Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => The Dressing Room => Topic started by: Elliot on March 15, 2008, 08:26:12 PM
-
He's BT - Tut tut - the bitchy world of pickup manufacturers (In my experience of cross examining experts in court, when people are this rude, something must be amiss)
http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.html?db=&topic_number=661512&offset=27
-
Yes indeed " the lady doth protest too much" .. :wink:
The great thing that lifts Tim's pickups beyond any speculative war of words, is that other old saying " hearing is believing ".
I have heard , and I believe in BKP all the way ! :D
-
He comes across very bitter/jealous. Whether he's right or wrong (I have no idea on whose right about that whole copper issue), I'm sure Tim wouldn't react like that in the same situation.
I remember one occasion when I was a right c--k to Tim (sorry! :oops: ) and he was still polite and courteous.
Anyway, what I find even more silly about that forum is this issue:
Some guy: "I sent [an e-mail] to Tim Mills at Bareknuckle to see if he would be able to custom wind me something along similar lines ,:"
Then the same guy says:
"Thing is when you look at Bareknuckle's range of pups they're pretty much all overwound...so of course he's going to try and talk me out of an underwound pickup."
But you were asking him to CUSTOM WIND YOU A PICKUP, so what on earth does Bare Knuckle's range have to do with anything?!?!?! Why would Tim go out of his way to get you to buy one of his existing range rather than wind you a custom pickup?! :?
I mean fair enough if Tim's wrong, but I really don't think he would actively deceive someone like that. :?
-
Even if he didn't agree with Tim he didn't have to sound like a stuck up faggot who's shiteting arrogance.
-
Even if he didn't agree with Tim he didn't have to sound like a stuck up faggot who's shiteting arrogance.
Very eloquent Jonny. :wink: :lol:
-
Even if he didn't agree with Tim he didn't have to sound like a stuck up faggot who's shiteting arrogance.
Very eloquent Jonny. :wink: :lol:
When someone, who thinks he's better, insults another person's hard work. I find that $%&#ing disgusting.
-
Hmmm, well BT was certainly rude, which he really didn't need to be. As for the technical information... I really don't know, I don't wind pickups, and both of these guys (BT & Tim) are experts. I value Tim's advice and knowledge but he could be wrong on this issue, that said I know he's spent a long time on R&D :)
The overwound comment is a little weird, I guess BK's possibly do seem 'hot' compared to others on the market, but my understanding is that each has been designed to generate a particular sound, if I gives that sound then it can't be under or over wound.
Overall I don't care anyway, if Tim makes pickups that sound this good based on what the pixies told him, crystal healing, and alien tech, thats fine by me, keep it up! :twisted:
-
this bit made me laugh
I think it`s time that Tim had his ears checked and brushed up on his knowledge about the behavior and technical aspects of guitar pickups.
i am going to go outon a limb and say even if tim wasnt exactly sure what the pickups on blackie were actually like.... i know he could wind me something to get that sound
i feel that tims ability to capture a sound almost transends the details about what magnet a pickup actualy has and how many windings, and whether or not the cavity is shielded
some people do it purely by the numbers and specs of those traditioal pickups and i know sticking close to tradition is certainly a large part of the BKP ethos.. but at the heart of it is a man who understands how to control some of the MOJO of the whole situation. those little details the rest of us can nver quite understand fully
as somebody that spent a long time making his own pickups i really appreciate the talent at the heart of BKP that lets us all have so much control over our sound. i could only ever approximate the sounds i was after but BKP's ge me a lot closer
anyway, i am drunk and probably gushing too much
its true that a certain percentage of the popular BKP's are overwound but to say
Thing is when you look at Bareknuckle's range of pups they're pretty much all overwound...so of course he's going to try and talk me out of an underwound pickup.
ignores the quality and variety present in the whiole range - which i just see as the starting point for what BKP can offer
i am not someone who naturally goes for overwound pickups and i have had underwound and overwound stuff from them and never found a pickup to be lacking in the job its meant to do. they all make my guitars sound awesome and thats the point
-
The overwound comment is not correct in any event - my Apaches are 5.7k and my Mother's Milks are 5.85k in the neck and middle. These are correct 50s and 60s values. What Tim does is make the bridge about .7k hotter (i.e. 6.4, 6.6k respectively).
