Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: gwEm on May 20, 2008, 05:48:41 PM
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just interested... recently i've been corrected by a couple people for pronoucing 'luthier' not like the french word.
in the past i've said the word with the 'h' still intact. which is correct?
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Perhaps they are right as it could be related to the word 'lute' which is an instrument related to the modern guitar.
They may also be quite Irish; Luthiery becoming Lute-iery.
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i luth as in lex luther... not going to argue about what the right way to say it is though... just going to keep doing it!!!
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I've always pronounced it Loo-thee-er, how do the french make it sound? I'm assuming with my basic conversational french module that it'd be Looth-ee-ay
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loo-tee-ay, presumably.
i dunno how i pronounce it. :lol:
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As Dave MC says - To be correct it is a hard 't' sound not a 'th' sound in it as it relates to a maker of Lutes (i.e. the French pronounciation)- but in reality that is only for pedants and many guitar makers call themselves 'loof-i-ers' like the sponge things you wash your back with, except with an added 'i'.
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As Dave MC says - To be correct it is a hard 't' sound not a 'th' sound in it as it relates to a maker of Lutes (i.e. the French pronounciation)- but in reality that is only for pedants and many guitar makers call themselves 'loof-i-ers' like the sponge things you wash your back with, except with an added 'i'.
I can't believe that is the proper way for it to be said in English. After all, we don't say Restaurant like the French do, and that's one of their words! Off the top of my head, I can't think of any English word that uses a hard "t" when it's spelled "th", so why should this be an exception? There are probably some obvious ones I'm missing, though - it's late and I'm tired!
Roo
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Indeed, we are in England, lets speak in English!
Those around me have to understand what I mean when I want a croy-sant though.
(yes, I am actually serious :D )
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Indeed, we are in England, lets speak in English!
Those around me have to understand what I mean when I want a croy-sant though.
(yes, I am actually serious :D )
:lol: I used to call them cross-saints :?
Luthier is loo-thee-err as far as I'm concerned :)
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Am I the only one who pronounces it "Gi-Taa-Bill-Daa"?
:roll:
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ok, i'm not wrong then :)
i like gingataff's pronouciation ;)
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It seems we are pretty much all agreed then. "Loo-Thee-err" it is !
Just remember to be careful on your pronunciation when you're in need of a quick re-fret half way through that french tour you've always dreamt of.
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Did anybody here passed GCSE English? because your consensus is wrong.
Fortunately, language does not operate on a democratic basis to be decided by some greebo metal heads on a pickup website. It is pronounced loot-i-er - the Oxford English Dictionary, Collins Dictionary, Webster's Dictionary and every other dictionary says so (even the ministry of disinformation, i.e. Wikipedia).
Even online dictionaries get it right: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/luthier
Furthermore, it does not mean gee-tar-mak-er as the word applies to makers and repairs of all types of stringed instruments (but particularly the French instrument known as the 'luth').
Those of you who have failed, be ashamed and stay over in detention until you have copied all words begining luth- out of the dictionary. :D
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Did anybody here passed GCSE English? because your consensus is wrong.
:P
I got a B in both english GCSEs and I'm still cr@p at writing.
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Fortunately, language does not operate on a democratic basis to be decided by some greebo metal heads on a pickup website.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I agree - but in a sense it does operate on a democratic basis because "normal" pronunciation changes over time. The dictionary makers even change the meanings of words if enough people use them incorrectly for a long enough time :roll: .
I'm sure "loot-i-er" (or even "loo-tee-ay") is correct, but I still say "loo-thee-er". Init.
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Did anybody here passed GCSE English? because your consensus is wrong.
Fortunately, language does not operate on a democratic basis to be decided by some greebo metal heads on a pickup website. It is pronounced loot-i-er - the Oxford English Dictionary, Collins Dictionary, Webster's Dictionary and every other dictionary says so (even the ministry of disinformation, i.e. Wikipedia).
Even online dictionaries get it right: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/luthier
Furthermore, it does not mean gee-tar-mak-er as the word applies to makers and repairs of all types of stringed instruments (but particularly the French instrument known as the 'luth').
Those of you who have failed, be ashamed and stay over in detention until you have copied all words begining luth- out of the dictionary. :D
But dictionary definitions are affected by colloquialisms. The same goes for the pronunciation of certain words. The dictionaries you mentioned have limited space and so go for one single pronunciation to save space (For example biscuit is pronounced 'biskit' (the original English spelling) but the French pronunciation, from which the modern spelling is derived, is 'Biz-Kwee'.
