Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: GuiTony on April 20, 2008, 02:53:18 PM

Title: Mr New Here
Post by: GuiTony on April 20, 2008, 02:53:18 PM
As the thread title says, I 'm a complete noob here, though I did follow Wez's "what shall I build" thread last year.  

So, firstly, hello all.

I heard a set of BKPs on a recent guitar-building course, and they were just absolutely amazing, so I'd count myself as a BKP fan.  Hopefully, I'll get to learn and understand a bit more by joining and participating here ... about the pickups themselves, and guitars generally.

I've recently been bitten by the "build-it-yourself" bug.  To date, I've built 3 guitars.  2 of those were on a course (see above) run by Mark Bailey.  The 3rd, I'll share with you later (if you're not bored already).  The 2nd is below ...

(http://www.deliveryconsulting.com/BYOG/finished4.jpg)
(http://www.deliveryconsulting.com/BYOG/finished5.jpg)
(http://www.deliveryconsulting.com/BYOG/finished3.jpg)
(http://www.deliveryconsulting.com/BYOG/finished6.jpg)

So, again, "hi all"  :)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: WezV on April 20, 2008, 03:24:42 PM
welcome :D

i always think that guitar looks absolutely superb!!!

show them the tele
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: Crazy_Joe on April 20, 2008, 03:37:23 PM
That guitar looks awesome, though i'm not really a fan of the pickup config, would be better with H-H or H-S-S imo. But still, the woods and craftsmanship look spectacular!
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: noodleplugerine on April 20, 2008, 03:40:06 PM
Looks great!
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: donovan.x on April 20, 2008, 03:40:44 PM
Welcome. Have you got any details of this guitar building course?
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: 38thBeatle on April 20, 2008, 03:43:52 PM
Welcome from me too-nice plank!
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: FernandoDuarte on April 20, 2008, 03:46:14 PM
Wellcome!!!!

Nice guitar! Looks very well build!
There is more? 8)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: HTH AMPS on April 20, 2008, 03:46:21 PM
looks great quality work, but I'm not a fan of that pickup config either - would've went with twin P90s myself.

you should route it again for three P90s (hell yeah!)

 :twisted:
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: MrBump on April 20, 2008, 03:50:08 PM
Yep, very nice looking guitar.

Ditto for info on the course...

Mark.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: sambo on April 20, 2008, 03:57:46 PM
Lovely looking guitar! Nice one. :D

Although I'd have to agree about the pickup config. But horses for courses!


The Bailey course would be this one, right?

http://www.baileyguitars.co.uk/BuildYourOwn.aspx
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: Doctor X on April 20, 2008, 04:28:02 PM
I like that pickup configuration.  If it's good enough for Richard Thompson then it's good enough for me :)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: MrBump on April 20, 2008, 05:28:35 PM
Just looked at the Bailey site...  Take a look at this:

http://www.baileyguitars.co.uk/CustomGallery.aspx?CustomID=17&CustomType=Electric&CustomName=David's%20guitar

Is that over the top?  I think I like it, but I may need convincing...

Mark.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: GuiTony on April 20, 2008, 06:04:27 PM
All - thanks for the welcome and the comments.

The pickup config is a little sneaky, in that it's a P90 plus 2 single coil sized HBs, both of which are coil tapped via the tone pot, with a standard 5-way selector switch.

So I've got "a range" of sounds from the guitar - SC, SC+SC, SC+P90, HB, HB+HB, HB+P90.  I went for flexibility, and I already have a 3 x P90 config on another guitar.

The course is indeed this one:  http://www.baileyguitars.co.uk/BuildYourOwn.aspx

I blogged the build at http://tonysguitars.blogspot.com, more or less in real time over the 5 days.  Take a quick look at the blog and you'll see what I think of Mark and his course  :wink:   Before I did the course the first time (last year), I couldn't saw a piece of wood in half in a straight line.  Seriously.  I was the original DiY numptie.

Wez requested a pic of "the Tele" ... so:
(http://www.deliveryconsulting.com/BYOG/Self22.jpg).

This one was built to a £100 budget for a challenge elsewhere - it actually cost me £76.88 all in.  That's a one piece Cherry body.  Finished that one this morning, started on the next one (Thinline Tele-alike) this afternoon.  If I can find the ££s, then a set of BKP P90s might just find their way into this next build.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: sambo on April 20, 2008, 06:27:01 PM
LOVE the tele!


