Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: robharries13 on May 05, 2008, 07:34:54 PM

Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: robharries13 on May 05, 2008, 07:34:54 PM
hi everyone on these forums   :)

my situation is this:

i have been playing guitar for about 3-4 years now, and ive always rested the underside of my forearm and wrist on the body of my guitar (a fender strat). recently ive been trying to increase my speed, learning classic shred. you know, "eruption" and the like. i was have little or no success, so i reasearched on the net to see if my technique was wrong. i discovered on a few sites that it is not recommended to rest any part of your picking hand or arm on the guitar. is this true? if this is the case, am i right in thinking that you have to hover your picking arm over the guitar body without making any contact?

sorry to sound real trivial and like an unintelligent beginner. its just that im self taught, and ive never had someone to correct my "mistake". i guess thats why im here.  :(

many thanks to anyone who can help me. much appreciated
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: Woogie on May 05, 2008, 07:50:13 PM
I play with hand resting on bridge most of the time.
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: robharries13 on May 05, 2008, 07:52:45 PM
thanks for the fast reply woogie :) ill give it a go
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: noodleplugerine on May 05, 2008, 07:56:40 PM
Resting your forearm on the guitar is pretty standard.

Resting your wrist on the guitar I find completely perplexing. Just tried, and I couldn't reach the strings - But then again, I'm playing on a TOM.
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: Will on May 05, 2008, 07:59:44 PM
What do you mean by resting?
If they are anchored there, it is probably a bit limiting, but there is no reason why having it resting there would be bad.

I generally have my outside palm on TOM bridge so I can move forward for string dampening / PMing etc
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: robharries13 on May 05, 2008, 08:08:32 PM
i just find that when my forearm rests on the body, i find my picking hand hitting the other open strings on the guitar, totally destroying any clarity.
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: maverickf1jockey on May 05, 2008, 08:10:47 PM
Basically I'd say that your hand position improves with practice using a metronome so I shouldn't worry about it just working on it. Michael Angelo Batio's right hand barely moves bar his thumb and forefinger but you'd be hard pressed to find a better picker despite the awkwardness of his hand positioning.
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: robharries13 on May 05, 2008, 08:24:18 PM
this is the sort of thing ive been finding. i just had this response from another forum:

"More important is to keep your picking hand "hovering" and not touching the guitar, unless technique, (like palm muting,) demands it. If you ground your hand, you will lose some natural motion that greatly contributes to speed."

ugh, im so confused :cry:
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: Jonny on May 05, 2008, 08:29:28 PM
I have the bottom of my hand, just before the wrist joint resting on the bridge, which is a Floyd Rose. And have it angled so my pink finger is somewhere near the bridge pickup.

If I play any higher than the 12th fret and on the thinner strings, my hand slides down and off the bridge and my last two fingers usually hold onto the 6th string if I'm not playing, when I am, they're anchoring my hand where the grove in my guitar is. It's only in my guitar though.

Other than that, welcome.
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: noodleplugerine on May 05, 2008, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: maverickf1jockey
Basically I'd say that your hand position improves with practice using a metronome so I shouldn't worry about it just working on it. Michael Angelo Batio's right hand barely moves bar his thumb and forefinger but you'd be hard pressed to find a better picker despite the awkwardness of his hand positioning.


Check this vid from Shawn Lane:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=57q5zdvMw58

Forearm very much hugging the body of the Charvel.

And this vid from Rusty (Far better technique than MAB imo)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sUGYxDOBupg

Lots of bridge hugging - Get comfortable, and then do what feels right to you.

There's no right and wrong way.
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: maverickf1jockey on May 05, 2008, 08:30:50 PM
I'd say that you should mute the strings below (musically) the one's you are playing with the picking hand and to mute the ones above with the fretting hand.

To say you have to 'hover' is misleading as you need to stop unwanted noise to have a clean technique, conductive of fast playing, by muting.

I'd also say that it's a good idea to have a different pick attack for chords and for single notes.
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: maverickf1jockey on May 05, 2008, 08:33:21 PM
Quote from: noodleplugerine
Quote from: maverickf1jockey
Basically I'd say that your hand position improves with practice using a metronome so I shouldn't worry about it just working on it. Michael Angelo Batio's right hand barely moves bar his thumb and forefinger but you'd be hard pressed to find a better picker despite the awkwardness of his hand positioning.


