Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Nadz1lla on March 07, 2008, 03:03:14 PM
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I need help guys! This is probably a question for Wez, Feline and any other builders here.
I have no idea which woods have which tonal qualities, as far as tonewoods and what makes a guitar sound the way it does etc I'm pretty green. I know the kind of sound I want and I know how I'm going to build the thing but the tonal theory is what I'm lacking. :?
I'd really like it to have a nice, tight and middy tone, with a fair amount of sustain...if that makes sense? Going through my music collection at the moment I have found almost the kind of thing I'm looking for. Dino's tone with Divine Heresy is really nice, it has that tight defined sound I'm after, with a fair chunk of mids in there. Also, at 5:55 in Glass Prison by Dream Theater, Petrucci has the kind of middyness I want, but it doesn't sound as defined and tight as I'd like it but that may be down to his rig. Another good example of the sound I'd like can be found on the album "Deviate" by Kill 2 This, and "As The Palaces Burn" by Lamb of God.
I realise a lot of this kind of sound is to do with the rig as a whole, but what I'm after is something that has a lot of mids naturally and a nice tight sound.
Can anyone advise as to what kind of woods I should be looking at, and combinations of body and top woods if poss? Also what kind of construction e.g thru-neck / bolt on etc.
Naturally I will be selecting either a Nailbomb, Warpig or Miracle Man for the pickups, or something similar. :twisted:
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First thing first - go and buy a copy of Make Your Own Electric Guitar by Melvin Hisc--k should tell you everything about building that you'll need.
Also, go and have a look over at www.projectguitar.com and search for wood info.
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Mids?? Wenge neck....
It's quite expensive but dont need to be finished, what is an amazing thing (the raw feel)
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Cheers Tone, I have that book, it's awesome! I'll have a gander at the site too.
Fernando, cheers, I'll look into it. The project is going to be over a long period of time so cost doesn't have to be majorly important at the moment, I can always save up for other parts whilst I am doing bits to the main body. I'll have a look at the Wenge for sure!
Thanks for the advice so far guys!
:D
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yeah get hisc--ks book. and check out some of the forums i mentioned in the other forums thread :wink:
warmoth have a rough guide to wood types but make sure you use it as a rough guide only. wood varies a lot
http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/options/options_bodywoods.cfm
wenge is a great neck wood but if you use it on your first guitar it will put you off for life - its a nasty splintery experience!!
Start with something easy like mahogany or maple for the neck and avoid figured pieces till you have more experience.
Basically the first guitar you make should be simple with simple woods ... more chance of success which makes it much less frustrating
i would start with a bolt-on neck as its easiest and failure on one doesnt mean complete failure on the whole guitar, although istill find neckthroughs easier than set-necks
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.. oh, it can get quite addictive so dont worry about making your ideal guitar first time around
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Yeah, build your first out of cheap wood, you can always buy the hardware that you want and put it on a better built later guitar.
I knackered up some very nice quilted maple on my first axe. Not only killed the wood, but also killed the wallet. Burnt the neck the other week too as it had some dodgy wood in :(
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Aye cheers guys!
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I know the kind of sound I want and I know how I'm going to build the thing but the tonal theory is what I'm lacking. :?
All you need to do is pick up a Theory I book for that one; i'd recommend "Elements of Music" by Joseph Straus :wink: :roll:
But more seriously. If you are looking for Dino's tone you are gonna most likely want Basswood as he exclusively uses Ibanez guitars, and i don't think he is into the S series either. I don't really know or care much about him these days, so that is really the extent of my knowledge in that area. As for the others you mentioned i don't really have a clue. The guy from Lamb of God most likely uses a Mahogany guitar as i think those guys use ESPs, but again i could care less about them so i am not the best person to ask about the individuals you mentioned. If you are really adamant about using the exact woods these players do i would recommend trolling around the internet, the band's websites, their guitar companies' websites etc. to find the necessary info.
I can give you advice on body woods for their tonal properties however. If you want rich warm tone with bite go straight for the Mahogany my friend. However, those individuals unworthy of Mahogany claim that it is too heavy. If this is the case for you, and you are entirely unworthy of such a godly wood, then go straight for the Swamp Ash. You will not get as rich and warm a tone as you would with the Mahogany, however, it comes as close as it gets and is quite a bit lighter. Koa is a nice warm tone wood, although VERY expensive. Korina is also quite balanced, and if you get Black Korina it looks damn cool! Don't know much about Paduk, but it is also supposed to be a really nice tone wood!
