Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Bird on January 25, 2008, 10:58:47 PM
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Anyone getting into or using low power amps :?: Read some reviews on a few of them like the Boogie express which goes down to 10 watts I think or the Blackheart BH5H in the new guitar world. Any thoughts :?:
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I tried them for a bit, but I can't get into their overly compressed tone. I like a big, open, crunchy sound and you just can't get that with a low watter. They compress and fatten up too much for me. That might be right up your street though!
I'm sticking to bigger amps with pedals, even for home practice.
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Haven't tried many myself just doing some reading. The 100 watt stacks just seem a bit much for home use these days. :) Although all the amps on my list are in the 50 to 100 watt range :roll:
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Love big amps...just can't warrant it at mo as not in band..and have neighbours....although did love my 60w prosonic (seemed louder than some 100's I've had)
But do love my TT which is still loud
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I have a 5w Laney Lionheart L5T-112. Low power but is a stunning sounding amp for the price - got it for £500.00. Spot on volume for bedroom and smaller rehearsals and gets mic'ed up to the PA if I need a bit more volume.
I used to have a Fender HRD but it was just way too loud (and heavy!) although I do miss the extra power from time to time.
I'm kind of getting into amps more than guitars now although I suspect that this will be just as expensive a hobby.
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I second what TwinFan said, in my experience actually, low power amps are designed to be cranked, and will then be much louder than a 100W amp on 0.01 master volume.
I had a Tiny Terror and sold it for that reason, great sound but too loud. Plus it had no loop, which was an issue for me.
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I second what TwinFan said, in my experience actually, low power amps are designed to be cranked, and will then be much louder than a 100W amp on 0.01 master volume.
I had a Tiny Terror and sold it for that reason, great sound but too loud. Plus it had no loop, which was an issue for me.
haha, that's true.
on other forums, any time anyone asks for a bedroom amp (almost regardless of the type of music), the epiphone valve junior seems to be recommended. I have one and I'm like :? :roll: :lol:
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Is the Orange tiny terror loud enough to gig with? I have never used one but could be interested as I am looking for a gigging amp that is fairly portable. Also, does it do 'clean' or is it just a rock mutha?
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Apparently flat out on the 15 watt setting a TT puts out 28 watts! It certainly feels/sounds that loud.
Have a look at the clips below comparing various Oranges including the TT all flat out!
It'll do cleans at low volumes only as it breaks up into lovely power amp distortion.
I'm really loving mine at the moment......
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P-PHqs4zBAc
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I was in Chandlers in Kew the other day looking at some Marshall vintage reissues and the salesman got me to try a 65amps Soho - 20 watt although I think they also do a 35 watt version. I'd never heard of them but was blown away by the tone and it seemed to be plenty loud enough for band use. Very simple controls including a defeatable (and very usable) master volume. Then he told me the price - £1500!
http://www.65amps.com/amps.html
Trouble is the Marshalls sounded quite flat by comparison afterwards and I'd find it difficult to settle for that now. I'm debating whether or not to save the extra and wait for another six months or so.
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65 amps are one of the most highly rated boutique amp manufacturers, hence the price! I think if there is something you really want, you save for it. It makes you play better and find the tone your after.
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Compared to a high end booteek amp a marshall vintage can sound flat i agree. I often found booteek amps based on the EL84 to have an enhanced and very tastefull presence control which the marshalls dont have. However, an amps basic function is to amplify a signal and there is only so much you can change really. Im pretty sure with a little tweaking and probably something to bypass the flat ass eq of a vintage marshal it will sing the same. I actually like the flat marshall eq, its a very basic amp really and you need to work to get your sound right. I often do think the booteeks fail at more vintage 'brown' sounds though, integrated 'tone enhancers' just make it a on trick pony IMVHO.
I wont say anything about small amps vs. big amps anymore, no i wont :lol:
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Yet again, I think I'll have to disagree with Henk :lol:
New Marshalls do sound flat - Vintage moderns, DSLs etc don't have that depth of tone to my ears. New Marshall reissues appear to be made with less than ideal components from what I can see, so their tone suffers. There's nothing wrong with a Marshall circuit, it's the quality of the components that makes a big difference. And contrary to what Henk says, there are LOTS of things you can change in an amp that wil make a BIG difference to how it sounds.
