Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: HTH AMPS on April 23, 2008, 10:39:03 PM
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Anyone got thoughts on the abolishment of this 10p tax rate the government is gonna screw us with?
Seems like the core Labour voters are gonna be hit by this, I certainly will be. it's a f*cking disgrace - I've always been a Labour guy, but after pulling free study and now this (not to mention the decision to go go war in Iraq), I've just had it with them.
I predict a hammering in the council elections for Labour.
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as always, its the low earners that are hit more... typical new labour!!
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It's gonna hit me right where it hurts - I'm a single guy, with no kids, earning sub-£18k per year - I lose on every score. I also got hit with the first wave of student loans and up-front tution fees when I went to uni, and am now being screwed by the fact they sold off the Student Loans Company to people who put up the interest rate, despite promising not to do so.
All that, plus the war and cosying up to one of the most right-wing, reactionary presidential administrations America has had in the last 30 years, leaves me feeling very disillusioned with the Labour Party. I feel quite sad that's the case too, because when they came to power in '97, there was so much potential for them to do the right things
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I just find it amazing that the Labour party, of all people, have brought in a tax change that leaves only the lowest-paid worse off. But of course those are the people the government seems to care least about.
I've always thought we should have a band higher than the 40% band, like we had back in the '70s. Just for real high earners - tax the people who can best afford to pay. If these chief execs and hedge fund managers are going to award themselves 7-figure bonuses, at least get some extra tax out of the buggers.
Of course the government would never do that, as they're afraid wealthy foreign investors would take their money elsewhere. And only the people who should be paying a lot of tax can afford to avoid tax through things like offshore trusts.
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at least they gave us minimum wage, people always focus on the now, ye I don't like losing the 10p tax rate, all governments are bad, their first priority is pleasing the public to stay in power next time round
you can't tax the mega rich because they'll just $%&# off to another country and thanks to the credit crunch public finances are going to suffer and that's the fault of banks not governments
if there was an election now the tories would win because people blame the government for inflation problems, the credit crisis and falling house prices when it's not in their control
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at least they gave us minimum wage, people always focus on the now, ye I don't like losing the 10p tax rate, all governments are bad, their first priority is pleasing the public to stay in power next time round
you can't tax the mega rich because they'll just $%&# off to another country and thanks to the credit crunch public finances are going to suffer and that's the fault of banks not governments
if there was an election now the tories would win because people blame the government for inflation problems, the credit crisis and falling house prices when it's not in their control
+100000.
I go to sleep safely at night knowing that no matter how bad it is, if it were Tory - It would be alot worse.
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New labour = New Tories
Blair was always Thatchers bar-steward offspring.
Except they seem to have dropped the ball over imigration etc
And dont get me started over Iraq
My politics have always been more Liberal than either Labour or Conservative
The 10p Tax abolition will hit me hard I'm afraid to say
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at least they gave us minimum wage, people always focus on the now, ye I don't like losing the 10p tax rate, all governments are bad, their first priority is pleasing the public to stay in power next time round
you can't tax the mega rich because they'll just $%&# off to another country and thanks to the credit crunch public finances are going to suffer and that's the fault of banks not governments
if there was an election now the tories would win because people blame the government for inflation problems, the credit crisis and falling house prices when it's not in their control
+100000.
I go to sleep safely at night knowing that no matter how bad it is, if it were Tory - It would be alot worse.
+ another 100000.
I found the Tory rule of the 1980's a very depressing time - not sure I want to go back there...
Finance is in a bad way at the moment (I work for an investment bank, redundancies abound, it's pretty depressing...) - but on the whole we as a society have had a pretty easy ride. And don't slam me for saying that; I'm speaking in general terms - there will always be big winners and big losers in any economy. But governments play the game of averages, and in general I still feel safer with red than blue. In general terms I believe that the 10p tax thing was compensated for in other ways, and so on AVERAGE people were better off.
But I know that it hurts when you fall outside the average...
This country actually does quite well in terms of the current economic climate, we're just suffering from the lack of liquidity in the global market that was caused by stupid North American lending (and as I work for a Canadian bank I'm also a part of the stupid set...).
It'll get better. It will take a couple of years, but it will improve.
Mark.
