Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: AngusYoung01 on June 04, 2008, 10:52:33 AM
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Hey guys, been a while since I've last posted :)
Anyway, I'm considering getting a Bill Lawrence L500XL (made by him and Becky, not a cr@ppy "Bill Lawrence USA" one) as I'm after a Nuno like tone for my Charvel going through a Marshall DSL50, and was recommended highly by many people ofthis pickup.
I was just wondering what BKP alternatives you would suggest, to keep my options open.
Thanks dudes :D
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The XL500L is a chainsaw-y, low-end-less painkiller.
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Before anyone slags the pickup off, I love what I've heard, and for what I'm after, it seems to be the only way to go.
But you would recommend a Painkiller?
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Well, I'm not a fan of the l500xl (its not dreadfull, but I'd never go for one), but the painkiller is what I'd point you to in the BK range thats most similar. The PK has a much bigger sound thats not grainy (which the BL is) and its lows are lower and there are more of them, and they are tighter.
I think the BL has a higher resonant frequency, but its overall character of tight cruch is most closely matched by the PK.
I recommend you get a PK, but if you want an l500xl, go for it.
Oh, word of warning: a mate got an l500xl and it screams with microphonics. Never taken any other than that one loud enough to get the same result (never above tv-volume), but my BKs were quiet through the same amp with the same settings in the same place relative to the amp (and closer for that matter).
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Sounds like you've made your mind up to me, plus what do you expect us here on the BKP forum to say? :roll:
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are bill and becky hand winding them? quite important IMO.
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I think so, yeah, but hes rather scornfull of scatterwindy goodness. AFAIK its only BK and Wolfetone that do that (please add to this list if you know others!)
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ok then... so "handwound by machine" pfft. i feel sure scatterwinding and proper enamel wire are two of the biggest bkp 'secrets'. I'm not sure I would buy a bill lawrence then.
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Well, they claim 'handwound', but yeah, most of the time it means their hand pushed the button on an auto-shutoff winder.
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Thats interesting about the painkiller. Is your freinds an actual Bill and Becky one?
AndI think that grainy ness if what I'm after strangley, the same ballpark as Extreme's "Pornografitti" album?
- Dave - Nah, I'm not dead set on anything yet, I want to be completely sure before I spend my money :)
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I dont know which it is, actually.
Since you mention pornografitti, I wouldnt go for a PK. Its heavier than that. Probably a cold sweat, for a bright, snappy, fast, crunchy tone.
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I dont know which it is, actually.
Ahh ok, can I be cheeky and ask if you could ask him please? :D
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I dont know which it is, actually.
Ahh ok, can I be cheeky and ask if you could ask him please? :D
Yeah, but the answer will be slow in coming. I'll get back to you on it (at some point)
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As far as I know Nuno used the EMG loaded Steinberger at Michael Wagener's studio for a lot of Pornograffitti, so I'd probably go for a Miracleman.
That said, a couple of years ago someone else was looking to get close to his tone and Tim recommended the (then unreleased) Cold Sweat.
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Well, they claim 'handwound', but yeah, most of the time it means their hand pushed the button on an auto-shutoff winder.
its not like any pickup maker actually sits and winds a bobbin by hand - i challenge anyone to be able to do more than a few hundred winds without snapping the wire... let alone the 5000+ needed for a decent pickup
handwound to me means that a pickup maker sits at his pickup winding machine and makes sure that tension is kept constant and the wire is filling up the bobbin nicely.
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i'm sure everyone uses a winding machine, even if its just a sewing machine motor or whatever. i suppose its the degree of automation we're talking about. i think its important that the machine enables the winder to do scatterwinding.
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Well, they claim 'handwound', but yeah, most of the time it means their hand pushed the button on an auto-shutoff winder.
its not like any pickup maker actually sits and winds a bobbin by hand - i challenge anyone to be able to do more than a few hundred winds without snapping the wire... let alone the 5000+ needed for a decent pickup
handwound to me means that a pickup maker sits at his pickup winding machine and makes sure that tension is kept constant and the wire is filling up the bobbin nicely.
Methinks Tim would beg to differ ;)
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what, you reckon tim winds each coil by hand... i.e tim holding a bobbin in one hand and a spool of wire in another!!!