Now to Fender pickup purists this may be wrong - the winders wound their pickups without concern for position - but to players not hung up on these things the point is clear - on a strat the bridge is the problem area, too much ice pick (read the same FDP forum and many other discussions) - The overwind on the bridge makes tonal sense as it cuts the icepick problems and equalises things out. -
As to Bill Turner saying no one complained about 70s Fender pickups being weak - he must be suffering amnesia - why was his own powerful EMGs so successful? - because players hated those trashy 70s Fender winds at the time - they still do, its just fashion now dictates that 70s strats are vintage guitars.
-
I agree with Elliott, my Apaches are hardly overwound. As for no-one complaining about Strat pickups-well no but then again there was no after market alternative so you would have had little choice but to lump them and get on with it. Significantly, my Apaches are in a 1970's Strat and they replaced EMGs which in turn replaced the originals which were quite shrill. The EMGs were OK but I hated having to have a battery on board and they just didn't do it for me-but that is just it, they were OK whereas the BKPs are superb.
-
Not knowing great technical details on how to wind pickups, but it's a bit unfair to call out Tim on a forum that (as far as we know) doesn't frequent & basically say that he doesn't know what he talking about. At least have the decency to email Tim direct & discuss the matter :evil:
-
I was just wondering: who would want Clapton's tone anyways? The guy is in my opinion sooo overrated. He had his good days, but calling him god while there are a certain Mr. Hendrix, Mr. Page or Mr. Beck around ... well let's say he might have been god to some, but surely not in monotheism.
And then well, the guy can have his opinion, and that's what the whole thing about internet forums is about anyways, we're talking about him here as well, right?
Working at EMG I'd say doesn't qualify for great knowledge about pickups, and as long as we know that Tim makes the best pickups, what do we care?
8)
-
I have to say that over the years i've mellowed towards Clapton - I hated his tone and sound at first but now can see why people get so excited about his playing. Maybe I'm just getting old, but my holy trinity is fast ossifying around Claption, Hendrix and Peter Green - and to think I started out listening to the fast era Gary Moore and Yngwie.
-
I could understand someone from SD maybe complaining, as its a simialr market, but actives and passives are completely different, and what passives EMG do produce aren't particularly great. Haven't heard anyone from SD complaining though.
So why doesn't he make some good pickups then(especially such a vast range as Tim does)!? jealousy?
-
I remember one occasion when I was a right c--k to Tim (sorry! :oops: ) and he was still polite and courteous.
:lol: Same here. Well, not being rude, but just for asking so many bloody questions, I can only imagine how annoying that must get :P He's always replied with useful answers though :) Also, last week I emailed him asking about the screw sizes BKP use so I could order some new ones from WD or something and he just asked how many I needed and sent them for free, great service! I'm now debating whether or not I should ask him how much different a VHII will sound to a Rebel Yell in my Les Paul :lol:
-
I was just wondering: who would want Clapton's tone anyways? The guy is in my opinion sooo overrated.
Holy shiteballs, I think I love you.
-
If Tim is guilty of anything, it may be poor choice of words in trying to explain something to someone who clearly knows little about pickups and how they sound, and not realizing that his private correspondence would be posted on a public forum. My experience with Tim, is that he is not only a very skilled musician with extraordinary ears and a respected member of the British guitar tech community, but a gentleman. It's always exciting when a "celebrity guitar" becomes open to public scrutiny, but to assume that these instruments have remained completely unaltered through years of constant gigging is naive to the extent that I wonder whether some folks watch "the Dukes of Hazard" and think there's only one Genreral Lee that made it through all those stunts. Anyway, Tims sound research is secone to none, and I would rather believe him. The proof's in the sound of his pickups.
-
Tim doesn't know what he's talking about?
So then how comes Bareknuckle Pickups has become so popular so quickly and the people that do have them, swear by them. Obviously Tim and the guys DO know what they're talking about.
Every BKP I've had the pleasure of hearing and playing with has sounded fantastic.