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at least they gave us minimum wage, people always focus on the now, ye I don't like losing the 10p tax rate, all governments are bad, their first priority is pleasing the public to stay in power next time round
you can't tax the mega rich because they'll just $%&# off to another country and thanks to the credit crunch public finances are going to suffer and that's the fault of banks not governments
if there was an election now the tories would win because people blame the government for inflation problems, the credit crisis and falling house prices when it's not in their control
+100000.
I go to sleep safely at night knowing that no matter how bad it is, if it were Tory - It would be alot worse.
+ another 100000.
I found the Tory rule of the 1980's a very depressing time - not sure I want to go back there...
Finance is in a bad way at the moment (I work for an investment bank, redundancies abound, it's pretty depressing...) - but on the whole we as a society have had a pretty easy ride. And don't slam me for saying that; I'm speaking in general terms - there will always be big winners and big losers in any economy. But governments play the game of averages, and in general I still feel safer with red than blue. In general terms I believe that the 10p tax thing was compensated for in other ways, and so on AVERAGE people were better off.
But I know that it hurts when you fall outside the average...
This country actually does quite well in terms of the current economic climate, we're just suffering from the lack of liquidity in the global market that was caused by stupid North American lending (and as I work for a Canadian bank I'm also a part of the stupid set...).
It'll get better. It will take a couple of years, but it will improve.
Mark.
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Well, i'm against it - but not because it affects 'the poor' but because it affects people who always get shafted - aspirant lower middle class families like my parents who are trying to lift their kids out of the mire that they came from.
As a self employed higher rate tax payer I would like to know that the 40% tax rate I pay on my hard earned income does not go into some chav's pocket to give them a free ride - but all I see is the government giving them endless carrots and no sticks.
I have always been a labour voter and can't abide the current crop of snide Lord Snooty's in the Tory party who are currently saying anything to get elected. But then I can't stand the current dour visionless Scottish mafia who are running England either. I think its not apathy that stops people voting but disgust with the system.
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I think its not apathy that stops people voting but disgust with the system.
Certainly agree with you there. I've always voted whenever I can, I feel it's important to exercise our democratic rights (and all that gubbins...), but there's so little difference between the parties now that it makes almost no difference.
I have no idea how to vote in the London mayoral election. I might just have to give it a miss.
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I think its not apathy that stops people voting but disgust with the system.
+1
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I just find it amazing that the Labour party, of all people, have brought in a tax change that leaves only the lowest-paid worse off. But of course those are the people the government seems to care least about.
I've always thought we should have a band higher than the 40% band, like we had back in the '70s. Just for real high earners - tax the people who can best afford to pay. If these chief execs and hedge fund managers are going to award themselves 7-figure bonuses, at least get some extra tax out of the buggers.
Of course the government would never do that, as they're afraid wealthy foreign investors would take their money elsewhere. And only the people who should be paying a lot of tax can afford to avoid tax through things like offshore trusts.
+1
new labour seems to be the worst parts of labour combined with the worst parts of the tories... worst of both worlds...
:(
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No wonder my parents are moving abroad when I go to uni...
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I've always thought we should have a band higher than the 40% band, like we had back in the '70s. Just for real high earners - tax the people who can best afford to pay. If these chief execs and hedge fund managers are going to award themselves 7-figure bonuses, at least get some extra tax out of the buggers.
While I completely agree with this, I see the potential danger: Down the line, when year after year the threshold for higher rate tax isn't increased in line with inflation, you end up with more and more people being stung with it. Just like Stamp Duty - that was only there originally as a tax on big, expensive houses - now well all have to pay it pretty much, and not just that, we're all near to or over the bloody high rate 250k band, too!
Also, the Rich people always find ways to protect their cash through offshore investments and tax loopholes; the rest of us will always be screwed :(
Roo
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Just like Stamp Duty - that was only there originally as a tax on big, expensive houses - now well all have to pay it pretty much, and not just that, we're all near to or over the bloody high rate 250k band, too!
not if you live in a diadvantaged area like mine :wink: i never felt so lucky to be disadvantaged
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I've always thought we should have a band higher than the 40% band, like we had back in the '70s. Just for real high earners - tax the people who can best afford to pay. If these chief execs and hedge fund managers are going to award themselves 7-figure bonuses, at least get some extra tax out of the buggers.
While I completely agree with this, I see the potential danger: Down the line, when year after year the threshold for higher rate tax isn't increased in line with inflation, you end up with more and more people being stung with it. Just like Stamp Duty - that was only there originally as a tax on big, expensive houses - now well all have to pay it pretty much, and not just that, we're all near to or over the bloody high rate 250k band, too!
