Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Brown tone on February 13, 2008, 03:39:49 PM
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I've ordered a kelly from jackson custom shop and i'd like some advice for the pickups. Since the guitar is already a bit on the costly side it does not really matter if the pickups are a bit more expensive.The guitar is neck-though korina(neck/body) and it has tone pros tune a matic bridge. The fingerboard is ebony.
The rythm tone(neck pickup) that i'm after is tight but chunky and i use mostly standard tuning. The lead tone(bridge pickup) should be thick but clear enough for fast licks and tremolo picking. I don't like overflowing bass response, but more highly emphasized lower mid range(less mud, more bricks :D). Tone is always hard to describe, since everyone hears it differently but this'll give the basic idea of what i'm after.
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I'm not looking for a jack-of-all-trades type of pickup arrangement, but something to make a wall of sound that'll be remembered even after a gig. Great rythm tone is far more important than the lead tone, even from the bridge position!
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My honest recommendation is wait until you get the guitar in-hand, see what you like/don't like about the tone through your rig, and then narrow your request to "I'm looking for something that will do X"
Hope you find that helpful.
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My honest recommendation is wait until you get the guitar in-hand, see what you like/don't like about the tone through your rig, and then narrow your request to "I'm looking for something that will do X"
Hope you find that helpful.
No, i actually don't. Custom ordered guitars are made according to customers specifications, and therefore i get to choose the pickups before the guitar is ready(though this won't be until late summer or fall).
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Any examples of bands, specific players tones will help people advise you here.
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megadeth angry again, though this is played on Eb. Very dry and raw sound, almost perfect.
metallica Master Of Puppets album, they used some duncans back in the days
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megadeth angry again, though this is played on Eb. Very dry and raw sound, almost perfect.
metallica Master Of Puppets album, they used some duncans back in the days
mustaine used a JB
and metallica used the emgs
i can get a great master of puppets tone with my miracle man bridge
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If i remember correctly mustaine used duncan distortion before jb and this was 'till the youthanasia album and angry was recorded for last action hero which was done in 1993. Metallica was converted into actives in 87' during the ...justice recording and tour. Hetfields 84 gibson explorer had pickups changed to emg 81/60 set and he got his eet fuk guitar.
But, who cares! I basically want pickups that can deliver thick tone that does not get "flabby", meaning that does not have too much bass soaking the overall sound. I prefer neck pickup for rythm tones.
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If i remember correctly mustaine used duncan distortion before jb and this was 'till the youthanasia album and angry was recorded for last action hero which was done in 1993. Metallica was converted into actives in 87' during the ...justice recording and tour. Hetfields 84 gibson explorer had pickups changed to emg 81/60 set and he got his eet fuk guitar.
But, who cares! I basically want pickups that can deliver thick tone that does not get "flabby", meaning that does not have too much bass soaking the overall sound. I prefer neck pickup for rythm tones.
nope it was emgs ive got the so what book.
Lists all the gear
they started using emg at the end of the trl tour
You may be correct about mustaine.
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one possibility would be emg 60 on the neck and duncan blackout bridge. Other would be invaders both ways, but i'd like to have additional ideas since i'm not in a hurry.
The reasons for "new" pickups:
Actives have a bit sterile sound, they are good but they could be better. The JB has too "loose" sound, but otherwise its perfect. Problem with jb is that it is unsuitable for neck and it does not go well with invader which is great neck pickup, just too bassy! These are the problems with pickups that i'm familiar with. The korina has a sound between mahogany and alder. The wood is lightweigh and as such has great harmonic balance and makes the guitar sing. I do not want to loose the distinctive feel of the korina by using actives(though amp pushed into 100%THD makes guitar wood completely indiffirent).
BTW the hetfields jackson, that broke during MOP tour, had jackson pickup on the neck and duncan on the bridge. The 84 gibson had it's pickups changed from gibsons to duncans and later(87') to emg's. His first esp custom "eet fuk" had dual 81's just as the black esp that came during the Black tour. Hammett had his custom jackson built with 81 set and he changed the gibson pickups, that were on his vee, to emgs during the lightning(no, the subject is still of no importance, but the fact that i *need* to be right is).
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No, i actually don't. Custom ordered guitars are made according to customers specifications, and therefore i get to choose the pickups before the guitar is ready(though this won't be until late summer or fall).
just a quick question.. you ordered this from Jackson .. or some other luthier?
another.. you play rythm on the neck pickup?
and i suggest a MM/VH II set
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My honest recommendation is wait until you get the guitar in-hand, see what you like/don't like about the tone through your rig, and then narrow your request to "I'm looking for something that will do X"
Hope you find that helpful.
