Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Scotty477 on May 04, 2008, 03:52:48 PM
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I've spent 4 hours yesterday and 3 hours today trying to get a decent sound recorded of my LP through a Marshall TSL601, using an SM57 and a Boss BR-900CD and it's been the most annoying 7 hours that I can recall.
No matter what I do I can't record what I'm hearing with my ears. I understand placement of the mike is crucial but I think I've tried just about everywhere, with no joy.
I'm basically looking for a bit of advice on amp recording with a mike. I had a lot more fun using a multi effect unit direct into my digi recorder - and better results.
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The SM57 is SHURE isn't it?
If that's the case then you may just have the wrong microphone as SHURE mics are still made to their original spec and the technology has improved significantly since then with the wide availability of neodymium magnetic elements for example.
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I guess you need a good pre-amp.That's key.
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I guess you need a good pre-amp.That's key.
A good preamp ... as in the unit I'm recording to?
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Only getting this off Google for you Machinehead, I hope it helps somewhat maybe:
"A weak signal produced by a microphone or camera pickup device may need to be strengthened by a preamplifier before they can be used."
More likely what you're recording from, not to.
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Have a look at this youtube video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUIxxmykEz0 some good advice here.
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I have a dsl100 which is similar to your amp, and I found that with the stock speakers that were in my cab (G12T-75's) it was almost impossible to get a decent recorded tone. So perhaps a change of speaker could help. Mic placement can also take a long while to get right, I have had many days where I have gotten really frustrated trying to get a decent recorded tone, seemingly trying every possible mic position with no success. I find that placing the mic at a slight angle towards the outside of the speaker with the mic touching the grill cloth works best for me, so maybe try that. However changing the speakers in my cab really did improve the tone a hell of a lot in person and when recorded, so maybe that would be your best bet.
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The Boss unit will be fine for recording, what you have to keep in mind is that the ears and the brain processing is very complex and a mic will never capture what we 'hear'. The speakers can make a huge difference as will the mic - obviously the SM57 is an industry standard so you won't go too far wrong with it.
Try and define what it is that is wrong with the sound - too thin, too 'distant'...once you can work out what you don't like you can try and get a fix for it.
Hope this helps.
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The SM57 is SHURE isn't it?
If that's the case then you may just have the wrong microphone as SHURE mics are still made to their original spec and the technology has improved significantly since then with the wide availability of neodymium magnetic elements for example.
A 57 or 58 is fine for the job.
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Is it a genuine SM57?
I just bought one from the Amazon marketplace and it's a fake (and being returned). It sounds awful, I'm hopeful of a better tone once I've got a genuine unit.
If you bought it secondhand check this article:
http://www.tts.se/UserFiles/File/FalskaShure-mikrofoner.pdf
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Are you turning gain down, maxing mids, and double tracking?
If you aren't, then its going to be hard to get a really good tone. To capture that sound you hear in the room, you have to actually change what you are hearing to get it to disk, your ears aren't the same as a microphone, and do you have your ear right next to the speaker every time you play?
I always record with gain about 30% less, if not closer to 50% less than I usually use, absolutely crank the mids if they aren't already, and do about 4 tracks of guitar (two panned left, two panned right, to make it sound like two guitarists).
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Interesting read about the SM57 fakes... I'd NEVER have noticed, certainly not from the visual aspect.
Mark.
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Yes it is.
EXCEPT when you FINALLY get a tone that you like. Then its AWESOME.
Then the MOST annoying part, by FAR
Losing it and trying to find it again.
All it takes is bumping the mic, or one of your (at the time they will be) dickhead mates coming round and $%&#ing with your settings.
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Yes it is.
EXCEPT when you FINALLY get a tone that you like. Then its AWESOME.
Then the MOST annoying part, by FAR
Losing it and trying to find it again.
All it takes is bumping the mic, or one of your (at the time they will be) dickhead mates coming round and #$%!& with your settings.
Yep. Mic positioning is the most frustrating thing I've done with recording. I suppose it doesnt help that I dont have a proper mic stand tho :lol: :oops:
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For me it's always easy peasy, like 2 minutes playing with an SM57 and checking with a headphone connected to my mixer and I'm done. Usually between cone and border of the speaker, on axis, like 3-4 inches away from the cab.
Maybe I am just lucky that my Mackie mixer's preamps are really good and that's why it has the punch and the depth ...
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For me it's always easy peasy, like 2 minutes playing with an SM57 and checking with a headphone connected to my mixer and I'm done. Usually between cone and border of the speaker, on axis, like 3-4 inches away from the cab.
