Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Doctor X on February 03, 2008, 09:37:03 AM
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As I'll have a bit of disposable cash available at the end of the month I thought I might get hold of a set of PG Blues for my LP. However, I've got a couple of queries that I'm hoping you knowledgeable folks will be able to clear up first.
Firstly, I know that the neck is wired permanently out of phase with the bridge rather than magnetically out of phase, but I'm not sure what this means? i.e. what would be the difference between these and, say, wiring 4 conductor Stormy Mondays so they're out of phase?
Secondly, is it essential to attach the neck pickup to the guitar with the screw poles facing the bridge rather than the neck? I'd rather avoid this if possible.
Cheers!
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With 4 wiring you can electrically change the phase of one pickup, but with the PG Blues the only time the out of phase is noticable is when you use both pickups together. Each pickup on its own just sounds like a regular humbucker. Unfortunately because of this, the neck pickup has to be turned to give the sound. I'm not sure if it can be made any other way without compromising the sound. What about getting an uncoverd set, then it wouldn't be as obvious?
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With 4 wiring you can electrically change the phase of one pickup, but with the PG Blues the only time the out of phase is noticable is when you use both pickups together.
With 4-conductor wiring you can put one pickup's coils out of phase with each other, but that's a different thing (and sounds horrible).
But you can also swap the connections for one of the two pickups (i.e. black to hot, red to ground) and that will put the pickups out of phase with each other. Again, that would only produce a noticeable effect with both pickups on. I think I've read that this is somehow different from physically reversing the magnet in the pickup, but I'm not sure why.
I didn't think it would make any difference which way round the pickup was oriented in the mounting ring, but I'm probably wrong.
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Thanks for the replies! With the PG Blues do both pickups have to be at the same volume to get the out of phase effect?
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With 4 wiring you can electrically change the phase of one pickup, but with the PG Blues the only time the out of phase is noticable is when you use both pickups together.
With 4-conductor wiring you can put one pickup's coils out of phase with each other, but that's a different thing (and sounds horrible).
But you can also swap the connections for one of the two pickups (i.e. black to hot, red to ground) and that will put the pickups out of phase with each other. Again, that would only produce a noticeable effect with both pickups on. I think I've read that this is somehow different from physically reversing the magnet in the pickup, but I'm not sure why.
I didn't think it would make any difference which way round the pickup was oriented in the mounting ring, but I'm probably wrong.
Hi Dr. X :)
I agree with the above observations and will add just a little more about my perceptions of the difference between magnetic or wiring methods of achieving the out of phase effect as I have experienced it.
I have wired a pair of Mules in a Les Paul as Philly said - and I get the 'Peter Green' effect when both pickups are on together. To answer your question about the volume controls, YES - the settings of the volume controls will exagerate or minimise how much the pickups will cancel each other out. Manipulating the volume controls, and to a lesser degree the tone controls will dial in and out the degree of not only the effect - but the softness / brightness of the sound . It may seem obvious of me to say that the tone controls control the 'softness' - but when you have the weaker sounding 'nasal' tone engaged - every nuance is noticable.
I once did the magnet mod on my stock Les Paul bridge pickup - and the effect is similar - but less dramatic / noticeable when used in tandem with a non modded pickup.
I also did not need to turn the pickup so the pole peices where in the 'wrong' direction to make this work. Perhaps it might shape the tone due to the pole pieces at a different part of the string's oscillation ?
There is a lovely ( and very authentic ) demonstration somewhere in the 'Players' section of this forum - from a guy that just did the wiring mod to a pair of standard Stormy Mondays on his S.G.
I of course would be willing to be corrected by Tim on this one, but have found that 'standard' Stormy Mondays or Mules responded well to just changing the connections on the B.K.P. 4 conductor wiring in the control cavivty.
You raise a very interesting question Dr. X - and ( as a Peter Green affectionado ) I will follow this thread with interest.
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a vid of my lp with a set of BKP PG blues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRbrO_VyEqs
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Thanks for the input!