£76.88!?

 :o  :o  Was that built using knowledge/techniques from the course, or something different entirely?
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: donovan.x on April 20, 2008, 06:36:40 PM
Mr Bump ^
I take no convincing, that is an awesome guitar!
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: opprobrium_9 on April 20, 2008, 07:06:54 PM
I still would rather promote the Totnes School of Guitarmaking course.  I still think this Bailey gig is a bit gimmicky, it all seems very suspicious to me.  Electrics in 5 days?  I don't think so.  Archtops in 20 days?  Certainly not! :shock:  The Totnes school is the real deal man.

what is the wood you used on the top of the first guitar?
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: GuiTony on April 20, 2008, 07:45:29 PM
Quote from: sambo

 :o  :o  Was that built using knowledge/techniques from the course, or something different entirely?

75% was based on what I learned on the course, 25% was made up as I went along ... a bit of trial & error, a bit of reading "books", and a bit of help from other guitar-making forums (incl people like Wez).


Quote from: opprobrium_9
I still would rather promote the Totnes School of Guitarmaking course.  I still think this Bailey gig is a bit gimmicky, it all seems very suspicious to me.  Electrics in 5 days?  I don't think so.  Archtops in 20 days?  Certainly not! :shock:  The Totnes school is the real deal man.

what is the wood you used on the top of the first guitar?

The wood is Amazique.  It's absolutely beautiful - it looks pretty good in the photos but I'm sure a better photographer would get better angles, lighting etc to show the wood off properly.

Re the course.  The blog and the photo gallery show that we really do start with planks of wood on day 1, and leave with finished guitars on day 5.  No magic is involved, just hard work, long (10-12 hour) days and a lot of Mark's attention and guidance - though this could be the magic ingredient!  Mark himself can make a guitar in a day - and does so at some of the guitar shows.

But ... you certainly don't learn all the tricks, tips and techniques that I imagine the Totnes course covers.  You don't cover all of the "whys" and technical design details.  Nor do you spend hours every day in the student cafe, or hours every evening in the local pub  :wink:.  Seriously though, if I'd had 3 months and £x thousands, then I'd have loved to do the Totnes course, but that's just not a practical option - whereas taking 5 days to do Mark's course was very practical.  

For me, the first course taught me that I really could build a guitar (I didn't believe that I'd be capable), and gave me some basic woodworking skills and confidence.  On the second course, I asked enough questions, and learned enough of the techniques and design principles, to be able to repeat the exercise in my own workshop ... as the photos show.  And now I've started build #2  :D
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: sambo on April 20, 2008, 07:52:38 PM
GuiTony- Cool! One more Q if you don't mind kind sir- how much of the equipment/tools e.t.c. did you have already, how much did you need to buy in? In other words, was the total cost £70, or was that the guitar materials specifically?





Quote from: opprobrium_9
 Electrics in 5 days?  I don't think so.  Archtops in 20 days?  Certainly not! :shock:  



Surely this here chap is evidence that verifies those time-frames though, man? :)


Quote

I still think this Bailey gig is a bit gimmicky, The Totnes school is the real deal man.


Have you been on either?  :wink:
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: GuiTony on April 20, 2008, 08:08:01 PM
Quote from: sambo
GuiTony- Cool! One more Q if you don't mind kind sir- how much of the equipment/tools e.t.c. did you have already, how much did you need to buy in? In other words, was the total cost £70, or was that the guitar materials specifically?


This time last year (ie before Bailey Course #1) my DiY toolkit consisted of a hammer and a couple of screwdrivers.  A slight exaggeration, but only a slight one.  

After the course, I bought a 10x10 workshop, and spent "enough" insulating it and kitting it out with general woodworky stuff and guitar-building specific tools.  Luckily, a good friend of mine wanted somewhere to store his bandsaw (really really useful) and bench planer (didn't use it on build #1), which saved me some money.

Other main tools required - a decent router with good template cutters, a pillar drill, long augur drill bits, sharp chisels, rasps & hand planes, lots of sandpaper of different grits, decent soldering iron, cordless drill, and all the specialist fretting stuff.  I got a cordless L-Ion Dremel from EvilBay last year, and used that a lot for the fine work.