No, i actually don't. Custom ordered guitars are made according to customers specifications, and therefore i get to choose the pickups before the guitar is ready(though this won't be until late summer or fall).
I'm pretty sure TO knows about custom guitars :wink:
You'll get a better idea what you want with a refference point of the pickups it comes with and the behaviour of the guitar with those pickups. Then you have a real starting point for 'more of this, less of that', rather than guessing by the specs.
That you want a tight rhythm tone from the neck seems odd. The bridge for the tightest sound, surely? Then neck and bridge for leads? (bridge for aggressive, trebly leads. Neck for smoother, richer leads)
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I'd go with Miracle Man bridge / Cold Sweat Neck or a matched pair of Miracle Men.
These will forever change your estimation of other pickups.
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just a quick question.. you ordered this from Jackson .. or some other luthier?
yes, from jackson custom shop. I wrote it on my first post,.
another.. you play rythm on the neck pickup?
Yes, when heavily distorted the neck pickup gives neat chug to the sound.
The reasons for "new" pickups:
Actives have a bit sterile sound, they are good but they could be better. The JB has too "loose" sound, but otherwise its perfect. Problem with jb is that it is unsuitable for neck and it does not go well with invader which is great neck pickup, just too bassy! These are the problems with pickups that i'm familiar with. The korina has a sound between mahogany and alder. The wood is lightweigh and as such has great harmonic balance and makes the guitar sing. I do not want to loose the distinctive feel of the korina by using actives.
I might be thinking a bit too complicately, but this is what i can give you.
The rig that i'm using a also custom built(by me!) so it's hard to give any real stepping stones, besides describing the tone with words.
I like the reduced bandwith of hotter pickups and the tightness of ceramic magnets.
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just a quick question.. you ordered this from Jackson .. or some other luthier?
yes, from jackson custom shop. I wrote it on my first post,.
another.. you play rythm on the neck pickup?
Yes, when heavily distorted the neck pickup gives neat chug to the sound.
The reasons for "new" pickups:
Actives have a bit sterile sound, they are good but they could be better. The JB has too "loose" sound, but otherwise its perfect. Problem with jb is that it is unsuitable for neck and it does not go well with invader which is great neck pickup, just too bassy! These are the problems with pickups that i'm familiar with. The korina has a sound between mahogany and alder. The wood is lightweigh and as such has great harmonic balance and makes the guitar sing. I do not want to loose the distinctive feel of the korina by using actives.
I might be thinking a bit too complicately, but this is what i can give you.
The rig that i'm using a also custom built(by me!) so it's hard to give any real stepping stones, besides describing the tone with words.
I like the reduced bandwith of hotter pickups and the tightness of ceramic magnets.
look mr. rude n00b...
chill out and have some respect.
This forum is loaded with very nice helpfull people and veteran players... "TwilightOdyssey" happens to be one of them and so far he has given you the best response.
But if you really need a quick reliable set of pickups that will do thrash metal very well, then I also recommend a "Miracle Men set or Cold Sweat Neck with Miracle Man bridge".
So just relax... be more specific in what tone you want. Some more bands and songs would help.
Also... people here don't mainly use the Neck pickup for riffs or rythm. Most of us use the bridge pickup for rythm and aggresive leads... and neck for smooth leads and cleans.
hope this helps you :wink:
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just a quick question.. you ordered this from Jackson .. or some other luthier?
yes, from jackson custom shop. I wrote it on my first post,.
oh, ok.. but just to clarify, you mean this fall.. or the fall of 2009.. possibly 2010.
and i concur with afghan dave.. a Miracle Man set.
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I'm sorry for my rudeness, I'll try to act better. Ignore everything that might be rude or degrading!
I've already paid the guitar and they estimated the delivery time is from 6 to 8 months. I should have it by september this year.
I mainly use neck pickup and at the neck pos emg 81 and 60 have the fast attack that i like, but sound a bit too sterile. I don't really care if the guitar "can't do" cleans as long as the distortion tone kicks ass.
Megadeths Angry again song has the greatest distortion sound that i've heard and that's basically what i'm after(. Megadeth does not have any other song that had the similar dry heavy sound, so i don't really know anything else.
Of all passive pickups that i've tried, invader is the closest to perfection. I'd settle for invader with a bit more articulate sound(=just a touch tighter bass). The "spike" on the lower midrange is just awe inspiring! I do not have my own experience from bk pickups, so i'm pretty much clueless how they sound.
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I'm sorry for my rudeness, I'll try to act better. Ignore everything that might be rude or degrading!