I used to have a set of 4 conductor Mules and tried swapping the read and black wires on the neck pickup for the out of phase middle sound. I kinda liked it. I'm just trying to figure out if there is any difference between wiring pickups in this manner and the PG Blues set.
In the News forum where Tim did the 'PG Blues now available thread, he states that: "the neck pickup is wired so that it is permenantly out of phase with the bridge when in the middle position(not magnetically out of phase as often incorrectly quoted)."
I'm guessing that there will be some relevance to this with regard to the tone? Have any PG Blues owners tried the wiring method to get out of phase sounds on other pickups who are able to comment on any differences between the two or is out of phase going to be the same whichever method is used to acheive it?
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I think the "permanently out of phase" comment refers to the fact that the PG set has old-skool braided pickup wires (2 conductor). So you can't just swap red/black like you can with 4 way wiring ;)
The PG set has a different wind to a Stormy Monday too if I remember rightly, to make it even more authentic.
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I think the "permanently out of phase" comment refers to the fact that the PG set has old-skool braided pickup wires (2 conductor). So you can't just swap red/black like you can with 4 way wiring ;)
Yep, that's my assumption too.
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Sounds plausible enough - thanks!
I came across this website while google searching: http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/faq/seymours-q-a/701725/
If you scroll down to 710 it mentions various types of out of phase. I thought maybe permanently out of phase could possibly be another way to describe electrically, series or parallel out of phase? It's all too technical for my simple brain I'm sorry to say but was wondering if there's a sound difference between the different methods.
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If you scroll down to 710 it mentions various types of out of phase. I thought maybe permanently out of phase could possibly be another way to describe electrically, series or parallel out of phase? It's all too technical for my simple brain I'm sorry to say but was wondering if there's a sound difference between the different methods.
I've read all that and now I'm none the wiser, but with a splitting headache. :(
Well done finding that in the Duncan FAQs, there are so many of them I always just give up.
I don't know about the BKP set, but I'm 90% certain Peter Green (or a tech) accidentally flipped the magnet in his pickup (as well as reinstalling the pickup upside down), so I guess that's magnetically put of phase.
What he doesn't explain is the difference in sound (if any) between electrically and magnetically put of phase.
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Tim gives a bit of info about the PG pickup on this thread: http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8606&highlight=phase
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Ah, so the neck pickup is actually wound in reverse - and therefore, presumably, the magnet isn't reversed or we'd be (sort of) back where we started. I think.
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Ah, so the neck pickup is actually wound in reverse - and therefore, presumably, the magnet isn't reversed or we'd be (sort of) back where we started. I think.
exactly... if you would reverse both the winding and the magnet you would have a pickup that would sound in-phase with the other.
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I think I won't really know if there's a difference in sound unless I get hold of a set of PG Blues and give them a whirl. Unless......do you think there'll be that much of a difference if I just get a PG Blues neck pickup and use it with the bridge Mule I've already got? I'm sure it'll be out of phase but will the sound be all messed up?
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Unless......do you think there'll be that much of a difference if I just get a PG Blues neck pickup and use it with the bridge Mule I've already got? I'm sure it'll be out of phase but will the sound be all messed up?
The out of phase "effect" seems to be most pronounced if the pickups are pretty closely matched in output - so it would probably be marginally better with a Stormy Monday bridge than a Mule. But I reckon it would work. :)
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It also depends on the magnet in the Mule. PG Blues are AII, Mules can be AII, AIV or even AV. If your Mule is AII then it would have the best chance of working I think.
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whatever you do get good pots and caps....
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It's an AIV mule. Sounds like I might as well just go for a calibrated set for best results.
The pots are the stock Gibson one's and the caps are those bumblebee reissue things they're using.
Thanks everyone!
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Bit of additional info. I emailed Tim to ask whether the neck pickup needs to be attached with the polepieces directed towards the bridge. He replied:
"you can put them in whichever way you like.........when the PG LP was
in Gary Moores possession the neck pickup was swapped around several
times."
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The mid position is not the whole story...
They just sound great whatever you do with them...
See link in the PLAYERS SECTION...
PG Blues in fake SG Custom...
Great variation in tone/touch response...
Fun to play...