Also, the Rich people always find ways to protect their cash through offshore investments and tax loopholes; the rest of us will always be screwed :(
Roo
Yeah, I'm not suggesting it as a practical or likely option - although they did have a "supertax" rate in the '70s (which had the benefit of driving people like the Bee Gees out of the country :wink: ).
But in principle, I think they should tax high earners rather than, for example, hit "ordinary" people with Inheritance Tax just because the property market has skyrocketed.
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(which had the benefit of driving people like the Bee Gees out of the country :wink: ).
Shame it didn't work on Paul McCartney :(
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I have no idea how to vote in the London mayoral election. I might just have to give it a miss.
Really? Its a no brainer for me - Boris is an absolute clown, but for some reason the papers are totally backing him, ignoring the fact the guy is an absolute joke.
If Ken acted in any way like Boris you'd expect it plastered over the Evening Standard within an hour.
Frankly, I think Ken's done a bloody brilliant job. Free travel for kids is an absolute godsend.
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Boris is an absolute clown, but for some reason the papers are totally backing him, ignoring the fact the guy is an absolute joke.
Agree with you there, he's obviously a highly intelligent guy but he seems to have no common sense and is the epitome of the term "loose cannon". I don't think he could run a corner shop, never mind London.
I don't think Ken's done a bad job, but I am concerned about the state of public transport - the costs are constantly going up, the roads are definitely more congested than ever and the tubes are no better than they ever were. And I don't want to get all Daily Mail, but I'd like to see more visible coppers and action on street crime.
(A bit of trivia: I have something in common with Boris Johnson - we were born on the same day in 1964. :roll: )
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The Evening Standard, being the 'London'* wing of the Daily Mail has always campaigned against Livingstone - hence his camp comandant comments against some Evening Standard muck raker a while back and the political capital that was made out of that.
*I say London because the Evening Standard is written for people who live in Surrey and work/dine in London, not Londoners.
I personally am in favour of the US system of no more than two terms in office - its stops politicians become stale and corrupt and it stops a skills defiicit in government. So on my reckoning ken should make way for someone else, preferable not Boris Johnson.
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just like to add that looking at what the economists are saying I'm under the opinion that the credit crunch will take 2 years to get over, there won't be a recession, just slow growth, the FTSE 100 is back over 6000 already, it dropped from 6000 to 5500 when it was all over the news the other month
I expect house prices to fall or freeze for the next 5 years too, but I've read less on this than I have on the credit crisis so I'm less certain in my opinion
don't be surprised if clothes stops being so cheap either, what with rising costs for cotton and Chinese wages rising
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the worst thing is that politics is so f*cking bland now - the two major parties are, to paraphrase Gorgeous George (GG), two checks of the same behind.
we need a proper socialist government, take back the public transport, banks and energy companies and nationalise 'em (yes, I'm living in la-la-land, but we can always dream)
I'd back a new political party headed by big GG - he's the only guy that ever talks real sense in politics these days. It's just a shame that Tony Ben is too old to join in again too.
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The Evening Standard, being the 'London'* wing of the Daily Mail has always campaigned against Livingstone - hence his camp comandant comments against some Evening Standard muck raker a while back and the political capital that was made out of that.
*I say London because the Evening Standard is written for people who live in Surrey and work/dine in London, not Londoners.
I personally am in favour of the US system of no more than two terms in office - its stops politicians become stale and corrupt and it stops a skills defiicit in government. So on my reckoning ken should make way for someone else, preferable not Boris Johnson.
I find the Ken Bashing that this string of papers indulge in... and in favour of Boris!!! And it's all taken seriously!!!
:roll: :evil: :roll: :evil: :roll: :evil: :roll: :evil:
I liked Ken back in the day when Socialism was proper socialism. He certainly isn't to everyones taste, and definitely NOT whiter than white, but he's at least up front and pro London.
Mark.
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The Evening Standard, being the 'London'* wing of the Daily Mail has always campaigned against Livingstone - hence his camp comandant comments against some Evening Standard muck raker a while back and the political capital that was made out of that.
*I say London because the Evening Standard is written for people who live in Surrey and work/dine in London, not Londoners.