Hundreds of years ago people spoke like Chaucer (without the rhyming couplets) but now they speak totally differently.
Luthier will be pronounced 'Loo-thee-er' in dictionaries to come as it is the most common way of pronouncing the word used by modern Britain and the world at large.
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and every other dictionary says so
Hang on a moment... You've checked EVERY dictionary?!
Besides, I'm sure there are violin/viola makers out there who would take great offense at you describing them as "luthiers". I know one who does, for sure!
And Tom beat me to pointing out your absolute PEARLER in the first sentence - EPIC FAIL! :) :) :)
I would be very interested to hear any other examples of a "th" similar to this instance being pronounced with a hard 't' (Believe it or not, I am reasonably well educated and have more than a marginal interest in the academic!).
Roo
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(without the rhyming couplets)
Ahhh, but how do you KNOW they didn't all speak in rhyming couplets?
:D
Roo
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saying 'loot-ee-ay' sounds very pretentious. a person who deals with furs is called a 'furrier' -> 'fuh-ree-er'... those are my justifications for saying 'Loo-thee-er'
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saying 'loot-ee-ay' sounds very pretentious. a person who deals with furs is called a 'furrier' -> 'fuh-ree-er'... those are my justifications for saying 'Loo-thee-er'
Indeed, otherwise all fur-related workers would be brilliant mathematicians, too!
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
I agree - but in a sense it does operate on a democratic basis because "normal" pronunciation changes over time. The dictionary makers even change the meanings of words if enough people use them incorrectly for a long enough time :roll: .
I'm sure "loot-i-er" (or even "loo-tee-ay") is correct, but I still say "loo-thee-er". Init.
I'm with you on this one.
FWIW I did English at A level & this word didn't come up. Oddly. :D
Admittedly I'm from the Portsmouth area so I pronounce it 'Loof-ee-er' but that's another matter completely.
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[(For example biscuit is pronounced 'biskit' (the original English spelling) but the French pronunciation, from which the modern spelling is derived, is 'Biz-Kwee'.
beess-ku-wee
I would be very interested to hear any other examples of a "th" similar to this instance being pronounced with a hard 't' (Believe it or not, I am reasonably well educated and have more than a marginal interest in the academic!).
Roo
beethoven. that's not english, of course.
outhouse. that's probably cheating though, as it's made from two separate words.
theresa is pronounced with a hard t, though.
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Game on forum bros, that pearler as you put woz intentional - I was fully aware of the howler and it was part of the humour I intended.
Of course pronunciation changes over time, but that doesn't make mis-pronunciation a virtue, it just shows collective ignorance. Northerners often omit articles from their sentences - its doesn't mean that their sentences are grammatically correct just because they do it every day.
As to checking all dictionaries - I've checked every dictionary that matters and all the other ones follow those. I would add that violin makers are technically referred to as luthiers whether they like it or not.
The word luthier is utterly pretentious anyway, according to the OED it wasn't used in England until around 1879, long after people stopped making lutes (on a large scale, at least). The lateness of the word's introduction into English accounts for why we still use the French pronunciation: the word has never become a naturalised word.
When applied to electric guitar makers, its laughable, why use such a pretentious word? You all want to anglicise the pronunciation, so why use an anachronistic French word in the first place? Why not a non-grandiose English word like guitar-maker? In fact I decree that as of this day I shall never use the word again.
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tbh - i just got used to people referring to me as a luthier. wasnt trying to be stuck up about it but it did stick:wink:
and i reckon i could build a lute if i had to!!! :P
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[(For example biscuit is pronounced 'biskit' (the original English spelling) but the French pronunciation, from which the modern spelling is derived, is 'Biz-Kwee'.
beess-ku-wee
I've just done an As level French course and I'd say it's 'Biz-kwee' (Taking into account that you'd be replicating a French accent whilst saying it, making the 'I' a hard 'E'.)
Taking that into account perhaps 'Beez-kwee' would be more accurate (the 'ku' sound is just the sound most people make with the letter 'K' as far as I can tell.).
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Cool - can you make me a lute? Its an instrument I always wanted to learn.
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i didnt say it would be a good lute!!
actually in all seriousness, some nice looking lute kits here
http://www.earlymusicshop.com/cat/stringinstruments/lutes/lute.htm#ems
but i would rather do a hurdy gurdy!!
If i start doing that i might have to adopt the 'master luthier' title ... at that point feel free to pull the archtop acoustic out of my arse :P
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beess-ku-wee
I've just done an As level French course and I'd say it's 'Biz-kwee' (Taking into account that you'd be replicating a French accent whilst saying it, making the 'I' a hard 'E'.)