If you like the Marshall tone, a clone is the way to go in my opinion. They're such good value for money, sound superb, and are much more reliable/less worn out than vintage amps. Old amps are best left to the collectors ;)
I'd put my JTM45 clone up against any "booteek" amp for a tone comparison. Using JJ valves throughout each amp (to level the playing field) I'm sure it would equal anything.
And it didn't cost anything like £1500..........
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Allright, we were talking about quality amps though, it is your opinion the modern vintage amps are made from cr@p parts, i have no opinion on that subject. However even with the best parts put in, it still just amplifies your guitar which can be great or horrible. I actually am pretty sure i can make your precious clone sound like sheit by the way, not every guitar shines on an amp.
They're such good value for money, sound superb, and are much more reliable/less worn out than vintage amps. Old amps are best left to the collectors
On the subject of disagreeing, you really cant be more wrong then this. A vintage amps is simple, made from way better parts then any chinese can make now, anything flawed has broken down allready and has been replaced. I have gigged a late 70's Peavey troughout the 90's, it got tossed around, kicked and splilled upon, if not gigging it was in our practice 'shack' where there was no heating. The only time it failed to work in those 9-10 years was when i killed the reverb and had to take it out of the path. And offcourse i had to replace the fuse with a stronger one since it would pop too easily when abusing it like i did, so to be reallyreally complete i did have to replace one popped fuse when i got it :? .
Other than that it never ever let me down. Same with my JCM head, when i had it i had been playing it for about 5 years prior to when i had to stop playing due to work for a few years, not even a hickup. Without any doubt, i would rather hit the road with a good vintage amp then a new clone.
I would be glad to hear of your clones keeping up with that for so many years.....
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Is the Orange tiny terror loud enough to gig with? I have never used one but could be interested as I am looking for a gigging amp that is fairly portable. Also, does it do 'clean' or is it just a rock mutha?
I keep saying this, I rehearse and gig with a TT and an Orange 1x12, and it is plenty loud. The volume will be full, but gain down at 4ish, gives a nice clean/crunch type sound. Not pristine Fender cleans, but very useable and sounds awesome.
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Allright, we were talking about quality amps though, it is your opinion the modern vintage amps are made from cr@p parts, i have no opinion on that subject.
I didn't say cr@p parts, just less than ideal. Marshall are famous for being tight on costs.
I actually am pretty sure i can make your precious clone sound like sheit by the way, not every guitar shines on an amp.
I can also make it sound bad too - by doing my EVH impression for example :roll: And who said it's precious? It's a working tool.
A vintage amps is simple, made from way better parts then any chinese can make now.....
I disagree. Some of the parts used in 'vintage' Marshalls were low quality or incorrect, especially as time went on. For example the output transformer on a JTM45 was underspec'd from day one and they were cheap to buy! In the seventies circuits and parts were changed to keep costs down, and PCBs were added to reduce build costs. Marshall have never been a high quality maker, they built amps that were "good enough".
I would be glad to hear of your clones keeping up with that for so many years.....
I'll let you know how I get on. Mine is rehearsed and gigged regularly, and the new one will be too :)
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Yeah well, pretty much the whole manifacturing deal is to build something great at low cost, not only Marshall does that.
But anyway, to prevent a yes/no foodfight i guess your idea of a good standard is different from mine. I wouldnt say the JTM45 had a cheapo tranny because they just were made like that, and sounded great for that matter. Somehow i allways though this kind of talk were put into the world so it would seem there is a 'better' version of the same vintage amp. To be honest i dont know, the cheapo clones ive tried didnt convince me at least. Like i said before i think most quality booteek ' low wattage' amps have a huge cranked lead tone, but when you try to find a decent brownsound or even just a smashingly emo clean its clear again that everything comes at a big tradeoff and those vintage model amps just cant be beat.
I really dont care about what amp anyone uses, i do however think one should think ten times before investing money in something that has not yet proven its worth in musical history.
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Yeah well, pretty much the whole manifacturing deal is to build something great at low cost, not only Marshall does that.