Necks i would also recommend a bolt on. I tend to think that the neck-thru is somewhat of a masterworker's craft and if you fvck it up, then you essentially wasted your money on perfectly good woods. You could either do a 1 piece maple or 1 piece mahogany, i would stay away from multiple piece necks on your first build as they necessitate meticulous exactitude. With a 1 piece at least you can work down on one piece instead of having to build up to one piece and then working down on it. Others more knowledgeable, correct me if i am wrong, but if you use maple you are sure to get a bit of a brighter tone than if you used mahogany for the neck just due to the actual wood density and close knit grain of the former.
Fretboards you have several options: Rosewood, Ebony, Maple, and some more exotics like Macassar Ebony (very similar in nature to "regular" ebony), Zircote, Purpleheart, Cocobolo (relative of rosewood), and quite a few others. I would stay with the first three for your first build however because when purchasing outside of that trinity things get rather expensive and, depending, harder to work with. Ebony is a bonafide PAIN IN THE ASS to work with. However, in the end it is worth it for fretboards because you could do just about anything to it, save shoot it with a projectile, and it will hold up pretty well; I.E. - great long life, low maintenance, superb feel. I cannot speak for maple as i don't own, nor have made, any guitars with maple. But rosewood is still pretty good, pretty low maintenance, but is A LOT easier to work with.
Tonal qualities of "the beginner's trinity":
Ebony: TIGHT grain, which means bright. However, if used in combonation with a nice balanced wood such as Mahogany or Swamp Ash the results should be pretty good, if not extremely pleasing in sonic properties.
Maple (Flame, Birdseye, Rock): TIGHT grain, again this means bright. Same aspects of combinations apply. You should be very conscious of the combinations you choose as they will greatly effect the tonal properties of the guitar.
Rosewood (and its relatives): Should be nice an warm but hard enough to stand up to a beating, though not like ebony can :wink:. If prepared right it will feel very pleasing to the touch and a pleasure to play. I have a rosewood fingerboard on one of my guitars and it plays like butter!
Purpleheart: Surprisingly balanced and yet VERY durable, good choice for an "out-there" exotic look.
I can't really speak for the other woods because i am not that experienced of a builder yet. I can say, however, stay the fvck away from burls on your first build. They look fantastic, but are hard as shite to work with.
Hope this helps a little bit. I am sure Wez and Johnathan will have more to say on the matter and more to add. :)
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Purpleheart is known for his deep bass tone...
The luthiers that I've talk, told me to use a more bright wood in the body and like MUST be Ebony fingerboard (the brightest one)
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I tend to think that the neck-thru is somewhat of a masterworker's craft and if you fvck it up, then you essentially wasted your money on perfectly good woods.
through necks are actually pretty easy to build but bolt on necks are definately easier. even set necks can be made much easier if you do a full width tenon like PRS rather than the traditional gibson mortice and tenon... the full width tenon makes i very much like making a bolt on neck but you glue the neck in... easy peasy
the wood thing gets very personal and could be debated to the end of the earth... so just build something with commonly used woods and you cant go far wrong... learning how to shape the tone more accurately comes with experience and can always be improved.. it can be as much down to individual pieces of wood doing certain functions as it is species
if you go to www.simnettguitars.co.uk/forum then sign up and keep an eye on the for sale section you will see that simo who runs the place regularly has body blanks for sale at good prices. I have had korina (idigbo), walnut and mahogany from him planed to thickness for very reasonable prices.
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Hmmm, I've had a little think about this and I've come to a semi-decision, hehe. I've had a savings account running for about a year and I have a decent amount in there saved for special occasions, I might use it wisely and go on a Bailey course. There is a course nearer to me, but the tuition fee alone is £3800 so it's a no-go. Considering the courses around, Bailey seems superior value for money! I'll order their DVD first and have a gander, but I think I've pretty much sold myself on the idea already. I can't think of a better way to do my first axe than having a seasoned pro on hand every step of the way.
Has anyone here been on this course? http://www.baileyguitars.co.uk/oldsite/index.htm
Seen a few people on the forum Wez pointed out that seem happy with the course. But it's a lot of money for me, I just want to be sure, heh.