I've already paid the guitar and they estimated the delivery time is from 6 to 8 months. I should have it by september this year.
I mainly use neck pickup and at the neck pos emg 81 and 60 have the fast attack that i like, but sound a bit too sterile. I don't really care if the guitar "can't do" cleans as long as the distortion tone kicks ass.
Megadeths Angry again song has the greatest distortion sound that i've heard and that's basically what i'm after(. Megadeth does not have any other song that had the similar dry heavy sound, so i don't really know anything else.
Of all passive pickups that i've tried, invader is the closest to perfection. I'd settle for invader with a bit more articulate sound(=just a touch tighter bass). The "spike" on the lower midrange is just awe inspiring! I do not have my own experience from bk pickups, so i'm pretty much clueless how they sound.
are you sure that you use the neck pickup??? they generally get mushy and arent tight enough for rhythm especially the emg 60 ive had a lot of experience with that pickup
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are you sure that you use the neck pickup??? they generally get mushy and arent tight enough for rhythm especially the emg 60 ive had a lot of experience with that pickup
Painkiller neck.
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they generally get mushy and arent tight enough for rhythm especially the emg 60 ive had a lot of experience with that pickup
That depends wildly on the guitar! Gibsons have the neck pickup placed directly under the point where the vibrating string has its "knot" point. This point is like a massive phase cancellation and therfore there is greatly reduced harmonic content induced to the pickups windings.
Neck pickups with somewhat tight sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNCvSi3BMLU
EDIT: Hetfield uses almost exclusively the neck pickup and he has very tight sound!
2nd EDIT: After reading my previous posts i noticed that my grammar sucks at the moment. Try to bear with me!
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they generally get mushy and arent tight enough for rhythm especially the emg 60 ive had a lot of experience with that pickup
That depends wildly on the guitar! Gibsons have the neck pickup placed directly under the point where the vibrating string has its "knot" point. This point is like a massive phase cancellation and therfore there is greatly reduced harmonic content induced to the pickups windings.
Neck pickups with somewhat tight sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNCvSi3BMLU
EDIT: Hetfield uses almost exclusively the neck pickup and he has very tight sound!
2nd EDIT: After reading my previous posts i noticed that my grammar sucks at the moment. Try to bear with me!
Hetfield uses the bridge 81 for rhythm.
Closest pickup: c-pig
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Painkiller neck. :)
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And painkiller neck, yeah.
Pretty EMG 60 -esque.
Tightest neck sound I've heard, if you insist on using the neck for metal rhythm (you'll be in an extreme minority there!)
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Just to make sure, painkiller neck :D ?
Ok what about the bridge, would miracleman pair well with painkiller or would i be better off with painkiller set?
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Just to make sure, painkiller neck :D ?
Ok what about the bridge, would miracleman pair well with painkiller or would i be better off with painkiller set?
LOL
I would venture to say that a Painkiller set will do precisely what you want. It has a hell of a lot of chunk, very tight bass, and the exact lower midrange push you are looking for (esp in the 200-800Hz range).
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they generally get mushy and arent tight enough for rhythm especially the emg 60 ive had a lot of experience with that pickup
That depends wildly on the guitar! Gibsons have the neck pickup placed directly under the point where the vibrating string has its "knot" point. This point is like a massive phase cancellation and therfore there is greatly reduced harmonic content induced to the pickups windings.
i agree that neck pickups can sound tight enough for rhythm but your science is a little bit out. although its a common misconception that the neck pickup should be under a harmonic node (the 24th fret one) it doesnt actually make much sense in real terms
firstly, the harmonic node where the string is moving less would produce a reduced signal like you suggest.... but its a very narrow focal point of the string. humbuckers are wide and even single coils wide enough so that they will see enough of the string for the node to be a non issue as far as phase cancellation is concerned. In fact a pickup is always louderin the neck position than it would be in the bridge position because, overall, the string moves a lot more in this position
secondly, that node may be in just the right place on open strings if you have a pickup under the 24th fret location but as soon as you fret a note it moves. If you fret the first fret the equivelent harmonic node will be two octaves higher, or at the theortical 25th fret position etc..
now i will be the first to say that i prefer guitars with pickups under the 24th fret location, but its not because the node is there, its because its furthest away from the bridge pickup so gives greater tonal variation
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the harmonic node where the string is moving less would produce a reduced signal like you suggest
The guitar string vibrates with a single standing wave so that the biggest movement is in the middle(12th fret). The harmonics are like vibrations within string and the "phase cancellation" happens in the 24th postion to the odd numbers(basically to the third since above fifth every harmonic decay during the attack). Therefore the harmonics are less picked by the string because 1. they are much weaker when compared to the string vibration(main reason) and 2. the odd harmonics are cancelled.