I personally am in favour of the US system of no more than two terms in office - its stops politicians become stale and corrupt and it stops a skills defiicit in government. So on my reckoning ken should make way for someone else, preferable not Boris Johnson.
I find the Ken Bashing that this string of papers indulge in... and in favour of Boris!!! And it's all taken seriously!!!
:roll: :evil: :roll: :evil: :roll: :evil: :roll: :evil:
I liked Ken back in the day when Socialism was proper socialism. He certainly isn't to everyones taste, and definitely NOT whiter than white, but he's at least up front and pro London.
Mark.
Pretty much agreed. The guy's blunt, and strongwilled - Boris is a pushover - would just do whatever the tories want him to.
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even better with Ken L was the Labour party kicking him out then crawling back and asking him to rejoin when he became Mayor of London, priceless!!! :lol:
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Well I am no fan of Ken I am afraid-I remember how he came to power in the days of the GLC but thankfully the London Mayor thing is nothing to do with me as I am out of the area. I have come to realise that "democracy" as we know it is where everyone gets what no-one wants .
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Interested to see that the Tories now have an 18 point lead in opinion polls - their highest in 21 years.
It very much looks like the public backlash to the 10p tax gaff will hit Labour extremely hard indeed, which I'm all in favour of. I'm not a Tory person by any stretch of the imagination but the sheer lack of judgement demonstrated by Labour with the 10p tax thing is simply staggering.
What did they expect would happen? It was always going to spell disaster for them, especially at a time when public opinion of Labour was at an all time low due to other very dodgy policy decisions.
I remember the latter end of the Tory government in the mid 90's and this is very similar indeed. Poor policy decisions, scandal all over the place and shocking judgement quite rightly allowed Labour to come to power.
IMHO the wheel has turned full circle and Labour are in a very similar position the Tories were in 1997.
They fully deserve to get booted out of power and good riddance to them.
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at least they gave us minimum wage, people always focus on the now, ye I don't like losing the 10p tax rate, all governments are bad, their first priority is pleasing the public to stay in power next time round
you can't tax the mega rich because they'll just $%&# off to another country and thanks to the credit crunch public finances are going to suffer and that's the fault of banks not governments
if there was an election now the tories would win because people blame the government for inflation problems, the credit crisis and falling house prices when it's not in their control
+100000.
I go to sleep safely at night knowing that no matter how bad it is, if it were Tory - It would be alot worse.
How can it possibly be any worse? This government are the worst in this country's history!
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at least they gave us minimum wage, people always focus on the now, ye I don't like losing the 10p tax rate, all governments are bad, their first priority is pleasing the public to stay in power next time round
you can't tax the mega rich because they'll just $%&# off to another country and thanks to the credit crunch public finances are going to suffer and that's the fault of banks not governments
if there was an election now the tories would win because people blame the government for inflation problems, the credit crisis and falling house prices when it's not in their control
+100000.
I go to sleep safely at night knowing that no matter how bad it is, if it were Tory - It would be alot worse.
How can it possibly be any worse? This government are the worst in this country's history!
I simply don't believe that's true.
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at least they gave us minimum wage, people always focus on the now, ye I don't like losing the 10p tax rate, all governments are bad, their first priority is pleasing the public to stay in power next time round
you can't tax the mega rich because they'll just $%&# off to another country and thanks to the credit crunch public finances are going to suffer and that's the fault of banks not governments
if there was an election now the tories would win because people blame the government for inflation problems, the credit crisis and falling house prices when it's not in their control
+100000.
I go to sleep safely at night knowing that no matter how bad it is, if it were Tory - It would be alot worse.
How can it possibly be any worse? This government are the worst in this country's history!
I simply don't believe that's true.
Wel I can put that down to your age! :lol:
My Father was in the Labour Party and this bunch have made him vote tory!
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I was in the Labour Party a looooong time ago, never again.
Being honest, I think they've done a lot of good as well as the obvious bad. Like someone pointed out on the first page, it's a lot better than the 80's. I remember one summer (I grew up officially under the poverty line) when all we could eat were the apples off the tree in the back garden. I was only a kid so I thought it was great.
I think the the abolishion of the 10% tax is a travesty. I think they've seen the mistake now but are afraid to go back and change it. Glad the basic 22% is comming down though. I had £1,047.73 deductions out of my wages this month.