Rubbish. Do Ferrari, who are a manufacturer, build something great at low cost? No. They build something that's cost effective, something that gives them a profit of course, but they are not building something at 'low cost'. A Ferrari is pretty damn expensive to make!
To be honest i dont know, the cheapo clones ive tried didnt convince me at least.
Which ones have you tried? What makes an amp a 'cheapo' clone?
Like i said before i think most quality booteek ' low wattage' amps have a huge cranked lead tone, but when you try to find a decent brownsound or even just a smashingly emo clean its clear again that everything comes at a big tradeoff
I agree. Small boutique amps are generally designed to sound saturated for recording purposes, so there's a compromise. Clean headroom and 'space' in the tone being the obvious one.
I really dont care about what amp anyone uses, i do however think one should think ten times before investing money in something that has not yet proven its worth in musical history.
Do you SERIOUSLY believe that? How does something get to "prove it's worth" unless someone buys it/gigs it/records with it in the first place? So Clapton thought "ten times" before recording the Beano album with an unpopular Les Paul and a brand new Bluesbreaker combo did he?
I guess he should have used an old Martin acoustic, a ribbon mic and a valve radio......
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I think its all subjective to your tastes tbh. With the boutique amps and high prices, yes you are paying a premium for name and the fact its hand made but you are paying for high quality components to get the best potential sound from an amp (e.g Bogner Shiva) and reliability but it doesnt guarantee it.
The fact a component is cheap may not be a disadvantage. It may sound great.
I think reliability is questionable with old amps. You're right in saying if you've gigis with it for years then it is realiable but the chance of fault with cheaper parts is higher. I dont think you can say they were that reliable. Hendrix used to burn through his. Also, big bands have techs and spares so you wouldnt know when things go wrong.
Clones are only as good as the parts and the person who puts them together.
Anyway.... Low Watts amps? Some of you mentioned you get better sounds with high watters at low volume? HOw do you achieve this? Is this done through Master volumes/Attenuators/power scaling or just nudging the amp till you get the volume low enough?
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Anyway.... Low Watts amps? Some of you mentioned you get better sounds with high watters at low volume? HOw do you achieve this? Is this done through Master volumes/Attenuators/power scaling or just nudging the amp till you get the volume low enough?
A master volume for me with my Klipp Super Bass, or an HT-Dual pedal though my JTM45 set clean. I prefer the latter in particular to the built in valve overdrive of my Matamp Little Rock. More space, more clarity, better harmonic complexity.
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Rubbish. Do Ferrari, who are a manufacturer, build something great at low cost? No. They build something that's cost effective, something that gives them a profit of course, but they are not building something at 'low cost'. A Ferrari is pretty damn expensive to make!
Offcourse they make alot of profit on those, are you that naive? A factories overhead/labor alone cost probably more then just the parts.
Which ones have you tried? What makes an amp a 'cheapo' clone?
Alot of London cities, Rockaforte(?), Floyd, Sovtek, Hiwatt, Gun(?), Metro and probably a couple of others i cant remember. Not all cheapo but sounded like something that is cheaply made to me at least.
But still, its not the question you should be asking yourself, you should be asking yourself where the hell you can check out a real vintage Marshall so you at least have a rough idea why i am saying this stuff. You can try and convince the hell out of me, but please dont say your jtm45 will whoopass a real vintage one.......
Do you SERIOUSLY believe that? How does something get to "prove it's worth" unless someone buys it/gigs it/records with it in the first place? So Clapton thought "ten times" before recording the Beano album with an unpopular Les Paul and a brand new Bluesbreaker combo did he?
I guess he should have used an old Martin acoustic, a ribbon mic and a valve radio......
Youre comparing apples and eggs, obviously there was no such reference back then. And obviously there also were no amps that could do what was needed in that era. Industrial revolution peaked in the late 60's, early 70's and amps made in that era are considered to be the best made amps ever. You can disagree what you want, its just the friggin plain truth.