-
To put this into perspective-a long standing customer who has enjoyed buying/owning/playing many BKPs and has a lot of correspondence with me dropped me an email simply asking if I would underwind a set of Slow Hand coils. I replied that it wasn't a good idea as the set was specifically voiced to that spec(dropping the wind wouldn't sound good -not unsurprisingly I have tried it in the past as part of how I reached the final voicing).He then followed up with an email stating a former employee of Fenders findings, quoting 7200 turns of single build enamel for a typical 70s spec Strat coil and then wrapping the coils in copper tape as the correct spec for Clapton. I happen to have a lot of experience of '70s Fender coils, we see plenty sent in for repair/rewinding too, and know their tone very well. 7200 turns is quite a bit lower than typical 70s coils which mostly were around the 7500 mark(from @ '67 onwards). These coils are always bright so underwound to 7200 would make them very bright indeed.I don't think I would be over generalizing by saying the majority of Strat players like '70s coils the least.
Wrapping Strat coils in copper tape was often done as a last ditch attempt to make them sound better(also offer a degree of screening). However enclosing a coil in copper tape and then attaching it to ground weakens the coils output and removes a lot of high end-in this instance making an already low output coil even more so and with a loss of highs too.
Why would I want to make a set of coils like that? My experience tells me full well that they won't sound very nice let alone getting anywhere near Clapton's tone.
As for all BKPS being overwound-well again, as you all know that's simply not the case -Apache's, Sultans, Mother's Milk-overwound!!...........I don't think so.Other than addressing the wind of the bridge, all of these sets are vintage correct.
I get several hundred emails every day asking for advice on tone and pickup selection.I do my utmost not only to reply but to offer up the best advice I can based on what I know from experience and more importantly using my ears as a player. You all own and play our pickups and are well aware of the time and effort we put into getting things right-.If I was so far off the mark would so many players buy BKPs and keep returning for more?I really don't think so.
Anyway, thank you all for your support and thank goodness our forum isn't run so badly as that one allowing such slanderous and unprofessional remarks to go unchecked.
-
Thanks for the clarification Tim
Is it possible, though, that both Tim and Bill are both right?
i.e. that clapton was using 70s strat coils, but with something additional or some configuration of his setup that tamed the high end?
So, clearly, the trebly tone of the 70s wind wouldnt get you straight to the clapton sound in a normal setup, but maybe he used them through an unconventional setup? Sort of blackmoore-esque, who I believe used a somethingorother (technical term, that!) to kill a lot of treble on his strat.
Plus,
Kudos to Tim for still holding back, just stating the facts and not mud-slinging in response to Bills attack.
-
Wooo go Tim! haha
-
Kudos to Tim for still holding back, just stating the facts and not mud-slinging in response to Bills attack.
The restraint shown was very impressive indeed.
Personally, I would trust Tim to get the facts right in this matter.
Not that I'm anti EMG, or anything. Just saying .....
-
If Tim is guilty of anything, it may be poor choice of words in trying to explain something to someone who clearly knows little about pickups and how they sound, and not realizing that his private correspondence would be posted on a public forum. My experience with Tim, is that he is not only a very skilled musician with extraordinary ears and a respected member of the British guitar tech community, but a gentleman. It's always exciting when a "celebrity guitar" becomes open to public scrutiny, but to assume that these instruments have remained completely unaltered through years of constant gigging is naive to the extent that I wonder whether some folks watch "the Dukes of Hazard" and think there's only one Genreral Lee that made it through all those stunts. Anyway, Tims sound research is secone to none, and I would rather believe him. The proof's in the sound of his pickups.
There was only one General Lee, they welded the doors shut and everything! It was all down to the good driving Beu and Luke that kept it intact.
-
and Daisy Duke gave it a nice wax after every outing :evil:
-
I have no clue about the true story of Blackie's pickups.
But isn't Bill Turner the guy who designed Fender's Vintage Noiseless pickups? I've read at least as many bad reviews of those as good ones....
-
Even if he didn't agree with Tim he didn't have to sound like a stuck up faggot who's shiteting arrogance.
Precisely, well said.
-
I have no clue about the true story of Blackie's pickups.
But isn't Bill Turner the guy who designed Fender's Vintage Noiseless pickups? I've read at least as many bad reviews of those as good ones....
Vs Damn near straight 10s on HC, and every 'pro' review of BKs is glowing 8)
What I hear means far more to me than that, though. I see great reviews of duncans all the time: doesnt make me actually like them.
-
That really p*sses me off - Tim goes out of his way to try and advise someone, who then posts part of the reply to that personal email on a forum! BT then shows himself to be the most unprofessional tw*t I've heard of in a long time.