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That program looks like a bunch of bullocks to me. 5 days minimum? You have GOT to be kidding me! Don't be fooled, as a beginner you are lucky to make a custom quality instrument within 3 months. Guitarmaking implies a learning curve, there are no shortcuts, tricks or turns that will cut a 2-3 month procedure down to 5 days. If you are a master craftsman this might be a different story, something AT THE LEAST like 80-100 hrs minimum, MAYBE, to build - as i have talked to some and watched some do it in this time. If you want perfect, flawless, build-quality however, you cannot get around the 2-3 month mark even if you are putting in 8 hours a day - especially as a beginner. I don't know how the builders operate on this forum, but honestly, if it is not taking them a good month to two (for the more experienced builders on the forum), then i would question their construction methods.
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Hmmm, I'll think about that more carefully then, lol. Just seeing some of the Guitars they've churned out though look good. I have to wonder how they did it now that you mention the normal build time, as it looks like they literally do it from scratch. The other option is go to my local axery and ask them if they can build my guitar and just let me watch, or lend a hand while they make it or something. Books are good but there's nothing better than either watching a pro do it or having one guide you.
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If you're looking for a wood that's reasonably priced, readily available, easy to work, looks great and sounds pretty good too I'd recommend Meranti.
It's widely used as a mahogany substitute for window frames and doors so is easily available. It's S.G. varies between balsa wood and teak so you have to be a bit selective and pick out the darker, denser bits when you buy it.
It makes really nice necks and bodies has good mechanical strength and looks very similar to mahogany except that the grain is more uniform and straighter than a lot of the mahogany that's around at present.
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I would say the bailey course looks pretty good, you are right that you wont get fantastic attention to detail in 5 days but it doesnt mean you wont get a nice guitar you can be proud of. Of course there is a learning curve to building guitars but this is really aimed at people who havnt got much clue where to start.. and you wont come out of it knowing how to build guitars, far to intense for that, but you will have a better idea of a lot of the processes involved. I think the biggest compromise they make on the course is with the finishing, you basically get it sealed with a few fast drying coats and work on it again the next day.
my guitars at the moment are taking 4-6 months but thats because i factor in a lot of resting time for the wood to aclimatise between stages and i also have another full time job to do as well.. and finishing is a bit of a bottle neck at the moment :oops:
.. but i have done complete instruments in a week before.. sometimes its fun to just bash one out quickly
these were all done in a week
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/wv11.jpg)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/wv16.jpg)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/wv20.jpg)
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Building a custom guitar can take anything from 20 hours to a 100 hours; it depends on how many steps there are in the process. I use Titebond adhesives like most guitar builders do so you've got a 24 hour curing period between gluing up any composite parts of the guitar before you can move onto the next step for instance. Then you really have to do things in the right sequence to save you problems further down the line; this is really important!!
I have process sheets for manufacturing various different parts of the guitar that I've developed over the years you're welcome to a copy of any relevant ones if it will help you.
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As a beginner i would say something like 350-500 hours is reasonable. I dunno how long you have been building guitars Bob, but as long as you are a builder i am sure you know that there are a certain number of things that require precision well beyond the human eye; the eye will be trained with time as mine was, but as a beginner, unless experienced in woodworking, the eye will be the weakest point of the construction process.
There was a two week planning period for my first build: finding woods, figuring out what tone i wanted and what i wanted the general look to be, drawing up plans (there was some indecision in this process so it took a little longer), etc. Getting everything exact takes more time than actually just paring down the wood. 95% of guitarmaking is getting everything to look and work right, but 100% of the remaining 5% is dedicated to attaining exactitude so the working parts previously accomplished can not only work, but function PERFECTLY - Guitarmaking (should) = perfection (or as near as you can get it).
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Again, thanks to all for the info so far!
I thought that the compromise they would make would be the finishing, that's something that if I was really bothered about I would just make the basic axe and finish it at home where I have all the time in the world to let coats dry in their own time and get it cured properly.
Bob, that would be amazing! But I wouldn't want you to go to any trouble, I'd only ask for the copies if they are uploaded already somewhere or they're easy to send in an email. My main areas that I can forsee difficulties with are things like neck angles, fretboard / neck radius and bonding when it comes to things like making a thru-neck, as I understand that incorporates a lot of sandwiching pieces of together etc.