Maybe I am just lucky that my Mackie mixer's preamps are really good and that's why it has the punch and the depth ...
I'm with you Hunter. I never seem to have much of a problem. Just whack the mic, on axis, up about 1cm from the grill cloth, half way between the centre and the edge of the speaker. If I want more depth and grunt, I'll move the mic towards the edge of the speaker. If I want more sparkle and brightness, I'll move it towards the centre of the speaker.
I use "cheap as chips" Behringer mixing desk pre-amps too.
Maybe it' s because I (we ?) don't use too much gain to start with, and use mid-heavy speakers. That certainly describes me for sure.
Sorry Machniehead, that doesn't help you much. But it may suggest that your speakers may not be the best for mic'ing.
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I dont always use much gain either and have good speakers (G12H which I think hunter uses, or used to use) as well, so I guess its all in the preamp. Think I will be getting an EMU 0404 usb to use with my SM57 if I can find a job for the summer. Dont know if the E-MU have good preamps or not, but MDV likes his from what I can tell.
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Interesting read about the SM57 fakes... I'd NEVER have noticed, certainly not from the visual aspect.
Mark.
I got suspicious when I couldn't get a decent recording level from the mic, I had to turn up the mic level almost to full (I have an E-MU 0404, purchased on Mark's previous recomendation), and even then the sound was thin and weedy. I was using my LP with Nailbombs, through the TT and it's V30 cab, and I had it a loud volumes for room playing and still the recording came back wimpy. I know the gear has a reasonable reputation so I started to think something was up. A little research and I found out there are a LOT of Shure fakes out there. I've ordered a new unit from Dolphin, so hopefully that will be the real deal :)
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Maybe I am just lucky that my Mackie mixer's preamps are really good and that's why it has the punch and the depth ...
No doubt,Hunter.A good preamp ... as in the unit I'm recording to?
. I couldn't get a decent guitar tone with my Yamaha 16 tracks (XG16 ?) until i got a good pre-amp ,a SPL Gold Mike.The pre-amps used in these recorders are very weak and cheap,so you have to buy an external pre-amp to put between your mic and your recorder.Some are very expensive but even a rather cheap one will help tremendously.Look at PreSonus for ex. and try it for a few days .It's logical if you think about it:there is a multitrack recorder and a built-in mixing desk +mic,everything in the same package for a very small price.They couldn't give you 8 good pre-amps for that price,too expensive,so,the best thing to do is to buy a single (stereo if possible)good quality pre-amp ,esp. for accoustic instruments !Good luck!
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The best way to get the tone you're after when miking up a cab, is to have a friend :) Get him (or her) to play your guitar in the same style as you, while you have some headphones on, and move the mic around until you get the sound you're after- don't worry about what is traditional, ie. off/on axis, just move it until you're happy- it could happen to be in front of the speaker, it could be 2 feet in front of the cab, it could be out to the side.... use your ears, not your eyes for miking :) As others have said, turn the gain down, and the mids up a bit (if you normally scoop), it'll stop that nasty fizzy tone that you get with lots of gain.
You may want to try using two mics to try and capture the sound- a 57 is a good starting point, but try and find a mic that has more mids/lows- the 57 is a fairly bright mic. Not saying that it has no lows, but pairing it with another mic can do wonders for your sound :)
And finally preamps- get a couple of decent ones, lower end mixers will have cheaper pre's, so get an outboard preamp, and run it line-in to the desk. Don't use EQ or compression on the way into the computer (or whatever you record to), apply it when you're mixing :)
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I agree with the preamp comments, they are a very important and undervalued part of the singnal chain. I use a TLA audio fatman for everything I record and it sounds way better that straight into a multi tracker. It was about £200 5 or 6 years ago but has added something to every recording I've ever done and therefore a good investment.
That said, there are so many other factors involved..speakes, room sound, listening position.
You could try a condenser mic positioned from where you are hearing it sound good and see how that goes, or even two to simulate your ears :lol:
SM57's are an industry standard and I love em, but they colour the sound a lot, really flatter the mids for rock but are not too subtle. Some condenser mics with higher SP level capabilities may give you a closer sounds to what you are hearing.
The best method is trial and error, mainly error for myself though!
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Very good advice guys and I'm really, really grateful for all the help.
The problem would certainly appear to be a weak preamp on the Boss recorder. I was having to turn up the input level way too high and it still sounded underpowered.
The SM57 I'm using was bought from a large retailer (Guitar Guitar) so I'm pretty sure it's genuine.