TBH, I haven't added up what I've spent on tools (and won't, just in case my wife ever stumbles across this forum  :wink: ) but I can now build guitars a lot more cheaply (£76.88 for the Tele) than I ever bought them ... so it'll actually save me money eventually ... :P.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: ilÿti on April 20, 2008, 08:17:14 PM
The LP-DC is gorgeous. I'm not a fan of the pickup configuration either, but hey that's the beauty of making your own guitars. You don't have to even consider what others think.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: opprobrium_9 on April 20, 2008, 09:00:36 PM
Quote from: sambo
Quote from: opprobrium_9
 Electrics in 5 days?  I don't think so.  Archtops in 20 days?  Certainly not! :shock:  



Surely this here chap is evidence that verifies those time-frames though, man? :)


Just seeing it isn't enough.  I would have to sit down and play it, hear it, inspect it closely.  From personal experience i know that when starting out, even if you have woodworking skills beforehand (as i did), it takes long hours every day.  I put in 8-10 hours of solid work everyday for 3 months to get my guitar done, no compromises, no gimmicks, but working until perfection in detail could not cut it.  It had to be beyond that: accuracy within a fraction of 1 mm - and i am not even joking.  If you are going to build a guitar you can either do it one of two ways.  First, you can make something that very well looks like a guitar, and pretty well plays like a guitar, but is only just built for those functions at the most basic of levels.  Or, you can really BUILD it, work out every single detail to flawless perfection to the threshold of one's personal sanity.  I choose the latter.

Quote from: sambo

I still think this Bailey gig is a bit gimmicky, The Totnes school is the real deal man.

Have you been on either?  :wink:


And yes, i have been on the Totnes course, and the product of my time there is in this thread here:

http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9239

We worked to a level of precision that is beyond what any CNC machine can produce.  While a CNC machine will come within .3ish mm of the desired goal, we operated entirely at .1 for every desired goal - and guess what, you get precision to a level that most custom builders do not afford you.

Given my experience in the matter, i can very well speak for precision's sake and how long it should take a beginner.  This is not to say there are some more proficient than others and finish faster.  But for a beginner i would say no less than 1 1/2 to 2 months (if they are EXTREMELY proficient) to make a REAL quality instrument with unparalleled precision.  For the master builders, well, that varies of course.

I am not discounting your work GuiTony.  The guitar certainly LOOKS nice, but now that i am an experienced builder, i say that is not enough.  I understand that the Totnes course is impracticable for most.  I understand that Totnes is not in everybody's budget range, and also not realistic for everyone given the time schedule it demands, but nonetheless you are going to get a far better quality instrument in 3 months of concentrated work than you are in 5-10 days.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: sgmypod on April 20, 2008, 09:23:41 PM
thats pretty....are you making for yourself or to sell on?
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: opprobrium_9 on April 20, 2008, 09:26:50 PM
Quote from: sgmypod
thats pretty....are you making for yourself or to sell on?


for now for myself
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: noodleplugerine on April 20, 2008, 09:30:51 PM
Quote from: opprobrium_9
Quote from: sambo
Quote from: opprobrium_9
 Electrics in 5 days?  I don't think so.  Archtops in 20 days?  Certainly not! :shock:  



Surely this here chap is evidence that verifies those time-frames though, man? :)


Just seeing it isn't enough.  I would have to sit down and play it, hear it, inspect it closely.  From personal experience i know that when starting out, even if you have woodworking skills beforehand (as i did), it takes long hours every day.  I put in 8-10 hours of solid work everyday for 3 months to get my guitar done, no compromises, no gimmicks, but working until perfection in detail could not cut it.  It had to be beyond that: accuracy within a fraction of 1 mm - and i am not even joking.  If you are going to build a guitar you can either do it one of two ways.  First, you can make something that very well looks like a guitar, and pretty well plays like a guitar, but is only just built for those functions at the most basic of levels.  Or, you can really BUILD it, work out every single detail to flawless perfection to the threshold of one's personal sanity.  I choose the latter.

Quote from: sambo

I still think this Bailey gig is a bit gimmicky, The Totnes school is the real deal man.

Have you been on either?  :wink:


And yes, i have been on the Totnes course, and the product of my time there is in this thread here:

http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9239

We worked to a level of precision that is beyond what any CNC machine can produce.  While a CNC machine will come within .3ish mm of the desired goal, we operated entirely at .1 for every desired goal - and guess what, you get precision to a level that most custom builders do not afford you.