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I personally am in favour of the US system of no more than two terms in office - its stops politicians become stale and corrupt and it stops a skills defiicit in government. So on my reckoning ken should make way for someone else, preferable not Boris Johnson.
agreed. and it has the added bonus of stopping despots for life.
unless you live in russia, i guess. :roll:
EDIT: what i don't understand is why people say "oh, labour aren't left-wing enough any more, i'm going to vote tory..."
:?
why not vote lib dem? there must be 40 million people in this country saying, "you know, if it weren't a wasted vote, i'd vote for the lib dems..."
:evil:
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[
EDIT: what i don't understand is why people say "oh, labour aren't left-wing enough any more, i'm going to vote tory..."
:?
why not vote lib dem? there must be 40 million people in this country saying, "you know, if it weren't a wasted vote, i'd vote for the lib dems..."
:evil:
+100000000
I am tired of the pendulum of either Labour or Conservatives but never any other party.
One party wants to tax the poor and give the money to the rich and the other wants to tax everyone and give the money to foriegners
I'm no longer sure which party does which but I know that I want NEITHER
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Proportional Representation is the way to go (ideally a non-partisan system altogether really as well). Good thing about the Lib Dems is that proportional Representation is part of their manifesto. Kudos to them for that.
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I can understand you saying that Sam except that PR can be more of a barrier to the process than it is a benefit. Not that I am defending the present system I would hasten to add and I wish I had an answer. Clearly something has to be done as the fact that politicians are now viewed with scorn.Not all of them deserve it -some I have known personally, of whatever party, embody all that is good in the desire to serve. Sadly, however, too many succumb to the party machine and they lose touch with those that put them there. The fundamental thing I think that many MPs have forgotten is that Governments are there to serve, they are there to carry out the will of the people, they are supposed to ensure the wellbeing of their bosses, i.e. the electorate. Most of all they must remember that they are entrusted with the power they have to use wisely and for the good of the people and they must return that to the people intact. Instead there are those that lord it about, instantly forget their ideals and who put them there and the worst sin of all, they stop listening.
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Yeah, Sam... PR just has other side effects, less consituent background, so the politicians are less accountable.
So eg. if the Asian population is 2% and the female population is 50% that means that there has to be a male and a female asian or whatever. And we all know China's laws of one child, so its less likely that there will be 50% females within the Asian community. What do you do then?
Whatever you choose, people will oppose it.
What I have learnt from A level politics: this country's politics is shite, and whatever happens, people will complain, and then not vote the opposite way, and you just can't win
America: slightly better in some aspects, but they have to vote for everything! so they get bored of ticking candidates boxes and can't be arsed leading to a low turnout.
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Im pretty much against PR - all it does is make for weak governments that can fall by the minute - Look at Italy, by all accounts Silvio Burlusconi is unpopular but he's back again because the popular government couldn't hold it together under Prodi (which is probably right given that he is was the German/French axis lap dog when he was president of the EU)
On the other hand strong governments make for elected dictatorships - 3 year elections and no more than 2 terms per Prime Minister (and why not per MP) seem to provide better chances of better representation and governments that can do something. Of course as all politicians these days are career politicians, having never had a real job, they will be against it and we will have 5-6 year elections and unlimited terms.
Can I say that compared to other boards this discussion has been mature and without backbiting and trolling - which is always a good thing! :D
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Also, to have such a change in our country would be a bit hard / weird
In the US they have the consitution, so everything is entrenched or enshrined, or codified (yes, using these words makes you get extra browny points) so if something is to be changed, it can be written down in one place.
Whereas I do believe that we do not have one central document that says what we can and can't do. eg. bear arms, arm bears, and all points in between (oh, examples are extra browny points too)
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Of course as all politicians these days are career politicians, having never had a real job, they will be against it and we will have 5-6 year elections and unlimited terms.
True, and I think the fact that most of our politicians nowadays are career politicians is a big part of the problem. They may (or may not) start with genuine ideals and good intentions but they don't know anything about the real world.
Many of them have never - at least in their working lives - used public transport, or experienced the NHS, or sent their kids to state schools (and that includes the Labour ones!). And at the other end of the scale, they've never had to run a business or be genuinely accountable for their day-to-day decisions. As a result of all that, they think they can solve problems by throwing money at them - and they judge "success" by small changes in percentages and statistics.
If you took Cameron, Clegg and the Blair of 10 years ago there's almost no difference between them - they even look similar!