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I have watched BK's made and Wez is completely right. The bobbins turn on a winding maching (in this case a modified lathe I think), and whoever is doing the winding guides the wire by hand and they make the scatterwound pattern as they fill the bobbin.
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No, wez, thats not what I meant. I meant that all the winds are guided by hand onto a rotating thing (lathe in tims case edit -yep, phil, lathe)
Difference between that and what most do is they start off a winder, go have do something else, come back to finished pickups.
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Well, they claim 'handwound', but yeah, most of the time it means their hand pushed the button on an auto-shutoff winder.
its not like any pickup maker actually sits and winds a bobbin by hand - i challenge anyone to be able to do more than a few hundred winds without snapping the wire... let alone the 5000+ needed for a decent pickup
handwound to me means that a pickup maker sits at his pickup winding machine and makes sure that tension is kept constant and the wire is filling up the bobbin nicely.
Methinks Tim would beg to differ ;)
Although he does make it sound simple :wink: I think Wez is right;
Just for reference it's not the bobbin moving or a machine guiding the wire-here at BKP we guide the wire onto the bobbin through our fingers while the bobbin is rotated on a flywheel. The tension and wind pattern is determined by the person doing the winding and it's impossible for a machine, computer or whatever to reproduce this.
REF.
http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4180&highlight=machine
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Well, they claim 'handwound', but yeah, most of the time it means their hand pushed the button on an auto-shutoff winder.
its not like any pickup maker actually sits and winds a bobbin by hand - i challenge anyone to be able to do more than a few hundred winds without snapping the wire... let alone the 5000+ needed for a decent pickup
handwound to me means that a pickup maker sits at his pickup winding machine and makes sure that tension is kept constant and the wire is filling up the bobbin nicely.
Methinks Tim would beg to differ ;)
Although he does make it sound simple :wink: I think Wez is right;
Just for reference it's not the bobbin moving or a machine guiding the wire-here at BKP we guide the wire onto the bobbin through our fingers while the bobbin is rotated on a flywheel. The tension and wind pattern is determined by the person doing the winding and it's impossible for a machine, computer or whatever to reproduce this.
REF.
http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4180&highlight=machine
I misread Wez's original post (skimmed it). Of course thats what he does. I didnt realise that he thought that I thought that anyone sat with the bobbin in one hand and the wire in the other. Thats mental. I guess it didnt register. Its the guiding every turn by hand that I consider handwinding, and setting off a machine that both guides the wire and winds the pickup that is not (but many claim it is, for some reason).
Everything clear now?
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i do like to make things sound simple, thats how i get my head around it!!!
i just wanted to be clear on what we all meant by handwinding because as far as i am aware bill and becky also sit and monitor the machines as they are running, although i am not sure if they are completely hand guiding the wire like with BKP's
to me tension is key... any fool with a drill can scatterwind a pickup (i have done it with my drill press :wink: ), but getting it scatterwound and getting a nicely tensioned non-microphonic coil is a bit harder
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I think so, yeah, but hes rather scornfull of scatterwindy goodness. AFAIK its only BK and Wolfetone that do that (please add to this list if you know others!)
Wagner, Motorcity, Heussel... pretty sure there's a bunch, but none of them have the selection BKP offers.
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I think so, yeah, but hes rather scornfull of scatterwindy goodness. AFAIK its only BK and Wolfetone that do that (please add to this list if you know others!)
Wagner, Motorcity, Heussel... pretty sure there's a bunch, but none of them have the selection BKP offers.
Cool. Cheers ilyti.
Yeah, wez, as I understand it the tension is pretty vital - the amount and the way you change the tension (lower it) as you get to the outer winds, too.
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I think so, yeah, but hes rather scornfull of scatterwindy goodness. AFAIK its only BK and Wolfetone that do that (please add to this list if you know others!)
loads of guys scatterwind, as far as i'm aware.
don't want to post on the forum, but you can drop me a pm if you like...
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I think so, yeah, but hes rather scornfull of scatterwindy goodness. AFAIK its only BK and Wolfetone that do that (please add to this list if you know others!)
loads of guys scatterwind, as far as i'm aware.
don't want to post on the forum, but you can drop me a pm if you like...
Nah, thats OK. I'm only mildy curious. Thanks anywho mate.