Given my experience in the matter, i can very well speak for precision's sake and how long it should take a beginner.  This is not to say there are some more proficient than others and finish faster.  But for a beginner i would say no less than 1 1/2 to 2 months (if they are EXTREMELY proficient) to make a REAL quality instrument with unparalleled precision.  For the master builders, well, that varies of course.

I am not discounting your work GuiTony.  The guitar certainly LOOKS nice, but now that i am an experienced builder, i say that is not enough.  I understand that the Totnes course is impracticable for most.  I understand that Totnes is not in everybody's budget range, and also not realistic for everyone given the time schedule it demands, but nonetheless you are going to get a far better quality instrument in 3 months of concentrated work than you are in 5-10 days.


Calm down Opprob.

I don't want to be rude but come on - The arrogance is nauseating.

Just because someone doesn't do it your way doesn't mean its the wrong way.

I also think its a bit rash to call yourself an experiences builder - I doubt half the builders here who have built more guitars than you have would call themselves experienced.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: MrBump on April 20, 2008, 09:47:03 PM
Ref:

http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11917

 :)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: sambo on April 20, 2008, 09:51:37 PM
Ah silly me- course you've been on the Totnes course! :)

Anyway, I suppose my question should have read: "have you been on both courses" really. :wink: Haha.


But anyway- my only real point was that the guitars built by the 'students' on the Bailey course, are evidence that archtops/electrics CAN be built in the time-frame they claim. Now the quality of a guitar built in such a time-span can be disputed obviously, but that's another matter entirely.


:)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: WezV on April 20, 2008, 09:52:02 PM
i reckon mark has a pretty good system set-up.. sure, making a guitar from scratch in 5 days is quite a mission but his customers are obviously happy if they go back year after year.   tony is the first to admit it possibly isnt the best way to learn how to make guitars.

tony, i have also been meaning to ask to see the NSG's
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: GuiTony on April 20, 2008, 09:52:12 PM
Quote from: opprobrium_9
Just seeing it isn't enough.  I would have to sit down and play it, hear it, inspect it closely.  

Absolutely.  I wouldn't expect anyone to assess or judge a guitar merely on the basis of a few photos.

Quote from: opprobrium_9

I put in 8-10 hours of solid work everyday for 3 months to get my guitar done, no compromises, no gimmicks, but working until perfection in detail could not cut it.  

I'd accept 3 months if you're spending at least half that time studying and understanding design concepts, understanding the different properties of the various woods (and combinations thereof), etc, etc, etc.  But, even a "perfect" guitar should be obtainable in 2-3 weeks (plus paint spraying and hardening time).  Not 3 months.  Surely??

Quote from: opprobrium_9

It had to be beyond that: accuracy within a fraction of 1 mm - and i am not even joking.

mmmmm .... has anyone ever called you "obsessive" ??   :wink:   What aspect of the build was genuinely critical to within a fraction of 1mm?  I accept that a decent fret job will have the frets sorted to that sort of tolerance, and getting a perfect finish will involve removing scratches that might have a depth of 0.01mm, but - seriously - what else do you do to that tolerance?

Quote from: opprobrium_9

The guitar certainly LOOKS nice, but now that i am an experienced builder, i say that is not enough.  

Absolutely agree with you - and you don't have to be an experienced builder - an average player will soon judge!  I built this to play, not to look at, and all of the guitars from Mark's course meet the same criteria.

Quote from: opprobrium_9

nonetheless you are going to get a far better quality instrument in 3 months of concentrated work than you are in 5-10 days.

Don't agree with you there (am I allowed to disagree as a noob?).  I'd say that after 2-3-4 weeks (depending on experience and level of teaching/guidance) you'd reach diminishing returns - ie you'd spend time changing or finessing stuff, and actually making it worse ... then spending more time putting it right again!

I didn't come here to get into an argument about "this is better", just to say "hello"   :?
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: GuiTony on April 20, 2008, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: WezV

tony, i have also been meaning to ask to see the NSG's


PIcs, or in the flesh?
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: sambo on April 20, 2008, 09:55:46 PM
Forgot to say- thanks for the info on the tools! :)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: opprobrium_9 on April 21, 2008, 01:25:32 AM
Quote from: noodleplugerine
Calm down Opprob.

I don't want to be rude but come on - The arrogance is nauseating.