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Of course as all politicians these days are career politicians, having never had a real job, they will be against it and we will have 5-6 year elections and unlimited terms.
True, and I think the fact that most of our politicians nowadays are career politicians is a big part of the problem. They may (or may not) start with genuine ideals and good intentions but they don't know anything about the real world.
Many of them have never - at least in their working lives - used public transport, or experienced the NHS, or sent their kids to state schools (and that includes the Labour ones!). And at the other end of the scale, they've never had to run a business or be genuinely accountable for their day-to-day decisions. As a result of all that, they think they can solve problems by throwing money at them - and they judge "success" by small changes in percentages and statistics.
If you took Cameron, Clegg and the Blair of 10 years ago there's almost no difference between them - they even look similar!
^ what they said :lol:
you've also got to bear in mind that most MPs will just toe the party line and vote the way they're supposed to otherwise they'll be having to explain their position to the whips - most MPs are just used to their all-expenses-paid London digs, expense-account travel and a pay packet that funds the day-long lash up's in one of the many bars inside parliment.
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[
EDIT: what i don't understand is why people say "oh, labour aren't left-wing enough any more, i'm going to vote tory..."
:?
why not vote lib dem? there must be 40 million people in this country saying, "you know, if it weren't a wasted vote, i'd vote for the lib dems..."
:evil:
+100000000
I am tired of the pendulum of either Labour or Conservatives but never any other party.
One party wants to tax the poor and give the money to the rich and the other wants to tax everyone and give the money to foriegners
I'm no longer sure which party does which but I know that I want NEITHER
Absolutely agree. From a POLICY point of view, Lib Dem seems to be more socially aware than New Labour at the moment. And the "wasted vote" comment gets me every time! I think that it's a line perpetutated by the other parties...
But isn't it just the same old same old? Power corrupts, ultimate power corrupts ultimately? I was very happy in 1997 for many reasons (meeting my wife for the first time, Tories being kicked out, a rejuvinated Labour party gaining power after nearly 20 years in the wilderness...) But that all ends when you realise that these people are just PEOPLE, just like us, with their own weaknesses and dark sides, their own agendas and side-politics.
I think that political parties just get tired of power and start f**king up. The Tories were REALLY cr@p for about 10 years before we got rid of them.
Maybe it IS time for a change? And I say that as something of a middle-leftie...
Mark.
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Of course as all politicians these days are career politicians, having never had a real job, they will be against it and we will have 5-6 year elections and unlimited terms.
yeah it really doesn't help that the only people with the power to change dirty politics are the politicians...
Also, to have such a change in our country would be a bit hard / weird
In the US they have the consitution, so everything is entrenched or enshrined, or codified (yes, using these words makes you get extra browny points) so if something is to be changed, it can be written down in one place.
Whereas I do believe that we do not have one central document that says what we can and can't do. eg. bear arms, arm bears, and all points in between (oh, examples are extra browny points too)
to play devil's advocate, though, the problem with a constitution (at least the way it is in the states), a lot of people think something is good or bad based on whether it's consitutional or not, and not on its own merits.
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I was pro-PR, but recently, looking at italy especially, it just doesn't work. No government EVER gets the majority, and you end up with parties like BNP, UKIP, and god knows what else getting into power because Labour and Conservative need an extra 5-10% to form a winnig coalition.
Equally, first past the post is undemocratic - labour have a majority of 66 seats, so basically, all it takes is for the few hundred thousand (tops) people in the 34 most marginal seats to swing an election.
Obviously, anarchy is a no go (just look at 4chan)
Personally, I'd have a skeletal constitution, guarding freedom of speech, among other things, an elected "supreme court" and a dictator for life. Media influence over politics would be crushed, we could actually get stuff done without reams of re-reading and red tape.
Regards both low turnout and Johnny's "worst government ever" comment, i'd say the reason no-one votes is for the most part (at least at the last election), we're pretty happy. Sure, there was the Iraq war, Cash for honours, Blair vs. Brown, but really, who was directly affected by any of this? Labour stayed in due to mutual dislike for tories, but really, nothing massively radical has happened in politics for years, there's been no need. No matter who you vote for, they're going to tinker at the edges and no more. Turnout will rise when politics begins to affect what they really care about, and that's number one, and more specifically, number one's money.
The credit crisis will see Cameron and co in come 2010, if nothing else.