This reference, listening to music of your favorite guitarist, trying to play his stuff, is not only a big motivation but has been a great source of inspiration to many. Yes i have a Bluesbreaker reissue and yes the though of Claptons music made me interested in it since i had a reference of which sounds i could get from it. And yes it helped me find even more of the sounds i have in my head and yes i enjoy playing it and thats what its about. The versatility to try different things, be creative and offcourse making a mess of it too.
All adds to the creative process, inventing the wheel all over again is not for everyone, i would think someone playing in an AC/DC cover band should at least understand that.
And even then, you seem to have alot of vintage stuff, cloned or not, who are you to advice people to try modern designed gear.... ey?
Greetings and sorry for the lengtly read, Henk[/quote]
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Alot of London cities, Rockaforte(?), Floyd, Sovtek, Hiwatt, Gun(?), Metro and probably a couple of others i cant remember. Not all cheapo but sounded like something that is cheaply made to me at least.
They're not all clones, they're amps in their own right (Hiwatt for example). You think a Metro amp sounds cheap? I would say you're in the minority there as most people seem to love them - I've heard several soundclips and they sounded good to me!
But still, its not the question you should be asking yourself, you should be asking yourself where the hell you can check out a real vintage Marshall so you at least have a rough idea why i am saying this stuff. You can try and convince the hell out of me, but please dont say your jtm45 will whoopass a real vintage one.......
I've never said it would. I'd certainly like to have the opportunity to do a comparison, especially if the old one was valved with JJs the same as mine :)
Industrial revolution peaked in the late 60's, early 70's and amps made in that era are considered to be the best made amps ever. You can disagree what you want, its just the friggin plain truth.
So nobody thinks a JCM800/Mesa Boogie/Cornford/Trainwreck/Dumble/Bogner is the best made amp ever? I reckon I can find one or two ;) Your view is not the truth, it's just opinion.
And even then, you seem to have alot of vintage stuff, cloned or not, who are you to advice people to try modern designed gear.... ey?
I can advise people to try whatever I want to. What they choose to do is up to them :)
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Sorry dude, industrial revolution was the 1860s :P
to take a lil' politics trip, Britain has only just finished paying off huge loans from the US from WWII, although not alive then, looking at the 60's and 70's, people used what they could find, I am sure the valves used changed at some point due to sources drying up ?? or was that EL34s in the 90s.
If you want an example, look at early Milton Keynes.... *shudders*
edit: and Marshall is in MK :P didn't think of that at the time :? excuse me being stupid
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Enough please girls. Stop bickering and go and have a practice and calm down :lol:
It doesn't matter if it's vintage, cloned, modern, hand wired, pcbs, massed produced, big transformers, valve, solid state, cr@p - if you're happy with the sound and it inspires you, great. You don't have to (and never will) convince everybody else you've got the most magical setup in the world - just play the ****ing thing and chill out.
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Popcorn anyone?!
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Popcorn anyone?!
Sweet or salted? :lol:
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I can advise people to try whatever I want to. What they choose to do is up to them :)
Yeah well its clear your not taking this discussion seriously, nor the advice you give people who are seriously asking. Its always an easy way out to find an exeption, but so be it.
Oh and Will, i meant technological revolution obviously, sorry if i confused you..... :P
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Oh and Will, i meant technological revolution obviously, sorry if i confused you..... :P
I was being picky with your words :wink: knew what you meant really lol
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A few of points to add:
Firstly, the stock of old amps (vintage Marshalls or whatever) that is around now is the selected cream of the crop, subjected to many years of testing. The unreliable and poor sounding ones will have been consigned to landfill long ago.
Secondly, yes I've heard a few vintage amps of diffent kinds. Some sounded very nice. Some sounded cr@p. Bottom line is, there is no mojo or magic, except in the mind of someone who's just spent 10K and therefore needs, subconsciously, to convince themselves of the worth of their own judgement. Circuits is circuits, and parts is parts.
Thirdly, quality is quality, no matter which country it appears from. The Taiwanese etc can produce very high quality parts, consistently, for low prices. Ask anyone involved in the electronics industry. In electronic terms, quality now is better than ever, with all measurable data showing greater consistency, accuracy and longevity.