I have a choice to make here. Do I persevere with experimenting in recording amps or stick to using multi effect unit modelling ....
Time is scarce for me to do miked recording - really only at the weekend and the odd few hours during the week that I can steal from the wife and kids :wink: - so I don't want to spend hours hunting for the right mike position.
I really should have done a lot more research on this subject but I honestly thought that I would be able to get it going after a bit of trial and error with the mike position.
I'll take a few days to think about what I'm going to do.
The truly annoying this is that I like the amp tone - particularly the OD2 lead channel for solo's. I've been searching for this type of solo sound for years.
Something will however have to give and I have a sneaky suslicion that I may return to my GT-6 and Tonelab LE and stick with them.
That is, until the GAS for an amp hits me again .... :wink:
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Is it a genuine SM57?
I just bought one from the Amazon marketplace and it's a fake (and being returned). It sounds awful, I'm hopeful of a better tone once I've got a genuine unit.
If you bought it secondhand check this article:
http://www.tts.se/UserFiles/File/FalskaShure-mikrofoner.pdf
That's an excellent article.
I had a good look at my SM57 (and box etc) and mine appears to be genuine, as far as I can tell.
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I am in a simaler situation to you, I use a line 6 guitar port for all my recordings but I am looking into buying an amp for my living room but not for recording. I understand your frustration from recording sessions with previous bands. I always found that guitars only sounded good when they were cranked and I think that might be the prob. Can you really get the sound you are after in a domestic setting? If your happy with recording with your tone lab then why change? Most studios/bands nowadays use some form of amp moddeling to get their sound when recording, it's easier and more versatile.
I am going to get a Laney Lionheart but I have no intention of recording with it because I know if I dont have the right equipment and a good recording enviroment I am never going to get the sound I hear, on a recording.
This is just my opinion based on personel experience and is in no way based on any facts or technical knowledge.
Hope some of this makes sense, its still early. :lol: 8)
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I have a choice to make here. Do I persevere with experimenting in recording amps or stick to using multi effect unit modelling ....
You just cannot beat using modellers for home recording, especially when, like me, your main opportunities for recording are when others in the house are asleep.
Personally, I only record amps when I am recording a final mix of a song, or actually wanting to demo the amp. For all demo recordings and fiddling about, recording silently is definately a huge bonus.
Keep the amp, for what you like about it. It will also be a huge benefit when you play with a band. Get a cheap pre-amp, like this http://www.dv247.com/invt/9212/ , and you may find your amp recordings improve too. I have one of those pre-amps, and they are sturdy, and noticeably better quality than cheapo SS ones. Personally, I still find my cheapo SS ones fine, but if you are struggling, it's not too much money to spend to experiment a little bit.
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I've never mics anything but I read on the andy sneap forum that sm57s have high impedance (or was it low impedance) so the preamp does make a difference (I think)
can someone verify that I'm not talking rubbish please :)
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Not the cheapest solution but an Axetrack might be an option. No need to worry about mic position as it's built in and you should be able to use without waking the kids.
I've not used one though so not sure about sound leakage....
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I recommend the book 'The Recording Engineers Handbook' by Bobby Owinski. It's THE best book I have read on guitar micking techniques. It makes you realise just how many ways are possible and it will open your mind so much. I recommend trying an SM57 angled 45 degrees off axis pointing toward the central speaker bell, at around 3/4 from the exact centre, this should get you 95 percent of the way there.
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I recommend this if you can afford it!
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/35685/a/r/e/base
this is actually a proffessional quality desk, and is worth every penny.
This one is even more affordable:
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/35683/a/r/e/base
I've orderd the top one, so will let you know what it's like when I get it.
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Mackie units are excellent value for money - I have a 1402...but I also now have a TLA 5050 pre-amp/compressor which is of course better - but it is specialised for one/two jobs. The sound you get back from your speakers is entirely dependant on everything in the signal chain - whatever is your weakest link will limit it quite severely.
For my money you should go with a modeller, or get a speaker simulator (a decent one will give you better results). If you dont have the capabilities to play a valve amp with the wick up in a decent room then you will probably be dissapointed with the results you get, so if it's a hobby, get recording, learn your craft of song writing and production, then worry about micing up :)
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Decision made.
I'm going to stay clear of amp recording for the time being. It's more to do with the time element really. I thought I could get away with just doing the miked up recording at the weekend but with the best will in the world that's not the best way to go.
Thanks for all the advice on amp recording. I may well use that advice later on sometime.