Check this vid from Shawn Lane:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=57q5zdvMw58

Forearm very much hugging the body of the Charvel.

And this vid from Rusty (Far better technique than MAB imo)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sUGYxDOBupg

Lots of bridge hugging - Get comfortable, and then do what feels right to you.

There's no right and wrong way.
Almost paraphrasing me I think (and with better explanation so fair do's) ...
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: Jonny on May 05, 2008, 08:37:12 PM
Quote from: noodleplugerine
..do what feels right to you.

There's no right and wrong way.

That is ultimately the best advice.

If you start off slow, you can notice what your hand is doing and when you want to speed up (and I don't mean play a lick, just speed up your picking) and if it's not working you can notice more easily what you're doing wrong FOR YOU. It might be perfectly comfortable for someone else to do what isn't comfortable for you.

It's really a long term thing. You'll get there. :)
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: robharries13 on May 05, 2008, 08:41:21 PM
thanks for all your help guys  :D
i feel all inspired now  8)
much appreciated to all of you
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: samoth2 on May 05, 2008, 09:29:34 PM
Just some quick things to consider
Economy of motion
Shoulders parallel
Stay relaxed
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: Catalyst77 on May 05, 2008, 09:39:34 PM
Hmm, interesting I kind of have the same issues.

I always rest my pinky and third finger on the guitar between the two humbuckers about an inch from the top e - trying to learn to play differently now (after 12 years) would be like starting over!
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: adamj on May 06, 2008, 12:15:51 AM
i have a slightly different techinique which works wonders for me. i "hover" above the strings, but i anchor with my pinky touching where my sscratchplate would be, if i had one. allows for free moevement but sitll a reference point as to be able to pick the right string coming up next :) of course it can always change, kind of depends what you need to do
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: gingataff on May 06, 2008, 03:29:41 AM
Check out the videos on this page (http://www.troygrady.com/players.php) that Troy Grady has been making for his shred analysing film "Cracking the code", you can see some close up and slowed down picking techniques of great guitarists.
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: silentrage on May 06, 2008, 06:07:50 AM
I have a hard time relaxing my right shoulder when attempting to pick fast, or even when my left hand gets into an awkward or stretching position, my right shoulder automatically tense up,
how do you guys manage to relax when playing fast?
and how important is this to being able to shred?
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: JDC on May 06, 2008, 02:26:51 PM
for me the secret to picking fast is to pick light, personally I use thick picks and tight string and expose as little pick as possible

when my technique was rubbish I'd pick hard when playing slow and pick light when fast, now I pick light when playing slow and fast, picking hard with distortion doesn't make much difference to the sound since there is compression caused by the distortion (I think)

I also anchor myself with the pinky and mute the strings above with my palm, I used to practice scales a lot and do exercises 1 and 2 and variations of them from michael angelo's speed kills

anyway practice makes perfect, keep going and you'll be hitting 16th notes at 200bpm in no time
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: MrBump on May 06, 2008, 04:10:09 PM
I think that it also depends on the guitar.

My Charvel has the bridge very close to the top of the body - this means that I can anchor my whole arm to the guitar and only move my wrist for generating fast flurries of notes (a technique I acquired as a lonely 13 year old boy...)

But on an LP I struggle with that, because the bridge is usually quite raised.

Again, it's one of these infuriating "if it works, use it" things. I've seen old school fast players using their elbows, keeping their wrists virtually static.  I don't think that's what the younger, more schooled players would recommend...

Mark.
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: Muzzzz on May 07, 2008, 08:51:15 AM
JDC's advice is very good... if you pick slowly, its probably because you aren't picking close enough to the tip of the pick. The closer to the tip up pick, the less resistance there is.

it worked for me with sextuplets at 160bpm (pre-RSI. but dont worry, its not a harmful technique. the RSI was piano related, not guitar related!)
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: robharries13 on May 07, 2008, 09:34:21 PM
just got myself a guitar tutor, so hopefully he'll be able to continue where you guys have started. thanks for all your help  :D
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: JDC on May 09, 2008, 08:48:27 PM
Quote from: Muzzzz
JDC's advice is very good... if you pick slowly, its probably because you aren't picking close enough to the tip of the pick. The closer to the tip up pick, the less resistance there is.