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what makes you think the Bill Lawrence USA ones are cr@ppy and the Bill and Becky ones arnt??
Dime liked his Bill Lawrence USA 500XL.. i didnt really, the 500L is where its at!!
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what makes you think the Bill Lawrence USA ones are cr@ppy??
Dime
There you have it.
(okay I know that's not really what you were asking, but I just can't resist taking a slab at Dime)
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Just in case anyone missed it, there was this thread a few weeks ago about the two different "Bill Lawrence" manufacturers:
http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12644&highlight=lawrence
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Nah, thats OK. I'm only mildy curious. Thanks anywho mate.
i just noticed after i posted that someone else had listed a bunch anyway, but i was too lazy/forgetful to edit... :drink:
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I'm after a Nuno like tone for my Charvel
Its quite ironic that you said you dont want a "cr@ppy" Bill lawrence USA pickup, then said you want a pickup that sounds like someone who uses a bill lawrence USA pickup.
either way, just e-mail tim with a description of your guitar and he will suggest something im sure.
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I think so, yeah, but hes rather scornfull of scatterwindy goodness. AFAIK its only BK and Wolfetone that do that (please add to this list if you know others!)
Swineshead also do scatterwound pickups
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I'm after a Nuno like tone for my Charvel
Its quite ironic that you said you dont want a "cr@ppy" Bill lawrence USA pickup, then said you want a pickup that sounds like someone who uses a bill lawrence USA pickup.
either way, just e-mail tim with a description of your guitar and he will suggest something im sure.
+10000000000
:lol:
i had a bill lawrence USA and it was the clearest non-BK pickup i had
but it's overbright, mid scooped and lacks bass too
ask for a cold sweat with some extra treble
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I think so, yeah, but hes rather scornfull of scatterwindy goodness. AFAIK its only BK and Wolfetone that do that (please add to this list if you know others!)
Swineshead also do scatterwound pickups
I've had a couple of sets of SH. Pretty good pickups. Not BK-good, but good.
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Oh, and my mates BL is a BL USA.
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I'm after a Nuno like tone for my Charvel
Its quite ironic that you said you dont want a "cr@ppy" Bill lawrence USA pickup, then said you want a pickup that sounds like someone who uses a bill lawrence USA pickup.
either way, just e-mail tim with a description of your guitar and he will suggest something im sure.
I'm pretty sure Nuno used Bill Lawrence pickups made by Bill & Becky which are supposed to sound different, and much better than the Bill Lawrence USA ones
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I think so, yeah, but hes rather scornfull of scatterwindy goodness. AFAIK its only BK and Wolfetone that do that (please add to this list if you know others!)
Swineshead also do scatterwound pickups
don't think so... :?
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I think so, yeah, but hes rather scornfull of scatterwindy goodness. AFAIK its only BK and Wolfetone that do that (please add to this list if you know others!)
Swineshead also do scatterwound pickups
don't think so... :?
Hmnmm
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The site doesnt mention it
I suppose, if I cared enough, I could as Jon.
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its been mentioned here in the past that SH pups are scatterwound. i don't know if thats true/still true.
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I think so, yeah, but hes rather scornfull of scatterwindy goodness. AFAIK its only BK and Wolfetone that do that (please add to this list if you know others!)
Swineshead also do scatterwound pickups
don't think so... :?
I'm actually pretty certain of this. I could be wrong though it was a hell of a long time ago that i spoke to them on the phone about there different pickups.
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I'm pretty sure Nuno used Bill Lawrence pickups made by Bill & Becky which are supposed to sound different, and much better than the Bill Lawrence USA ones
it can't be truth, as didn't exist "bill & becky" l500's until this decade
dave mustaine also used the USA on the neck position his main jackson KV
becky "lawrence" lied for years all over the internet about dimebag being their friend and buying direct from them for years
but when the video of dime saying he used bill lawrence pickups from stewart macdonald (main and only BL USA seller on early 90's) leaked, she disappeared from teh forums (lol)
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I'm after a Nuno like tone for my Charvel
Its quite ironic that you said you dont want a "cr@ppy" Bill lawrence USA pickup, then said you want a pickup that sounds like someone who uses a bill lawrence USA pickup.
either way, just e-mail tim with a description of your guitar and he will suggest something im sure.