I am not trying to be arrogant here, go over to Totnes and have a chat with Phil, the man who runs the thing.  He will tell you the same thing.  If you work for 5-10 days you are certainly gonna build some kind of instrument, it just won't be up to snuff when it comes down to that and 2-3 months worth of work.

Quote

Just because someone doesn't do it your way doesn't mean its the wrong way.


I didn't say it was wrong i just said i seriously doubt i would be as good as something that is worked on for a good spell longer.  I am not saying that mine is better than his either, i certainly think there are so many things wrong with my guitar, but the playability of my guitar, and my buddies on the course is as yet in my experience unparalleled in other guitars.  I can sit down in a shop and play a PRS and notice all the things wrong with it, and considering they build their instruments to high standards, that is saying something.  I am not gonna say i am better builder than someone at the PRS factory, but then, i am saying that i have experienced a new level of build quality that sets my standards high.

Quote
I also think its a bit rash to call yourself an experiences builder - I doubt half the builders here who have built more guitars than you have would call themselves experienced.


Well, i am not gonna say i am experienced as Phil, or WezV, or Feline, or some others on here, but i will say that yes, i do have experience.  Getting intimate details and tips from one of the best in the business helps quite a bit.  I would say it will be another 10 to 20 guitars before i feel like i would be truly reaching an experienced level at building guitars.  Nonetheless, i am a builder and i do have experience, however my translation of that fact was obviously misinterpreted and i apologize.

Quote from: MrBump
Ref:

http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11917

 :)


Glad you caught that sir, my hat is off to you.  I am not trying to stir up trouble just explain an opinion, though unfortunately it seems to be turning out to be lethal.

Quote from: GuiTony

I'd accept 3 months if you're spending at least half that time studying and understanding design concepts, understanding the different properties of the various woods (and combinations thereof), etc, etc, etc.  But, even a "perfect" guitar should be obtainable in 2-3 weeks (plus paint spraying and hardening time).  Not 3 months.  Surely??


Actually, you would be surprised.  Most of the time you spend actually doing whatever it is you are doing.  Very little of the time is Phil actually explaining details to you.  Every now and again he would come over to see how you were doing and tell you if you were doing it right or wrong.  I would say time with Phil actually talking about the stuff to us or helping us individually was less than an 45 mins a day on average.  There were some days that were quite a bit more than that due to him showing us all how to do stuff, or say we might be gluing something he needed to help us glue.  I would say if you narrow it down to about a 2 month period you would be getting close to an ideal beginner work time for that type of precision.

Quote
mmmmm .... has anyone ever called you "obsessive" ??


I call myself that every day. :wink:

Quote
What aspect of the build was genuinely critical to within a fraction of 1mm?  I accept that a decent fret job will have the frets sorted to that sort of tolerance, and getting a perfect finish will involve removing scratches that might have a depth of 0.01mm, but - seriously - what else do you do to that tolerance?


i doing a 0.01-0.15 mm tolerance would only be necessary on fretboard relief.  However the rest of the guitar should be held to a 0.1 mm tolerance, that is how you get precision in build quality.  Talk to Phil about it he will tell you the same thing.  Machines produce a 0.3 mm MINIMUM tolerance but the human eye and by hand you can get down to a 0.1 mm tolerance.  It is one of the important aspects of why all the guitars coming out of that school play so perfectly.


On a friendlier note: My apologies for not welcoming you to the forum.  So, welcome.  I have been warned about 5 day gimmick courses, especially by Phil, so i suppose you can understand why i would rather promote Phil's course.  If this guy's students like it and go back every year, great for them, seriously, more power to them.  However, if you want to learn serious build quality and precision i would say go to Phil, there is really no compromise IMO.  I am sure you are gonna build some kind of instrument when you go on the course with this guy, but again i would question the level of excellence in craftsmanship this guy is teaching if it is so durned quick.  I am not trying to start an argument, but i am still very wary of such stuff and think that you should consider if you want speed in construction over precision or you want precision over speed of construction.

Your guitars are nice looking guitars, like i said.  And i am not discounting them in any way.  I am, however, more critical of the course, not faulting you and your decision for taking it.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: ilÿti on April 21, 2008, 01:36:39 AM
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think there was anything disrespectful or arrogant in what o9 said.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: WezV on April 21, 2008, 07:23:37 AM
i think Mark Bailey would disagree.

the way i see it the courses suit different people on different budgets with different amounts of free time... but both of you are happy with the outcome!!!