Taking that into account perhaps 'Beez-kwee' would be more accurate (the 'ku' sound is just the sound most people make with the letter 'K' as far as I can tell.).
it's pretty quick into the "ku", but i'd say it's beess-ku-wee. much like "oui" is pronounced "oo-ee" (but the first "ou" bit is very quick, and most english people shorten it to "wee" as saying "oo" followed by "ee" quickly gives you something approximating a "w").
not too sure about whether it's more like an "s" or "z", when i say it with a french accent it's kinda halfway between.
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Ahh but using proper nouns is cheating, Dave!
But Elliot touched on a very important point:
Of course pronunciation changes over time, but that doesn't make mis-pronunciation a virtue, it just shows collective ignorance. Northerners often omit articles from their sentences - its doesn't mean that their sentences are grammatically correct just because they do it every day.
Pronunciation and grammar are two very different things, and you have lumped them together with dialects, too!
Dialects are not to be diminished or side-lined from the English language, they make up a rich and diverse pool of new and old words which keep our language evolving!. That's not an excuse for instances where general ignorance results in atrocious grammar, but the two should be separated!
Also, a clear disctinction should be made between the written and spoken word. For example, in Hull (or as it's pronounced correctly, 'Ull), it would perfectly acceptable to say that: there's ner sner on edden rerd (there's no snow on Hedon Road). It would be incorrect for it to be written any differently from one dialect region to another, though!
That said, general ignorance is one of the (arguably more minor) banes of modern society, but I think it's too far to lump the pronunication of a word (a word we all agree is totally pretentious) in with general ignorance of the English language.
This especially is true given that it appears to be the only word anyone can think of (that's not a proper noun or result of conjoining two words) where a th is recommended to be pronounced with a hard 't'.
Which brings me back to my example of "restaurant". Should we start saying all words recently derived from foreign languages in accents mimicking that language? Just because 'someone' decided that this word is pronounced this way, doesn't make them right in the first instance! You could argue that following that pronunciation was an act of general ignorance on the people who used it originally.
At the end of the day, we're all agreed: if you go round saying "looteeay", you'll sound like a right t**t!
Keep it coming :)
Roo
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I knew you would get me for the grammar/pronunciation/dialect category errors that I was committing in my above post. I entirely agree with you and have always argued against illogical prescriptive grammarians. To be honest, I couldn't resist a cheap shot at the northern dialect :D
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Dialects are not to be diminished or side-lined from the English language, they make up a rich and diverse pool of new and old words which keep our language evolving!
Those who aren't fond of local accents and dialects won't need to put up with them too much longer, I fear.
It seems to me that 90% of under-25s, wherever they live in the UK, talk as if they spent their formative years dividing their time equally between East London, South Central LA and Kingston, Jamaica. Which I find totally baffling.... I have two words for Britain's wannabe suburban gangstas. Tim Westwood. :?
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I might add that there are plenty of French words that have been recently grafted into English like luthier that are pronounced in the French way such as parfumeur, sommelier, maitre d', aide-mémoire, attaché, restaurateur, etc.
The difficulty with the descriptive approach to language as advocated here (the 'if people speak that way, then it adds to the rich development of language over time and is thus correct') is that it has to concede to a relativist view of linguistic standards which ultimately ends up in the babel that Philly Q describes.
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I might add that there are plenty of French words that have been recently grafted into English like luthier that are pronounced in the French way such as parfumeur, sommelier, maitre d', aide-mémoire, attaché, restaurateur, etc.
The difficulty with the descriptive approach to language as advocated here (the 'if people speak that way, then it adds to the rich development of language over time and is thus correct') is that it has to concede to a relativist view of linguistic standards which ultimately ends up in the babel that Philly Q describes.
To quote James Hetfield: Sad, but true :(
Innit.
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It seems to me that 90% of under-25s, wherever they live in the UK, talk as if they spent their formative years dividing their time equally between East London, South Central LA and Kingston, Jamaica. Which I find totally baffling.... I have two words for Britain's wannabe suburban gangstas. Tim Westwood. :?
This is something I am excited to be escaping by moving home to Scotland, where I've only very rarely encountered that nonsense.
But here in Birmingham, a couple white, upper-class-as-hell early-teen lad's regularly call me "blood" at work. It's farcical.
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I wouldn't say luthier is a new word in the english language, I mean we call it english but it's origins are french (norman), german(saxon), norse and latin (What have the Romans ever done for us?) in origin anyway. I'm pretty sure they had lutes and luthiers when the Normans invaded.