The best bit for me is when our chief protaganist then states he's undecided about getting an active pickup WTF?!
-
If you mostly dwell on this forum. then there's more ignorance and prejudice out there than you can imagine.
I was searching for some comparisons of EMG 81s to warpigs and I found a thread on harmony central where a guy was asking for advice on whether he should get EMGs or the pigs for metal.
Half of the replies recommend EMGs simply because they were "AWESOME!!~~11`one~~eleven" but they never even played or heard a warpig.
I was pretty shocked.
Maybe this is the reason BKP is not as widespread as it should be?
-
If you mostly dwell on this forum. then there's more ignorance and prejudice out there than you can't imagine.
Damn right.
This forum is blissfully free from Internet "trolls" - by and large everyone expresses their opinions with a fair degree of humour and a genuine interest in learning.
It's an entirely other world "out there"...
-
Very unprofessional of BT. I never heard other respected pickup makers talking about their competition that way.
-
if you read the whole thread, he does seem to have a very superior " i know best " kind of attitude. i'm sure he has plenty of knowledge, but his attitude is the problem. to so rudely dismiss what others say, in fact seemingly what everyone else says, is not a terribly attractive quality.
-
Wow, that shite spouting w**ker needs a slap.
At the end of the day it's up to people if they want to listen to the information Tim gives out (For free). I trust his recommendations because he is obviously very knowledgeable and experienced.
Plus, Tims service is incredible, My uber sinner arrived this morning and I only ordered it mid last week. :o
-
i was expecting something else to be written from bill on that forum than what i actually read, i don't think its all that bad.
regarding comments about the inductance, he maybe right.. i know my way around electronics. though what is certain is adding copper tape will have some sort of affect on the inductance and definately the sound of the pickup. if tim reckons its makes the sound worse, i believe him.
the last paragraph bill wrote is just rudeness really... maybe he is a bit sour, who knows, its certinally unprofessional. saying something negative in public never usually comes off without you looking silly. as an experienced engineer i'm surprised he tried it.
no one else is really copying the aspects of Tim's business model which work well, just parts of it. i'm surprised no one else has 'got it' yet, it seems obvious to us.
-
the last paragraph bill wrote is just rudeness really... maybe he is a bit sour.
D'ya think that BKs growing popularity and reputation as if not the then one of the best pickup brands in the world might have something to do with it 8)
-
the last paragraph bill wrote is just rudeness really... maybe he is a bit sour.
D'ya think that BKs growing popularity and reputation as if not the then one of the best pickup brands in the world might have something to do with it 8)
who knows ;) well... EMG is doing very well for itself too to be honest.
i'm nervous of saying someone is sour if i'm not sure. who knows, there could be another reason for his attitude.
-
the last paragraph bill wrote is just rudeness really... maybe he is a bit sour.
D'ya think that BKs growing popularity and reputation as if not the then one of the best pickup brands in the world might have something to do with it 8)
who knows ;) well... EMG is doing very well for itself too to be honest.
i'm nervous of saying someone is sour if i'm not sure. who knows, there could be another reason for his attitude.
It sounds quite a bit like standard daisy-cutting to me. BK are very well respected, and some people take any chance they get to have a go at the guys at the top.
Edit: by daisy cutting, I dont mean the weapon, I mean how the tallest daisies are the first to fall victim to teh lawnmower.
-
i get your point MDV :)
on the other hand we could see it in this context...
isn't bill the head of fender's pickup R&D? hes never going to say publically any fender pickup is bad, especially not on a fender board.
-
i get your point MDV :)
on the other hand we could see it in this context...
isn't bill the head of fender's pickup R&D? hes never going to say publically any fender pickup is bad, especially not on a fender board.
Good point!
-
I don't think he works for Fender anymore - if you look at that post he's quite critical of Fender. To be fair to him he's done a good deal of stuff: the EMG, the vintage noiseless, the LSR nut. Its just you don't expect so much vitriol for a guy in his 50s in response to a half reported email. What worries me more is that people on that forum seem to thank him for his rudeness.
-
If he's not getting any he should just get a brass! :lol:
-
Gathering bits of incomplete information from different sources and coming to a conclusion base on that is not going to give an accurate answer...ever. I see more of a corporate mentality that dulls the mind as I have said it before. Not professional at all....