Anyway ... It's Gumtree here I come - or ebay as a last resort - for my TSL601. I don't have the space for 2 amps at the moment.
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I've had a rethink. I'm liking the sound of the TSL601 - a lot, so I'm looking at preamps.
I'll also need one for miked up acoustic and vocals as well obviously. I've had a scout about and there are a few about that fit my budget, like this one:
(http://www.hardtofindrecordsrecordstore.com/htfrimages/BMR194712.jpg)
I suppose my question is does anyone use one of these?
I'll also be looking at the preamps suggested earlier in this thread as well.[/img]
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I've used the Behringer MIC100 quite a bit, which is very similar to the one you pictured (probably built in the same factory I suspect). Not a bad piece of kit at all, IMO. Quiet, accurate and warm reproduction of the original signal. By "quiet", I mean, not hissy, hummy or crackly. The unit is definately not quiet, in that it gives a very hefty gain boost
I'd be wary of using the "voicing" control on the one you picture. I'm sure it's just a cheap EQing device. Set it at "flat" and I'm sure it will be fine though. You might even find the voicing control useful, who knows.
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Although I would advocate a good preamp, you will still be going through the boss inputs, so you could get a fantastic preamp but the sound will still be limited by the boss preamp.
When you say you had to have the gain really high and it still seemed weedy... were you getting a good level into the boss unit? meters should be just shy of red zone.
Have you tried vocals and acoustic into it? how do they sound?
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Thats a good point Kev. I'll take a look at a vovals and acoustic tomorrow.
I was getting a good level in, just shy of the red and it sounded like a very weak signal, very hissy etc.
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I tried out my (genuine this time) SM57 last night (into an E-Mu 0404), and got some decent results. Tonally it sounded different to what I was hearing direct from the amp but I was expecting that, no way is a sound passing through a mic, pre-amp, PC, stereo amp, stereo speakers and coming out unchanged :)
The SM57 didn't sound weak and feeble to me (compared to the fake) it was a little light on the bass and treble's but that could also have been my stereo, so I need to do some checking on that. Could that be your issue? What are you using for playback?
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I tried out my (genuine this time) SM57 last night (into an E-Mu 0404), and got some decent results. Tonally it sounded different to what I was hearing direct from the amp but I was expecting that, no way is a sound passing through a mic, pre-amp, PC, stereo amp, stereo speakers and coming out unchanged :)
The SM57 didn't sound weak and feeble to me (compared to the fake) it was a little light on the bass and treble's but that could also have been my stereo, so I need to do some checking on that. Could that be your issue? What are you using for playback?
You'r right Rich. You can never expect to hear through a single miked recording what you are hearing with your ears in the room. Mic position can change everything. Remember, to add bass, move the mic towards the rim of the speaker (or angle it that way). To add treble, move towards the centre. Also experiment with distance of the mic away from the grill. Start right close up, almost touching, then do some takes, moving the mic away a couple of inches each time. You will hear differences.
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Are there any articles on other shure mic being fakes?
I want to check my 58A Beta
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Cheers for that Alan, I shall be playing with it some more today I'm sure.
adammato:
If you look at one of my previous posts on this thread I've linked to an article about the fake SM57's. I'm pretty sure I came across references to the 58's as well when I was google'ing. Simple answer, buy new from a retailer, I used Dolphin in the end. Shure seem to retain their re-sale value on eBay and Amazon marketplace, so for the small saving you may as well buy new and know it's the real deal, and you get a warranty.
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There are tons of fake Shures around seemingly. One of my mates bought one for £37.00 and was pretty cheesed off to find his bargain was a dud.I don't know where he got it from yet though. I'd be inclined to buy from a reputable dealer. An SM57 should always give you a good recording source. As has been said, there are many newer designs that are probably better these days but they were and are still widely used and I have seen them used in many studios in my time.
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Cheers man, i had a quick look through google like.
Looked on the shure site, it says it should be 227 grams. I'll check that first of all
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Ok ... I haven't got a preamp yet but what I did today was to compare my TSL601 side by side with my Vox AD30VT.
You might think "what's the point in that?", and you may have a point but I did it to satisfy myself that the TSL601 was worth keeping and to see just how much of a difference there was tonally.
The result - in my opinion - was a straight win in every aspect for the Marshall, which you might expect but it was the margin of the difference that staggered me.
The TSL601 made the AD30VT sound like a toy amp - and you have to remember I bought the AD30VT because I thought it sounded alright at the time.
The point of my rambling is that I'm keeping the TSL and I'll persevere with trying to record it, once I get a preamp. I do however need advice on swapping out the speaker to make it more recording friendly.