Fourthly, component value drift (why many older amps sound different to each other, and different to what they sounded like when new) needs to be considered. This can make (for example) and old amp sound darker (sometimes stated as mellow or warm) than the identical amp made with modern components, AND CRITICALLY, darker than it sounded itself when it was new. Personally I prefer the original sparkle and shimmer that the amps would have had when new!
Fifth, TF's right, Marshall etc were not building high quality amps back in the day. To say that these run-of -the-mill amps are in some way superior to any of the high quality, hand made amps available today (yes, including my own) is ascribing unsubstantiated magic to something just because it is old. I've poked around inside of, and more importantly listened to, enough old amps to know that it's nonsense.
:wink:
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I was actually more interested in the low wattage amps discussion and feel slightly responsible for mentioning boutique manufacturers and sending it off topic. Having said that, if you're interested in amps of that wattage (as I am) you can't ignore the boutique amps as loads of them are in the 18 - 20 watt range.
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If I may weigh in very shortly on what Martin said, he is 100% correct. Quality issues have become less of a factor in recent years when buying overseas products. Quality control is becoming more and more respectable in countries such as Korea, China, Taiwan, etc. In contrast, you are beginning to see a fall off in the Quality Control of traditional products.
If I might add, I find it quite pointless to argue over guitar equipment. These days, product quality varies greatly from product to product within a company. While your last Gibson Custom Shop R10 may have been a dream to play, the next may be a complete disaster. It's just the fact of the matter.
Lastly, what is important is that you find a product that you are happy with. Guitar players are a small breed and as we all know, nearly everything in music and sound is subjective. What your botique amp does for you, may do nothing for me. So, it is all quite pointless.
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I really dont care about what amp anyone uses, i do however think one should think ten times before investing money in something that has not yet proven its worth in musical history.
Complete utter nonsense.
If an amp sounds good, and is versatile, and useful for what you want to play - You're not going to wait for it to hit the charts before buying one.
If you want to just copy the spec of your favourite guitarist - then buy signature models.
It's like saying nobody should buy a Blackstar - Which are just superb amps, simply because nobodies touring with one yet...
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I really dont care about what amp anyone uses, i do however think one should think ten times before investing money in something that has not yet proven its worth in musical history.
If everyone went by that logic, nobody would ever buy any new products and no musical history would ever be made, or it would just be extremely stagnant.
If you like the sound of an amp, yu use it. Why the hell does it matter in the slightest what its history is, or who else has used it, blah blah blah.
I agree that tried-and-tested products offer a degree of safety for the consumer, as they know what they're buying is (or isn't) a quality product, but what your saying is just ridiculous.
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:lol:
Anyway, taking something out of context is pointless also.
Anyway, alot of talk about great part from taiwan and whatever, still i doubt anyone would buy a bad sounding amp.
I do know my 'run-of-the-mill' or whatever Marshall amps sound good for what they are used for and have at least doubled in value since i bought them.
Yes, the demand for certain amps is high and im taking advantage of that factor. Are all these people who desperately want a bluesbreaker because Clapton had one stupid because they can buy a better build amp for the same money?
Well im not getting into that really. I am trying to give an usefull piece of advice, a friend of mine had bought a booteek amp for way too much money IMO and when he wanted to sell it he couldnt get rid of it for half of what it cost him, just because noone knew it and didnt care to try.
And even then and amp amplifies, sounds good or not, i never said it wasnt that simple. Actually i did say it was that simple.
Anyway, ive gotten even more interested in those Matamps of yours Martinw, got to check em out if i have the opportunity. Ive heard alot of bad tubes and caps in old amps too. But not in my landfill JCM and im eager to see how it holds up :twisted:
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Wow did this thread go for a ride. :lol: Someone mentioned that the low watt amps have to be cranked to get a good sound. Seems to be the case. In the guitar world review on the Blackheart he says the amp is very loud despite being 3 to 5 watts. To get nice tone out of it he's got it cranked. Guess I'll have to go with the Mesa Roadster :wink:
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Guess I'll have to go with the Mesa Roadster :wink:
well that is the obvious solution :lol:
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Guess I'll have to go with the Mesa Roadster :wink:
well that is the obvious solution :lol:
:lol: It's just the amp at the top of my list right now... guess I neglected to mention that. :)
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Anyway, taking something out of context is pointless also.