Anyway I say you just let us Scots take over and teach you all gaelic anyway :D
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Have I just entered an alternative reality, more closely aligned with University Challenge?!?!
I'm all in favour of literary expression (and non-US spell checkers (favor/favour???)). Not so long ago it was treason to start a sentence (let alone a paragraph) with the word "But"... Now it's a well used literary tool. Luthier is an odd word to pronounce, and funnily enough, is almost IMPOSSIBLE to say while sounding cool.
And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?
"Beeth-oven, dude!"
Mark.
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Have I just entered an alternative reality, more closely aligned with University Challenge?!?!
I'm all in favour of literary expression (and non-US spell checkers (favor/favour???)). Not so long ago it was treason to start a sentence (let alone a paragraph) with the word "But"... Now it's a well used literary tool. Luthier is an odd word to pronounce, and funnily enough, is almost IMPOSSIBLE to say while sounding cool.
And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?
"Beeth-oven, dude!"
Mark.
While it should be noted that I'm no expert on language matters, I remain fairly sure that starting sentences with the word 'But' should be completely and utterly banned. But what do I know?
Roo
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Anyway I say you just let us Scots take over and teach you all gaelic anyway :D
What, with the massive 1% of us who can speak it? :lol:
More Scottish people speak French than Gaelic.
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'I'm pretty sure they had lutes and luthiers when the Normans invaded'
I don't think the lute had developed from the arabic Oud by 1066 - it certainly didn't appear in Northern Europe until about 1400.
As I said - the OED (which unlike many dictionaries is not a prescriptive dictionary, but a historical dictionary based on when a word can be proved to be first used) has the first use of the word in 1879 and the main cluster of usage in the 1950s. There is no record in the most accurate source we have (the OED) of it being used earlier - so whilst they had 'lute makers' earlier on, they didn't call themselves luthiers.
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Have I just entered an alternative reality, more closely aligned with University Challenge?!?!
I'm all in favour of literary expression (and non-US spell checkers (favor/favour???)). Not so long ago it was treason to start a sentence (let alone a paragraph) with the word "But"... Now it's a well used literary tool. Luthier is an odd word to pronounce, and funnily enough, is almost IMPOSSIBLE to say while sounding cool.
And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?
"Beeth-oven, dude!"
Mark.
While it should be noted that I'm no expert on language matters, I remain fairly sure that starting sentences with the word 'But' should be completely and utterly banned. But what do I know?
Roo
you learn the rules first - then start breaking them!!
At school we tell the kids they are allowed to start a sentence with 'and' or 'but' after they have written a best seller :D
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I'd like to say the Beethoven is pronounced 'Bait-Ho-ven'. It has something to do with feet, I think. Maybe I'm talking a load of old cobblers there.
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Pronunciation and grammar are two very different things, and you have lumped them together with dialects, too!
Dialects are not to be diminished or side-lined from the English language, they make up a rich and diverse pool of new and old words which keep our language evolving!. That's not an excuse for instances where general ignorance results in atrocious grammar, but the two should be separated!
Also, a clear disctinction should be made between the written and spoken word. For example, in Hull (or as it's pronounced correctly, 'Ull), it would perfectly acceptable to say that: there's ner sner on edden rerd (there's no snow on Hedon Road). It would be incorrect for it to be written any differently from one dialect region to another, though!
agreed. :)
my grammar is pretty good, but obviously coming from northern ireland i don't exactlyhave an rp accent... someone with the "correct" rp accent could conceivably use worse grammar than i do.
I might add that there are plenty of French words that have been recently grafted into English like luthier that are pronounced in the French way such as parfumeur, sommelier, maitre d', aide-mémoire, attaché, restaurateur, etc.
The difficulty with the descriptive approach to language as advocated here (the 'if people speak that way, then it adds to the rich development of language over time and is thus correct') is that it has to concede to a relativist view of linguistic standards which ultimately ends up in the babel that Philly Q describes.
also agreed.
And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?
"Beeth-oven, dude!"
Mark.
yeah, i think he was hanging out with so-crates...
:lol:
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Language must evolve to survive,
say stuff how you wanna say it. Doesn't matter.
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And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?
"Beeth-oven, dude!"
Mark.
yeah, i think he was hanging out with so-crates...
:lol:
not to mention Mr The Kid
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And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?
"Beeth-oven, dude!"
*ignores rest of thread*
I need to see that again.
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not to mention Mr The Kid
:lol:
Language must evolve to survive,
say stuff how you wanna say it. Doesn't matter.
kinda does if people don't understand it...