My first post was oversimplified as is this and is actually a bit wrong, but serves the purpose.
(I'm still not trying to be rude!!!!!!!)
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Now i just need to make up my mind with either invader set or a painkiller set or a mix of them(I'll probably just toss a coin when it comes to deciding). Thanks for all of ya!
(... and i'm not trying to be rude)
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I would trust the guys' recommendations and go with a Painkiller set. And if you didn't buy a Bareknuckle set, then I would go with a mix of the two...
That way you haven't lost all hope, as you would if you went with an Invader set. :wink:
Oh and I don't think it matters whether or not you are trying to be rude... just whether you are or not. :wink:
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Sh1t... The coin toss method... you genius!
How the heck could we have forgotten that lightning rod of wisdom!
We're such silly billys we've been trying to guide you based on experience and knowledge and there you go and trump all that with a coin toss.
Hey don't be so modest... I think you've got the rude trick mastered hombre!
Please god they disqualify you from jury duty.. you muppet.
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sorry for the misunderstanding, but finland is the promised land of bad humor and worse food, atleast that's what the italians say! See raikkonen and you'll know what i mean by bad humor. We have the second most difficuld language in the world and it's f* cold here and sun is out for few months in a year, the looong days of night. C'mon i wasn't *that* idiot.
(not rude, right?)
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and this is how we speak english
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jNuKimIv7XI
(i agree, *rude*)
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the harmonic node where the string is moving less would produce a reduced signal like you suggest
The guitar string vibrates with a single standing wave so that the biggest movement is in the middle(12th fret). The harmonics are like vibrations within string and the "phase cancellation" happens in the 24th postion to the odd numbers(basically to the third since above fifth every harmonic decay during the attack). Therefore the harmonics are less picked by the string because 1. they are much weaker when compared to the string vibration(main reason) and 2. the odd harmonics are cancelled.
My first post was oversimplified as is this and is actually a bit wrong, but serves the purpose.
(I'm still not trying to be rude!!!!!!!)
your still missing the point that the harmonic nodes change position wherever you play on the fretboard... so even if your idea of having massive phase cancellation at the 24th fret is correct (and it is) you need to understand that only counts when playing an open note.. to get that same 'phase cancellation' as part of your sound you would need a pickup that was permanantly 2 octaves up from your fretted note... and you need a pickup with a focal point that only focuses on the string very close to that node.. i am sure if someone invents a really thin pickup that moves as you play we could get the 'phase cancellation' you talk about.. interesting idea but not practical
i aint going to claim to know everything about string vibration but i know enough to see when the traditional guitar shop mythology is flawed... the whole idea of having a pickup at the 24th fret because its a harmonic node is flawed
play a note at the 1st fret and that 24th fret harmonic node is now over the 25th position
play a note at the 2nd fret and the harmonic node is over the 26th position
play a note at the 3rd fret and the harmonic node is over the 27th position
etc.. etc.... pretty soon your big wide humbucker is no longer seeing that 24th fret harmonic node at all
anyway. the point is you want a neck humbucker you can riff with. I find the BKP's do work for this even though some pickups can be a bit muddy. I like my miracle man set for this
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If you insist on riffing with the neck pickup... then logic says that you need the Painkiller Neck.
why?
because it is the only Ceramic Neck humbucker of the high output category that BK offer. So in theory it would be very TIGHT and focused.
but your best bet ALWAYS is to talk with Tim.
Just tell him what kind of guitar it will be in (woods), that you want to use the neck pickup for your riffing and give him some band examples.
It would also help if you give him some details of the sound you like:
1) focused, tight, loose, versatil
2) trebly, midless, alot of high mids, low mids, low end
3) articulate, saturated, cleans up well, compressed, don't care about cleans
or you can also try the "sound clip" or "read alot of threads" methods.
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+1 for talk to tim.
Never gone wrong taking tims advice
HAVE gone wrong ignoring it and getting what I had in mind rather than the suggestion he gave based on the sound I wanted.
Lesson: Tim knows his pickups. Ask him and listen carefully.
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i took your advice and asked Tim. He recommended warpig or miracle man for the neck!
I've got suggestions for the painkiller (4 other people have suggested Tim did not) or miracle man(suggested by tim and one other guy) and the warpig(suggested only by tim)...
I tried to find clips, but none of them is made with neck pickups. I guess i *really* am representing a minority of players liking the über thick tones produced with neck pickups.
EDIT: Tim narrowed down the selection for only mm so it's probably my best bet.