Anyway, alot of talk about great part from taiwan and whatever, still i doubt anyone would buy a bad sounding amp.
I do know my 'run-of-the-mill' or whatever Marshall amps sound good for what they are used for and have at least doubled in value since i bought them.
Yes, the demand for certain amps is high and im taking advantage of that factor. Are all these people who desperately want a bluesbreaker because Clapton had one stupid because they can buy a better build amp for the same money?
Well im not getting into that really. I am trying to give an usefull piece of advice, a friend of mine had bought a booteek amp for way too much money IMO and when he wanted to sell it he couldnt get rid of it for half of what it cost him, just because noone knew it and didnt care to try.
And even then and amp amplifies, sounds good or not, i never said it wasnt that simple. Actually i did say it was that simple.
Anyway, ive gotten even more interested in those Matamps of yours Martinw, got to check em out if i have the opportunity. Ive heard alot of bad tubes and caps in old amps too. But not in my landfill JCM and im eager to see how it holds up :twisted:
How can I follow that??? :lol:
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I have a lot of low powered amps, if you are talking 20w and less, in fact at the moment I only have 2 amps that are more than 20w, my 50W Silver Jubilee combo and my Trace Elliott BLX.
I have several Fenders (Deluxe Reverb, Princeton Reverb, Princeton II and a Silver Face hotrodded Princeton Reverb). All of them (other than the hotrodded), use 2 6V6 output tubes and are 18-20w, however they all can get incredible clean tones, and can also get very gritty. I also have quite a few boutique amps, which do have higher gain preamps, but can still clean up when needed.
Some amps are really not designed to have a 'clean' sound (one of my McIntyres has crunch and lead channels). You have to figure out what you want. Master volumes many times just end up with preamp gain with no power tube distortion, and this sounds much less defined than having some of the crunch from the power tubes.
Going with an amp with a Triode/Pentode or class A/AB switching will give a better low volume tone than a master volume IMHO.
I have had many older valve amps and was emailing with Nik from Ceriatone about some of the sounds that I liked from them. I am getting a couple of amps from him and they will be higher wattage than anything I currently have (actually about the same as the Silver Jubilee), but will have triode/pentode switching for the output valves.
Speakers also make a big difference, many low power amps have a single 8, 10 or perhaps 12 inch speaker, vs multiple speakers for higher powered amps. I always feel that you get more clarity from multiple speakers. Another think is the sensitivity of the speaker, using a 93db G12M vs a 100db Vintage 30 will cut the volume significantly if you are using it with the same amp and settings.
The best bet is to try a few, but don't be put off with the wattage. You have to decide if you want more clean headroom, and if you do, then you can always do what we used to do in the past, which is use a pedal to drive the amp so you don't have to bring up the volume.
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I was going to post earlier but thankfully the proxy I have to use in work prevents 90% of posts.
Firstly after 8 hours I'm still trying get my head around being told that Hiwatt amps sound cheap, of all the amps you could mention it's a pretty poor choice (sorry Henk, are you talking about the hiwatt badged practice amps ?)
Secondly I hope that I am not being overly generous by saying that the current spat is being caused by English not being Henks 1st language (you actually do come across as patronising and combative in so many threads.)
Bigger is not always better, but can be much more fun.
Personally I like small amps being pushed to their limit, for example the ZVex nano head (0.7 watts) was to get a cranked plexi type sound without a high death rate for studio microphones, not the best amp in the world but it sounds excellent when used in the correct context.
Many people have used smaller amps to great effect (Billy Gibbons (Old Grey Whistle Test appearence 1980), Clapton (once he stopped being a guitar hero)) but live they used something larger (and involving payment) otherwise how can the endorsement deals for MusicMan amps be accounted for.
I loved the live Hendrix tone from the 100 watters with the sound coming from poweramp distortion and speakers getting upset, I love the Gilmour tone from a clean(ish) amp and well chosen pedals and I love Gibbons @ the BBC with a 5 watt no name amp.