I had the time to do them but never the money so i took a much slower route !!!

tony - definately like to see the NSG's in the woody goodness at some point.. i cant deny Nathan's work has inspired me

O9 - i think the debate about which course is better should be left to Phil and Mark.. They both run businesses and i am sure wouldnt appreciate a bashing on a public forum.. Lets just welcome a new member (who isnt claiming to be an expert luthier just yet)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: GuiTony on April 21, 2008, 08:02:19 AM
Quote from: opprobrium_9
I have been warned about 5 day gimmick courses, especially by Phil, so i suppose you can understand why i would rather promote Phil's course.  If this guy's students like it and go back every year, great for them, seriously, more power to them.  However, if you want to learn serious build quality and precision i would say go to Phil, there is really no compromise IMO.


Glad we sorted a lot of that out  :wink:

There seems to be a lot of "rivalry" between the various courses - I know of 3 (Totnes, Craft Supplies & Bailey), and I've heard critical comments made by disciples of 2 of them against the third, but never (over 12 days of both intense and relaxed chat) heard anything negative said by the third against the other 2 ...

Whatever the benefits and positives about the Totnes course, you can't really call Mark's course "a gimmick", unless you've been there and done it.  I can't compare the 2 courses because I'll never be able to do the Totnes course, so - for me - it was Baileys or nothing, and I'm absolutely certain that I made the completely correct choice there.

In terms of quality or accuracy or (etc), can I suggest that you go along to one of the guitar shows where Mark exhibits, and pick up one of his own guitars to try it out.  The guitars that come out of his course are built to the same standards - different hands on the tools, but the same pair of eyes responsible for quality control!

Bottom line - you're happy and I'm happy so the (very different) courses worked for us, and will work (very differently) for many others ...

Quote from: WezV

tony - definately like to see the NSG's in the woody goodness at some point.. i cant deny Nathan's work has inspired me

Wez - you have a pm.  At the risk of re-opening the can of worms, did you know that Nathan's first guitar was built on the Bailey course ......
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: Kilby on April 21, 2008, 12:09:34 PM
Firstly I would like to say, nice looking guitar and welcome

However from one obcessive to another (O9) coming from a family with a pretty hefty engineering background I have to point out that 0.1mm (sub 0.004 of an inch (or 4 thou thou in engineering circles) to us old people) is not the best tolarance use in the same sentance as wood. Even a smallish piece of wood will vary more than a couple of thou due to temperature and huimidity

I'm not sure where the 0.01 mill measurement cam from is only really valid for polishing of frets or body finish (thats a finer tolerance of TT racing bike engines from the early 90s BTW (my father used to reengineer Joey Dunlops race engines as part of the R&D team)

Not to be akward though I totally agree that CNC produced items are best finished by hand for the best possible result (both fit and finish). But I do have an issue with pretty invalid measurements (sorry)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: opprobrium_9 on April 21, 2008, 12:47:23 PM
Quote from: GuiTony
Quote from: opprobrium_9
I have been warned about 5 day gimmick courses, especially by Phil, so i suppose you can understand why i would rather promote Phil's course.  If this guy's students like it and go back every year, great for them, seriously, more power to them.  However, if you want to learn serious build quality and precision i would say go to Phil, there is really no compromise IMO.


Glad we sorted a lot of that out  :wink:

There seems to be a lot of "rivalry" between the various courses - I know of 3 (Totnes, Craft Supplies & Bailey), and I've heard critical comments made by disciples of 2 of them against the third, but never (over 12 days of both intense and relaxed chat) heard anything negative said by the third against the other 2 ...

Whatever the benefits and positives about the Totnes course, you can't really call Mark's course "a gimmick", unless you've been there and done it.  I can't compare the 2 courses because I'll never be able to do the Totnes course, so - for me - it was Baileys or nothing, and I'm absolutely certain that I made the completely correct choice there.

In terms of quality or accuracy or (etc), can I suggest that you go along to one of the guitar shows where Mark exhibits, and pick up one of his own guitars to try it out.  The guitars that come out of his course are built to the same standards - different hands on the tools, but the same pair of eyes responsible for quality control!

Bottom line - you're happy and I'm happy so the (very different) courses worked for us, and will work (very differently) for many others ...