+10000000000
:lol:
i had a bill lawrence USA and it was the clearest non-BK pickup i had
but it's overbright, mid scooped and lacks bass too
ask for a cold sweat with some extra treble
Actually, I think you'll find Nuno's pickups have always been made by Bill, but now since their Bills parting from his company, Washbrun still uses the USA's, whilst Nuno's guitars are still using ones now made by Bill and Becky.
I like the idea of asking Tim though, I've been curious about a Cold Sweat for too long now...
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dave mustaine also used the USA on the neck position his main jackson KV
that is true but pointless of it being there as mustaine has always said he never uses the neck pickup no matter what as he hates the sound.
Weird guy
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I'm actually pretty certain of this. I could be wrong though it was a hell of a long time ago that i spoke to them on the phone about there different pickups.
from what i remember, someone over at UG ages back emailed him to ask, and he said they were handwound, but not scatter-wound. of course, that's hearsay, so if you have better info, i'm perfectly willing to be corrected. i originally thought i had, but now i remember, it was someone else. my memory is terrible. :lol:
I hope it's alright to talk about this on here... there's no problem (for me, anyway) if it's not. :)
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Actually, I think you'll find Nuno's pickups have always been made by Bill, but now since their Bills parting from his company, Washbrun still uses the USA's, whilst Nuno's guitars are still using ones now made by Bill and Becky.
nope, they are Bill Lawrence USA
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I've always thought the L500s in Nunos guitars were BL-USA ones.
The Bill & Becky ones I got weren't to my taste at all - low end was mushy and they sounded nothing like Dime or Nuno ever did (or any of the better youtube clips of Dime-fans showing their skills with their BL-USA-loaded Dean MLs).
I think Bill & Becky did a good job of smearing the BL-USA pickups on the net and everyone now accepts it as 'fact' that the Bill & Becky ones are the better pickups and anyone famous who used L500s used their version. I think the reality is exactly the opposite from my experience.
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On the Extreme forum I go on, they all rave about the B&B ones over the BL-USA, and say that Nuno's were made by Bill back in the day?
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On the Extreme forum I go on, they all rave about the B&B ones over the BL-USA, and say that Nuno's were made by Bill back in the day?
because that's been spread by becky lawrence for years
will stich (bill lawrence) left bill lawrence USA company in 1984 and didn't make any L-500xl till this decade
if nuno uses it NOW, then he at least used bill lawrence USA through all the 90's
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This is interesting :?
I'm more than a little confused now! What are the chances Tim could make a custom for me, modelled to create Nuno's Pornograffitti tone?
It seems that BKP's will not only be made better, but I won't get a headache thinking about it :lol:
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I've sent an email to Tim regarding possibilities of a custom humbucker, seems the BKP bug has bitten again :lol:
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i'd love to have a blade BKP :(
maybe if we send another pickup to get rewound by tim? :idea:
like this: http://store.guitarfetish.com/gfscrraourho1.html :lol:
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:lol: Good thinking! We'll have to pester him :P
Well, I think my search for a Bill Lawrence L500XL has come to its close in the form of an email from Tim - the Cold Sweat "will nail that tone"... I almost feel guilty for considering anything else :twisted:
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Well, they claim 'handwound', but yeah, most of the time it means their hand pushed the button on an auto-shutoff winder.
its not like any pickup maker actually sits and winds a bobbin by hand - i challenge anyone to be able to do more than a few hundred winds without snapping the wire... let alone the 5000+ needed for a decent pickup
handwound to me means that a pickup maker sits at his pickup winding machine and makes sure that tension is kept constant and the wire is filling up the bobbin nicely.
Yeah, expecting a handmade pickup to be made without a bobbin winder is like expecting a handmade cabinet to be made without a saw, a hammer, and a chisel (or whatever cabinet-makers use).
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I have a guitar with a original BL L500 in the bridge...I've had it since about 1983. I also got a BL USA for the bridge and it sounds great. My bridge position sounds very much like the Seymour Duncan Custom Shop EVH 78.