it worked for me with sextuplets at 160bpm (pre-RSI. but dont worry, its not a harmful technique. the RSI was piano related, not guitar related!)


what's that in 16ths?

was checking my speed earlier and I managed 16th at 240bpm doing my usual up the neck scale alexi laiho type stuff, was a tiny bit sloppy and a bit arm spazzy though, I'm sure jeff waters is faster than me

ps I can't unison bend for shite!!! :)
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: samoth2 on May 09, 2008, 09:56:14 PM
Quote from: JDC
Quote from: Muzzzz
JDC's advice is very good... if you pick slowly, its probably because you aren't picking close enough to the tip of the pick. The closer to the tip up pick, the less resistance there is.

it worked for me with sextuplets at 160bpm (pre-RSI. but dont worry, its not a harmful technique. the RSI was piano related, not guitar related!)


what's that in 16ths?

was checking my speed earlier and I managed 16th at 240bpm doing my usual up the neck scale alexi laiho type stuff, was a tiny bit sloppy and a bit arm spazzy though, I'm sure jeff waters is faster than me

ps I can't unison bend for shitee!!! :)


My math says 240bpm  :)
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: Muzzzz on May 11, 2008, 08:50:55 AM
Quote from: samoth2
Quote from: JDC
Quote from: Muzzzz
JDC's advice is very good... if you pick slowly, its probably because you aren't picking close enough to the tip of the pick. The closer to the tip up pick, the less resistance there is.

it worked for me with sextuplets at 160bpm (pre-RSI. but dont worry, its not a harmful technique. the RSI was piano related, not guitar related!)


what's that in 16ths?

was checking my speed earlier and I managed 16th at 240bpm doing my usual up the neck scale alexi laiho type stuff, was a tiny bit sloppy and a bit arm spazzy though, I'm sure jeff waters is faster than me

ps I can't unison bend for shitee!!! :)


My math says 240bpm  :)


yep!

i started out with just a repeated 8-5-7-8-7-5 pattern, and once i got better at that i tried incorporating that into runs in scale shapes - like a dorian - up and down the strings and thats what i managed to get to sextuplets at 160bpm, but i'm pretty so-so with inside picking at that speed... yuk!
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: JDC on May 11, 2008, 02:36:39 PM
Quote from: Muzzzz
Quote from: samoth2
Quote from: JDC
Quote from: Muzzzz
JDC's advice is very good... if you pick slowly, its probably because you aren't picking close enough to the tip of the pick. The closer to the tip up pick, the less resistance there is.

it worked for me with sextuplets at 160bpm (pre-RSI. but dont worry, its not a harmful technique. the RSI was piano related, not guitar related!)


what's that in 16ths?

was checking my speed earlier and I managed 16th at 240bpm doing my usual up the neck scale alexi laiho type stuff, was a tiny bit sloppy and a bit arm spazzy though, I'm sure jeff waters is faster than me

ps I can't unison bend for shitee!!! :)


My math says 240bpm  :)


yep!

i started out with just a repeated 8-5-7-8-7-5 pattern, and once i got better at that i tried incorporating that into runs in scale shapes - like a dorian - up and down the strings and thats what i managed to get to sextuplets at 160bpm, but i'm pretty so-so with inside picking at that speed... yuk!


sounds similar to me, I started with exercise 1 of michael angelo's speed kills,

Code: [Select]
--------9-10-9--------
9-10-12--------12-10-9


then started doing my own variations, my ring finger needed catching up with my pinky at one point because I didn't use it enough, I've not got a clue about my inside picking speed

how thick/tight do you have your strings and how thick is your pick? I'm using 11.5-59 in C (bit tighter than average I'd say, probably something like 9.5-48 in E) with 3mm big stubbys (aka a 3mm jazz III more or less), I think rusty cooley uses lighter strings than me but picks closer to the bridge to get that extra tension for lighter picking
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: Muzzzz on May 12, 2008, 10:01:47 AM
Quote from: JDC
Quote from: Muzzzz
Quote from: samoth2
Quote from: JDC
Quote from: Muzzzz
JDC's advice is very good... if you pick slowly, its probably because you aren't picking close enough to the tip of the pick. The closer to the tip up pick, the less resistance there is.