I wasn't really trying to start an interweb brawl.  But honestly, when you are told about something by someone you revere and respect as having the utmost knowledge of a subject (as Phil has been doing it quite some time), you tend to want to follow that knowledge to a T.

EDIT: yeah, i suppose i would have to do it to really make a decision.

Quote from: Kilby
However from one obcessive to another (O9) coming from a family with a pretty hefty engineering background I have to point out that 0.1mm (sub 0.004 of an inch (or 4 thou thou in engineering circles) to us old people) is not the best tolarance use in the same sentance as wood. Even a smallish piece of wood will vary more than a couple of thou due to temperature and huimidity

I'm not sure where the 0.01 mill measurement cam from is only really valid for polishing of frets or body finish (thats a finer tolerance of TT racing bike engines from the early 90s BTW (my father used to reengineer Joey Dunlops race engines as part of the R&D team)

Not to be akward though I totally agree that CNC produced items are best finished by hand for the best possible result (both fit and finish). But I do have an issue with pretty invalid measurements (sorry)


This is good to know, i do not have a thorough engineering background, these are just the facts i picked up from Phil.  I will have to email him about it now and see what he says about it.  If the measurements are invalid, well then it might very well be my blundering of the facts, so this is a good chance to catch up with Phil about that and other things.  Much appreciated correction.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: Roobubba on April 21, 2008, 02:54:45 PM
Whether or not that guitar is made to within 100 microns of a plan or not, it looks bloody lovely!

Welcome to the forum :)

Roo
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: Kilby on April 21, 2008, 02:58:41 PM
Quote from: opprobrium_9

This is good to know, i do not have a thorough engineering background, these are just the facts i picked up from Phil.  I will have to email him about it now and see what he says about it.  If the measurements are invalid, well then it might very well be my blundering of the facts, so this is a good chance to catch up with Phil about that and other things.  Much appreciated correction.


It's not so much an intention of correcting anybody more a case of me being pedantic. It is possible to get to very fine tolerances with good tools, eyes and hands. But with certain materials as soon as you turn your back (or breathe upon the damn thing) it changes it's dimensions.

BTW I'm the black sheep of my family as I only have the theory side of things (pencil + paper + ruler = crooked line :( ) So I work in IT (much to my familys shame)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: opprobrium_9 on April 21, 2008, 08:17:28 PM
Quote from: Kilby
It's not so much an intention of correcting anybody more a case of me being pedantic. It is possible to get to very fine tolerances with good tools, eyes and hands. But with certain materials as soon as you turn your back (or breathe upon the damn thing) it changes it's dimensions.


ok, now i am more clear about what you are talking about.  (See how bloody confusing and uncertain forums can be?)  Anyways, that is why after you think the surface is damn well perfect you wet it, let it dry (so the wood swells), remeasure, and then plane down the high spots with a nice sharp plane.  Then you repeat the process until the swelling of the water cannot be measured by feel or sight, then you glue.  That's how you get a damn tight glue join!
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: dave_mc on April 21, 2008, 08:27:31 PM
those guitars are really nice.  :)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: GuiTony on April 22, 2008, 08:56:11 AM
Just to complete the set (yes, ok, I am showing off) ... here's my first born ... my first Bailey build ... my first ever in-any-way-self-build.  

It isn't built to quite the same standard compared to my second Bailey build, it uses simpler woods (2-piece Ash body), and the headstock design was only a good idea when I drew it in the pub.  

But, this is the guitar that I didn't think I'd be able to build.  I can't describe the feeling when, after 5 days working on it, I plugged it in and actually heard it for the first time ... and I can't find an appropriate emoticon either ...

(http://www.deliveryconsulting.com/BYOG/BYOG1d.jpg)
(http://www.deliveryconsulting.com/BYOG/BYOG1c.jpg)
(http://www.deliveryconsulting.com/BYOG/BYOG1a.jpg)
(http://www.deliveryconsulting.com/BYOG/BYOG1b.jpg)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: sambo on April 22, 2008, 09:54:03 AM
Another really nice looking guitar! In fact if it was a single-cut, I would be madly in love with it. :lol:

I have to say, for 5 days work of someone who has never built a guitar before, it looks very impressive indeed.