The stock Celestion Wolverine speaker is almost universally panned by users and given my newbishness with tube amps, I'm not going to argue with that (although it sounds good to my ears, with my LP/Emerald combination :D )
So .... What speaker would you put in a TSL601, if you wanted a classic rock, with a bit of blues type tone? From the research I've done, possibly a Celestion G12H might do the trick, but I'm open to suggestions.
One last thing. Where would I source a new Marshall grill cloth for the amp? Marshall don't seem to stock any and it's just 2x12 or 4x12 cab cloths on ebay that I've seen.
Cheers
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I'm not familiar with the TSL601, so take my advice for what it's worth... I do have a Laney Lionheart with a cab loaded with G12Hs, though, and they're definitely excellent speakers. How they'll mesh with your amp is another matter, but I would take the risk :D
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Yeah the G12H looks like a safe bet. Not a bad price either.
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If you do get the Art preamp or even behringer, replace the tube with a JJ Tesla one, and they sound amazing.
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If you do get the Art preamp or even behringer, replace the tube with a JJ Tesla one, and they sound amazing.
I'll do that, cheers.
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Hi Fella
For comparison I previoulsy posted recordings of my G12H and G75 in my JCM800 using a shure 57 in a normal room at reasonable volume..so should give you an idea what you should be getting without too much hassle :)
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9771&highlight=g12h
Hope this helps.
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Thanks Kev but I can't get the link for the clips to work?
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that's curious ... I've just clicked through and it worked ok. I will see if I can PM them to you...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUIxxmykEz0&feature=related
A video on mic placement
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Strange that someone would go to all the trouble of faking a Sure 57, one of the least expensive pro mics out there. I mean they cost around 100 Euros/80 of your, 'ow you zay, Engleesh Quids. I can see the point in faking a a Neuman U47 but a 80 quid Sure mike?
Reminds me of the fake Oktava scandal.
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Strange that someone would go to all the trouble of faking a Sure 57, one of the least expensive pro mics out there. I mean they cost around 100 Euros/80 of your, 'ow you zay, Engleesh Quids. I can see the point in faking a a Neuman U47 but a 80 quid Sure mike?
Reminds me of the fake Oktava scandal.
2 things I think answer your (good) point.
1) Shure sell a LOT of mics, so the fakers know they will have a good chance of shifting the goods.
2) You can fake a Shure for around $1 (about 60p), sell it for £45 (in my case) as a used item, that's a 7500% mark up. Not a bad profit margin, and you are unlikely to pay tax.
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I read an interesting article with (producer) Chris Tsangarides who was talking about old ribbon mics and said that this new one is the mutts nuts for guitar recording
(http://images4.thomann.de/pics/prod/180190.jpg)
And it's cheap !
http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_rm700.htm
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Strange that someone would go to all the trouble of faking a Sure 57, one of the least expensive pro mics out there. I mean they cost around 100 Euros/80 of your, 'ow you zay, Engleesh Quids. I can see the point in faking a a Neuman U47 but a 80 quid Sure mike?
Reminds me of the fake Oktava scandal.
2 things I think answer your (good) point.
1) Shure sell a LOT of mics, so the fakers know they will have a good chance of shifting the goods.
2) You can fake a Shure for around $1 (about 60p), sell it for £45 (in my case) as a used item, that's a 7500% mark up. Not a bad profit margin, and you are unlikely to pay tax.
It's also cheap enough that a lot of people wont even chase you over it.
Also, once someone realises, it's not that hard to go buy a real one from a shop and return it later with the fake one inside, 90% of staff in shops wont be able to tell the difference. So you've been done over, but you'll still get a real mic eventually and the fakers still get away with it.
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I read an interesting article with (producer) Chris Tsangarides who was talking about old ribbon mics and said that this new one is the mutts nuts for guitar recording
And it's cheap !
http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_rm700.htm
That is some deal, even includes shockmount...has to be worth a punt if you're after a mic... how to smeak one into country without my better half knowing...that's the question! :?
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I read an interesting article with (producer) Chris Tsangarides who was talking about old ribbon mics and said that this new one is the mutts nuts for guitar recording
(http://images4.thomann.de/pics/prod/180190.jpg)
And it's cheap !
http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_rm700.htm
For those with a factor of 10 more money, the Royer R121 ribbon is a great mic to pair with a SM57- really nice sound with both mics on a cab :)
(http://www.magicaudio.com/ecatalog/r121big.jpg)