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I have been researching this topic for too long, i have come to some conclusions.
http://www.billlawrencereview.com/BillLawrence_Timeline?q=node/13
this website explains the differences between 2 pups well. from closely looking at nuno's N4, the pup is not filled with the epoxy which made me think that it was actually built by bill & becky, however, the blade is as thin as USA version, and bill never have produced pups with thin blades over the years. also nuno's pup does not have curved blades either. This led me to a conclusion that he uses an usa version. it is also confirmed that his paduck guitar has usa version.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calmante/2408717058/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonnywhite/625072080/sizes/o/
A/B test (washburn n4) from the nuno forum can be heard from the link below; 1st usa 2nd bill & becky (not the best sample but u get the idea)
http://www.box.net/shared/jmkefl5k4w
Finally, bill & becky pups stopped using ceramic magnet and it was substituted to alnico v magnet. bill claims that they have made some adjustment in their winding to produce the same sound as the previous ceramic pups did but I think it is total BS. think the sound is nowhere near nuno/dimebag territory.
I like how usa version sound. it may be a bit shrill for some but it sounds clear, dynamic, punchy.. it has character. it definitely fits guitars like N4s... it has downside also, like its build quality and weak bass etc etc... I wish Tim could make some adjustment and bring out better version of L500. :)
on final note, I found coil tapped miracle man can sound very L500 alike (check out my youtube vid for the clip)
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I have been researching this topic for too long, i have come to some conclusions.
http://www.billlawrencereview.com/BillLawrence_Timeline?q=node/13
this website explains the differences between 2 pups well. from closely looking at nuno's N4, the pup is not filled with the epoxy which made me think that it was actually built by bill & becky, however, the blade is as thin as USA version, and bill never have produced pups with thin blades over the years. also nuno's pup does not have curved blades either. This led me to a conclusion that he uses an usa version. it is also confirmed that his paduck guitar has usa version.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calmante/2408717058/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonnywhite/625072080/sizes/o/
A/B test (washburn n4) from the nuno forum can be heard from the link below; 1st usa 2nd bill & becky (not the best sample but u get the idea)
http://www.box.net/shared/jmkefl5k4w
Finally, bill & becky pups stopped using ceramic magnet and it was substituted to alnico v magnet. bill claims that they have made some adjustment in their winding to produce the same sound as the previous ceramic pups did but I think it is total BS. think the sound is nowhere near nuno/dimebag territory.
I like how usa version sound. it may be a bit shrill for some but it sounds clear, dynamic, punchy.. it has character. it definitely fits guitars like N4s... it has downside also, like its build quality and weak bass etc etc... I wish Tim could make some adjustment and bring out better version of L500. :)
on final note, I found coil tapped miracle man can sound very L500 alike (check out my youtube vid for the clip)
great post :D
actually those pics look like epoxy sealed BL USA's
but if the rails were thick, it would not necessarily be a bill&becky, cause the washburn USA signature dimebags had bill lawrence USA's with thick rails (a friend of mine had two dime USA's and both had thick blade BLUSA's)
i've read about the alnico on the news b&b's too
the miracle man doesn't sound like the lawrence, but it definitely has a weird characteristic in common
both sound chunky and kidna dark on the lower strings and very bright on the first strings, but the miracle man goes more extreme on that
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Eric, I am just wondering, is your MM still the neck one you put in bridge position? or have you upgraded to the ceramic bridge yet?
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I watched a video of an interview with dime where he says that he uses the USA ones and he gets them from stewmac. Want me to see if i can find it?
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Eric, I am just wondering, is your MM still the neck one you put in bridge position? or have you upgraded to the ceramic bridge yet?
i didn't do that, my friend did it in a cort kx1 katana (all mahogany, but a thin body guitar)
i imagine it could mud up a bit in a les paul
i'm using his regular ceramic miracle man bridge in my les paul, but i'm taking my holy diver back on the next week
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I watched a video of an interview with dime where he says that he uses the USA ones and he gets them from stewmac. Want me to see if i can find it?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TLrtPJpH5S4
Saved you the trouble. It was linked in that other BL thread a while ago.
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I watched a video of an interview with dime where he says that he uses the USA ones and he gets them from stewmac. Want me to see if i can find it?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TLrtPJpH5S4
Saved you the trouble. It was linked in that other BL thread a while ago.
ah cheers. stopped me having to search through the metallica forums.