it worked for me with sextuplets at 160bpm (pre-RSI. but dont worry, its not a harmful technique. the RSI was piano related, not guitar related!)


what's that in 16ths?

was checking my speed earlier and I managed 16th at 240bpm doing my usual up the neck scale alexi laiho type stuff, was a tiny bit sloppy and a bit arm spazzy though, I'm sure jeff waters is faster than me

ps I can't unison bend for shitee!!! :)


My math says 240bpm  :)


yep!

i started out with just a repeated 8-5-7-8-7-5 pattern, and once i got better at that i tried incorporating that into runs in scale shapes - like a dorian - up and down the strings and thats what i managed to get to sextuplets at 160bpm, but i'm pretty so-so with inside picking at that speed... yuk!


sounds similar to me, I started with exercise 1 of michael angelo's speed kills,

Code: [Select]
--------9-10-9--------
9-10-12--------12-10-9


then started doing my own variations, my ring finger needed catching up with my pinky at one point because I didn't use it enough, I've not got a clue about my inside picking speed

how thick/tight do you have your strings and how thick is your pick? I'm using 11.5-59 in C (bit tighter than average I'd say, probably something like 9.5-48 in E) with 3mm big stubbys (aka a 3mm jazz III more or less), I think rusty cooley uses lighter strings than me but picks closer to the bridge to get that extra tension for lighter picking


my inside picking speed - whilst still fairly cr@ppy - was starting to get better, but its always more difficult because there's more movement and much much higher chance of hitting strings you don't want to. (well, for me at least)

i like my picks thin as they can get before they get bendy - i usually fender mediums, but they're a little too pointy for my tastes so i usually take to them with a nail file to get them to just how i like them, which is fairly rounded. I just used 9s or 10s with standard tuning, but i think i get used to most guages fairly quickly, but tbh i've never really experimented with many other guages.
Title: picking hand help. please?
Post by: JDC on May 12, 2008, 05:18:35 PM
Quote from: Muzzzz
Quote from: JDC
Quote from: Muzzzz
Quote from: samoth2
Quote from: JDC
Quote from: Muzzzz
JDC's advice is very good... if you pick slowly, its probably because you aren't picking close enough to the tip of the pick. The closer to the tip up pick, the less resistance there is.

it worked for me with sextuplets at 160bpm (pre-RSI. but dont worry, its not a harmful technique. the RSI was piano related, not guitar related!)


what's that in 16ths?

was checking my speed earlier and I managed 16th at 240bpm doing my usual up the neck scale alexi laiho type stuff, was a tiny bit sloppy and a bit arm spazzy though, I'm sure jeff waters is faster than me

ps I can't unison bend for shitee!!! :)


My math says 240bpm  :)


yep!

i started out with just a repeated 8-5-7-8-7-5 pattern, and once i got better at that i tried incorporating that into runs in scale shapes - like a dorian - up and down the strings and thats what i managed to get to sextuplets at 160bpm, but i'm pretty so-so with inside picking at that speed... yuk!


sounds similar to me, I started with exercise 1 of michael angelo's speed kills,

Code: [Select]
--------9-10-9--------
9-10-12--------12-10-9


then started doing my own variations, my ring finger needed catching up with my pinky at one point because I didn't use it enough, I've not got a clue about my inside picking speed

how thick/tight do you have your strings and how thick is your pick? I'm using 11.5-59 in C (bit tighter than average I'd say, probably something like 9.5-48 in E) with 3mm big stubbys (aka a 3mm jazz III more or less), I think rusty cooley uses lighter strings than me but picks closer to the bridge to get that extra tension for lighter picking


my inside picking speed - whilst still fairly cr@ppy - was starting to get better, but its always more difficult because there's more movement and much much higher chance of hitting strings you don't want to. (well, for me at least)

i like my picks thin as they can get before they get bendy - i usually fender mediums, but they're a little too pointy for my tastes so i usually take to them with a nail file to get them to just how i like them, which is fairly rounded. I just used 9s or 10s with standard tuning, but i think i get used to most guages fairly quickly, but tbh i've never really experimented with many other guages.


so speed really doesn't have much relation to my string gauge and pick preference then, if I play a guitar with thin wounds I can really feel the slack and I don't feel in control, I used to slightly change gauges almost every time I put new string on, I think I've finally settled on gauges I want to stick with