Old amps can be sh1te or brilliant, but natural selection (old cr@p ones where became landfill or where fixed), selective memory and the emperors new clothes syndrome takes care of the rest.
Some modern boutique amps are also sh1te, perhaps more suited to the studio or actually amazing. Each should be judged on tone and reliability (not the build date or who once played it)
Resale dosn't reflect quality or tone, but current trends (emperors new clothes) and brand name.
I'm biased towards Twinfans point of view that a good basic design, with good quality componants will give a great tone (dependant on the players fingers), and you basically have to pay for that. That is not something Marshall have EVER been known for.
A Chinese mfgr with decent components and PCB construction can also produce a great sounding amp with a properly designed PCB. P2P wiring is so good for running repairs and low volume production, but P2P is NOT required for great tone.
I was trained in this sh1t (but escaped to something that pays much better).
Lets get back to the original topic of a good quality low wattage amp.
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How can I follow that??? :lol:
That is the whole problem in this discussion anyway :P . Not that you dont understand, but you seem to get a kick out of being a barsteward about peoples opinions.
At risk of getting flamed once again for it, which i am quite used to anyway, lets explain the same thing all over again........
Those old amps have proven their worth, like is said, the bad samples have been tossed or brought up to proper performance, the bad ones are easily identified when listened to. Once made with whatever quality parts isnt much of an arguement, if an amp has worked well for 30 some years and it still sounds good, its not likely to be a cr@p amp.
Secondly, i dont care what someone buys, the only thing i wanted to say on this subject is that after years of buying and selling AND having developed quite a GASSY syndrome as far as guitar equipment is consearned. My conclusion is that i can get -at least- a decent tone out of any amp, and enjoy finding those really great tones, and that what pissed me off afterwards is that when i wanted to sell something the lack of demand made me lose alot of money on them OR noone wanted it at all and i had it standing around without using it. The persuit for the 'perfect' tone is something different though, i dont really care about that because i think that concept changes too much with me anyway.
Thirdly, to me at least, the reference of sounds players before me have used. It just makes seaching for sounds much easier, cr@ppy arguement probably, but to me thats an interesting factor.
Finally, no matter what i or anyone else says here, if someone doesnt want to be convinced, they wont be anyway. You can all disagree with me, but this is my opinion.
Secondly I hope that I am not being overly generous by saying that the current spat is being caused by English not being Henks 1st language (you actually do come across as patronising and combative in so many threads.)
Well, i can imagine that my english isnt up to the standard here. And i do not have the 'british' reserve, calling me patronising and combative is in this respect probably true for some of you. Taking the situation into account(i AM saying stuff some people wont like to hear!) i dont think i have crossed any lines, if so feel free to notify me with a pm or whatever.
And for that matter, i do feel free to express my opinion, rethinking what i have wrote i may be have said stuff some dont like to hear, but i really dont think i might have offended someone, at least not someone who offended me to start with.
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How can I follow that??? :lol:
That is the whole problem in this discussion anyway :P . Not that you dont understand, but you seem to get a kick out of being a barsteward about peoples opinions.
OK - I'll admit I got a bit childish at the end of yesterday. For that I apologise.
And just to clarify I'm not getting a kick out of anything. You've stated your opinions on some things as being 'fact'. That needed correcting, so I've done so for the benefit of folks reading this and other posts.
From what you've said, it sounds like you've bought lots of music gear in the past only to lose a lot of money on it? So you're advising people to only buy Gibson, Fender and Marshall so they don't get burned like you did? Is that right?
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OK - I'll admit I got a bit childish at the end of yesterday. For that I apologise.
And just to clarify I'm not getting a kick out of anything. You've stated your opinions on some things as being 'fact'. That needed correcting, so I've done so for the benefit of folks reading this and other posts.
From what you've said, it sounds like you've bought lots of music gear in the past only to lose a lot of money on it? So you're advising people to only buy Gibson, Fender and Marshall so they don't get burned like you did? Is that right?
Well ok, there are no facts, maybe generally acepted opinions, but even then its a rather stupid thing to say here i agree and apologise for that.