I'll be buying some rubbish mdf or cheap timber this week with a "Tesco Value" quality router from B&Q just to make a mock-up of the shape and start playing around with carving techniques / where I'm going to put the electrics etc, but the project as a whole (unless I actually go for the Bailey option) is going to take a long time of meticulous planning and mock-ups, hehe.
I was going to take apart one of my cheapy Guitars and measure distances etc, things like distance between the frets as they go up the neck and where the neck ends in relation to the bridge so I don't end up with something that is a note away from an octave when you get to the 12th fret, lol. It's the kind of mistake I am likely to make if any. :lol: :roll: :oops:
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I was going to take apart one of my cheapy Guitars and measure distances etc, things like distance between the frets as they go up the neck and where the neck ends in relation to the bridge so I don't end up with something that is a note away from an octave when you get to the 12th fret, lol. It's the kind of mistake I am likely to make if any. :lol: :roll: :oops:
"Top Tip"; unless you've got a jig for cutting the fret slots you should really buy a pre-slotted fingerboard from somewhere like David Dyke's Luthiers supplies or Touchstone Tonewoods, Craft Supplies etc. A digital caliper for measuring things like the nut width, heel width, neck pocket depth/width etc is an essential tool in my view. There really reasonably priced these days if you shop around.
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Digital calipers, got it, will shop around for some. :D
Also nothing like a good couple of hours of checking and double checking to put one's mind at ease, heh.
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digital calipers are damn expensive but quite worth it as an investment in the long run
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Wow! Well they certainly vary in price, lol! I found a site selling all different makes that range from £10.00 to £725.00 heh. I'm guessing the £10 ones are probably rubbish. :?
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i made 4.
the first 2 were great, but the last 2 were shite. i just buy them now!
much less stress!
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Just an update, the build is going pretty well!
I bought a piece of mahogany and have been carving into that (as can be seen in another thread here, heh), and my Mockingbird is donating it's neck. But I truly have the bug now! I am already planning 3 more builds! 2 of those are from some mates at work who just want a basic guitar and bass to start learning on and said it would mean more to them if their first axe was made by a friend. Managed to mock up a pretty cheap list of parts which would cost them about the same as a basic "learning" guitar anyway, except instead of 12 ply they'd be getting a solid mahogany body shaped to their taste. 8)
But the next build I want to do for myself is definitely going to be neck thru. Taking dvice from here I am going to source the materials as cheap as possible for this first attempt, although after progress with my current project I am getting more confident by the day that I can do a fairly good job. Going to invest in some proper luthier tools too at some point as although my Dad's woodworking equipment is good, there are just some things that require a more specialist approach.
I'd just like to say thanks to all who have posted in this thread, your contributions have not only been informative but also have given me a motivational boost!
Cheers guys!!! :D
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and finishing is a bit of a bottle neck at the moment :oops:
Really? :)
sometimes its fun to just bash one out quickly
Truer words have never been spoken.
:D
Roo
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that was march Roo... getting stuff ready for finishing (constant hand sanding untill i buy better sanders) seems to slow me down at the moment but the actual finishing isnt too bad since i am shipping out lacquer finishers to a couple of different people.
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Only just seen this thread ....
Has anyone here been on this course? http://www.baileyguitars.co.uk/oldsite/index.htm
Seen a few people on the forum Wez pointed out that seem happy with the course. But it's a lot of money for me, I just want to be sure, heh.
I may have been one of those "few people", but just in case I wasn't, I'll tell you here ... that the course is totally, absolutely, and without-any-reservation amazing.
I've done it twice - the first time taught me that I actually could make a guitar, then I went back a second time to learn a bit more about how to make one. I've just booked another slot as an 18th birthday present for someone. I wish I'd done it when I was 18!
Even when you've completed your current build, and your 100th own build, there will still be tips and tricks that Mark can teach you. He'll be the first to say that he's still learning about guitar-building after many many years of practice. So, if you get the chance, do the course. In the meantime, have fun, and get some pics posted here!
ps - see the link in my sig to pics from the Bailey course, and to what I've managed to do since then ...
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Ah yes, I do believe I have seen your work before, lovely guitars! You've used some really nice timbers there. :D