.
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I hope you find what you're looking for, one way or another :)
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Sounds like a job for .....
Stormy Monday neck and Emerald bridge.
Everything I've heard from the SM neck sounds what you're asking for and as for the bridge Emerald ... If you want a bit of fire and bite, in a vintage 'hot' PAF manner then it will do that with ease.
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Great. Thanks for the recommendation! Everything I have seen so far tells me the Stormy Monday is what I need in the bridge. Which magnet I have no idea, I'll wait for Tim's input.
The Emerald is interesting, haven't heard that yet. I have also thought about the Riff Raff or Black Dog in the bridge. Any input there?? I basically need something a bit hotter than the Mule, but still a good clean tone.
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This thread was my showcase of the Emeralds doing crunchy Blues.
The bridge Emerald is from 02:04.
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10741
I like the clips of both the Riff Raff and Black Dog BKP's. It was a close call for me between them, the Rebel Yell and Mules.
I chose the Emeralds for the warmth of tone - with bite - that they can deliver. Both of these characteristics are there in this clip - even though the crunch is being produced only using modelling effects directly injected on a digital recorder.
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Wow! Great tone. I think I am looking for something that bites a bit more in the bridge though. But great job, super thick tone. Thanks a lot!
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I have also thought about the Riff Raff or Black Dog in the bridge. Any input there?? I basically need something a bit hotter than the Mule, but still a good clean tone.
I don't want to get too involved here, because these guys like Twinfan and Henk know way more about amps and "proper" gear than I ever will.
But just thinking about the pickups, you're probably spot on with the Stormy Monday for the neck. For the bridge, the Riff Raff is bright but I think it might be a little dry (can't think of a better word) for what you've been describing. The Black Dog is hotter but darker and more snarly. I haven't got a Mule personally, but I doubt the RR or BD will give better clean tones than the Mule.
What about the VHII? That's a brighter, open/dynamic pickup but still just in the PAF range, as pointed out in Henk's thread the other day.
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Yes, I do believe the Stormy Monday is spot on for the neck.
The bridge is my dilemma now. The mule is actually quite good. The cleans are outstanding for a bridge pickup. I just want a bit more snarl and bite for solos. I think I have closed the Emerald out, as it seems to have a quite pronounced low end.
The VHII is something I haven't heard yet and quite interesting. Would it match up ok with a Stormy Monday?? Like I said, I haven't played any of these so I am going off the clips and various input.
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Yes, I do believe the Stormy Monday is spot on for the neck.
Agreed
The bridge is my dilemma now. The mule is actually quite good. The cleans are outstanding for a bridge pickup. I just want a bit more snarl and bite for solos.
This is what pedals are for. I take it you're using your SD-1 for solos?
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Yeah, SD-1.
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Can you up the treble on the pedal for more bite?
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No, my SD-1 always has the tone maxed out as bright as it goes. That's how i keep it.
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You know, I really like the Mule bridge. I would hate to swap it just because I want a bit more bite. You just can't beat those clean tones for a bridge pickup! I wonder if Tim could wind it a bit tighter, squeeze out a bit more bite? That's all it needs.
As far as the neck goes, I am leaning towards the Stormy Monday.
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I wonder if Tim could wind it a bit tighter, squeeze out a bit more bite? That's all it needs.
Sounds like you want something in the PAF range with Alnico V. I think a Riff Raff would do that job well.
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It's just that in my experience pickups are a smaller part of your overall tone than your amp. I spent a lot of time and money hunting for my tone via a Marshall JTM60 and lots of pickups/guitars/pedals. I never found it.......
Its in the speaker/cab, yes ok also alot depends on how well you can 'communicate' with your power amp stage and all the rest obciously. I have said this before, -to me- (im talking from my own experience) the speaker are the voice, you can say brilliant things but if you shout like an idiot noone will listen to what you are saying anyway. Kind of rediculous sounding maybe, but i cant think of a better way to discribe it in a musical sence. Reminds me to get a better mic soon..... :oops:
You know, I really like the Mule bridge. I would hate to swap it just because I want a bit more bite. You just can't beat those clean tones for a bridge pickup! I wonder if Tim could wind it a bit tighter, squeeze out a bit more bite? That's all it needs.
I have pretty much given this alot of thought, but there is always the tradeoff raising its ugly head, the mules are as they should be, really.
The Riffraff will give you the bite you need on the amp you have now, BUT, if you are looking for a PAF which is comparable with the original Gibson PAF humbuckers, you allready have them.
IMVHO(which means : IN MY VERY HUMBLE OPINION!) you are crazy to change the Mules for anything that would sound a bit better on the amp you have now. Just take your guitar to a store and plug it into a quality Fender amp(or whatever brand) and base your thoughts on that, not on the EVJ. You just cant judge the quality of a fish when you toss it in the deep fat fryer....
Maybe not what you want to hear, but thats my honest opnion.
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I certainly understand your point and it makes complete sense to me. As a matter of fact, I agree with you 100%. And, I will most certainly be purchasing the Mules as some point or another again. I certainly wasn't judging them through my current setup. I just think that for my current setup something else would be a bit more practical.
I talked to Tim and he suggested an AIV Stormy Monday in the neck and a Riff Raff in the bridge.
Thanks a ton for your input. It all made sense to me. Once I get my new pair, I will let you know what my final verdict is, if it was a smart move or not. One thing is for sure. Down the road when my setup is bit different, I will be ordering the Mules again!!