I am advicing to consider what you are buying in terms of resale value ALSO, at least ive tried to do that. Offcourse im not trying to say people should only buy Fender/Gibson/Marshall, if anything im saying some amps(OLD Fenders/Gibsons/Marshalls for example) have better resale value, vintage gear are pretty high quality usually and if kept well, can serve you very well for many years, even increasing in value if your lucky.
Talking amps for a sec, the early 2203's, which a few years ago could be bought for a couple of hundred euros, now are worth at least twice as much if you managed to get a good clean sample, and thats a conservative estimate, ive seen those 2203's now being sold for more then 1500 euros.
That at least to me seemed an interesting arguement to consider, at least if your into vintage amp sounds at least.
I know it wont be an interesting POV to everyone, but for some i guess it could save alot of money or even make some in the long run.
Thinking about this i dont know if i would have missed out on using anything other then the amps i have now, well i do think versatility is a very big factor ampwise, if not the biggest factor. If you need several amps to play the sounds you want.......
Thats kind of the thing i have against small amps(to get back on topic), its all getting too commercial for my taste. They probably sound good cranked, but when you need a different sound you then need to get another amp and so on and so forth. I personally rather have a very versatile amp which maybe doesnt shine at some sounds, but has an overall tone that appeals to me.
Anyway, alot to think about i guess. To answer your question TF, yes, if i knew what i know now about the amps i have i would not have bought all the other gear. On the other hand, i am kind off stuck in the vintage tone department and i love it, and i suppose for anyone thats not, having a vintage amp wont get you anywhere in the modern tonerange. Well offcourse a good clean/vintage amp might do the trick, Fender Bassman head or something like that, owell, im blabbering again....
So there, now im really fed up with talking about what i think, ill try to shut it more often, i promise, really i will :roll:
EDIT: To be clear about this, i do think resale value is just one factor to consider, this should not apply to those in persuit of 'the perfect tone', that offcourse has to do with quality parts and such. If i led anyone to believe this i apologise for that. Vintage amps do have certain oddities and quirks soundwise, some might find that adding to the character of the tone, alot would probably find that very irritating.
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Resale is all well and good, and it's something to consider I guess, but I would say the overriding factor in deciding to buy a piece of musical gear is whether it sounds good. I've NEVER bought anything based on resale.
I'd say buy with your ears. If you like the sound of something - buy it :)
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Well, i can imagine that my english isnt up to the standard here. And i do not have the 'british' reserve, calling me patronising and combative is in this respect probably true for some of you. Taking the situation into account(i AM saying stuff some people wont like to hear!) i dont think i have crossed any lines, if so feel free to notify me with a pm or whatever.
It wasn't a criticism of your English (I only have about 6 words of Dutch so I really cant critisize), but in the way the message actually reads, it is a problem that we all suffer from on occasions.
Personally I can do without combative side of things (if I want that I can spend some extra time in work :roll:) and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. If it was a conversation in a bar I'm sure it would have sounded much more good natured than what appears on screen within this thread.
This is a public thread with somebody asking for advice so lets respect that fact and get back to the original post.
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I edited my post, youre right its just a single factor to think about offcourse, rereading it all i can see now how people might gather i stated it as 'the all overruling factor', but offcourse that isnt so. It could however be of use to those investing alot of cash into their gear like i have.
Kind off hard to express my thought in proper english/subtle enough terms though :oops:
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It wasn't a criticism of your English (I only have about 6 words of Dutch so I really cant critisize), but in the way the message actually reads, it is a problem that we all suffer from on occasions.
Personally I can do without combative side of things (if I want that I can spend some extra time in work :roll:) and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. If it was a conversation in a bar I'm sure it would have sounded much more good natured than what appears on screen within this thread.
This is a public thread with somebody asking for advice so lets respect that fact and get back to the original post.
If i didnt think i had a good point to be made i wouldnt have added to this thread anyway, so thats it, i regret it did take the form of a discussion.
Still, it isnt that hard to just find another thread to read if you dont like this one. You should know its not my usual way to discuss too much about something really subjective anyway.
But i did give the advice i have to give, it turned out to be worth a discussion, so thats it as far as i am consearned, i think we have cleared any misunderstandings up now, so....