P.S. Yeah the headstock is a little... 'abstract'. :wink:

P.P.S You have a HUGE garden! :lol:
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: Kilby on April 22, 2008, 10:01:35 AM
I like that one a lot, I have a very soft spot for double cut guitars

Quote from: sambo
P.S. Yeah the headstock is a little... 'abstract'. :wink:


I think it can be used to keep drummers and lead singers under control ;)

Quote from: opprobrium_9

Then you repeat the process until the swelling of the water cannot be measured by feel or sight, then you glue. That's how you get a damn tight glue join!


Unfortunitely the bugger will always vary it's dimemsions, when talking about fine tolerances, but indeed it is the best fit as opposed to (cut within 0.0x of a mm).

I just wish that Gibson would pay a decent amount of attention to their builds as the fecking charge enough for their products (and definately have lower material costs)
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: MrBump on April 22, 2008, 10:49:58 AM
That's a really great guitar.  You should be proud, regardless of how you got there!!!

Mark.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: _tom_ on April 22, 2008, 11:00:20 AM
Quote from: Roobubba
Whether or not that guitar is made to within 100 microns of a plan or not, it looks bloody lovely!

Welcome to the forum :)

Roo


+1

Dont like the pickup config much but otherwise it looks quite nice. Does it really matter if it isnt as accurate as something produced on that other course which takes longer? I dont think I'd even be able to notice such things :lol:
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: Kilby on April 22, 2008, 12:08:32 PM
Quote from: Roobubba
Whether or not that guitar is made to within 100 microns of a plan or not, it looks bloody lovely!

Welcome to the forum :)

Roo


Thjats the point I was trying to make, as long as it plays well and sounds good and is put together properly. It's the right fit and right feel, not how finely things can be measured

If a course gets you a decent idea of how to build a decent quality guitar then it's a good course.

Even quality brands build lemons or mistaken designs after 100+ years of production
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: WezV on April 22, 2008, 12:18:56 PM
This whole thing reminds me of the documentary of gibson custom shop making a replica of clappo's 335.

they went through loads of stages of making accurate molds of the neck carve and taking 3d scans so that they could produce a very accurate replica... then it shows them taking the original guitar down to the guy who does the final shaping on the neck so he could have a feel and make sure its right.

Personally once the critical measurements are done i tend to build by feel rather than numbers.  It does mean more inconsistency and i guess less perfection... oh well :P
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: MrBump on April 22, 2008, 12:26:59 PM
Quote from: WezV
This whole thing reminds me of the documentary of gibson custom shop making a replica of clappo's 335.

they went through loads of stages of making accurate molds of the neck carve and taking 3d scans so that they could produce a very accurate replica... then it shows them taking the original guitar down to the guy who does the final shaping on the neck so he could have a feel and make sure its right.

Personally once the critical measurements are done i tend to build by feel rather than numbers.  It does mean more inconsistency and i guess less perfection... oh well :P


Personally I think that it's slight imperfections that make things interesting - in guitars AND women.

Mark.
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: Kilby on April 22, 2008, 12:36:02 PM
Quote from: WezV

Personally once the critical measurements are done i tend to build by feel rather than numbers.  It does mean more inconsistency and i guess less perfection... oh well :P


I thought the right feel got you well on the way to perfection

If it dosn't feel and play right then it dosn't matter what the numbers say
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: opprobrium_9 on April 22, 2008, 04:13:40 PM
RE: GuiTony's first guitar


You should paint a cherry burst on that bad boy!


EDIT:

Quote from: WezV
Personally once the critical measurements are done i tend to build by feel rather than numbers.  It does mean more inconsistency and i guess less perfection... oh well :P


Actually i think you can get an even closer cut and more accuracy with feel than with machines.  You just have to know the wood you are working with, get a handle on the individual piece's properties, and pay close attention  :)  That is what i did, worked bloody brilliant!
Title: Mr New Here
Post by: GuiTony on April 24, 2008, 10:51:17 AM
Having way too much time on my hands, I started completely-on-my-own-self-build #2 at the weekend.

I've done 2 "self" builds on the Bailey course, followed by 1 completely-on-my-own build for the £100 challenge, and have now officially got the bug.

So I've started another.  This time, rather than cheating by using a pre-made neck (I sort of had to for the £100 challenge to stay within budget), I'm making the neck from scratch too.  Plus adding a little complexity to the body build ... just for fun!

Rather than clogging up this board with loads of pics, the pics are on the blog.  All comments, criticisms, observations and suggestions are gratefully received - if I can learn something without making the mistake first, I'm more than happy!