Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Fourth Feline on June 11, 2008, 06:04:54 PM
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Hiya folks,
A long overdue review of my new Mississipi Queens ! I had originally ordered them to put i my '76 Gibson S.G. Standard - to commemorate removing it from comission sale, but when I heard what amazing things they could do - I just knew they belonged in my largely mahoghany based Semi-acoustic' (Tanglewood '335' copy ).
The reasoning was as follows:
They have this incredible ability to simultaniously fatten up the sound of the unwound strings, whilst adding great detail / clarity to the wound strings. In the S.G. this was a luxury - but in the 335 copy it was a necessity. With the 335 I had rather warm but very 'soft' ( both quiet and a liitle hazy ) bass response. The low 'E' in particular seemed to resonate at a frequency that got a bit lost in all the mahoghany. At first I had asked Tim to replace the Alnico II magnets in my Stormy Mondays with Alinico IV - and that did help. That pickup / magnet option however, leveled out the e.q to such a degree of purity that whilst I could now hear the bass reponse better in all my mahoghany guitars - I also lost a little thickness / sweetness at the top end.
Enter the Mississippi Queens ! Suddenly the 335 had this beautiful thick/ chewy but CLEAR top end ( as in Larry Carlton ) - and a defined , powerfull, yet sweet bottom end I never knew a pickup could bestow.
They are of course my first P90s of any brand, so they where bound to sound different, but the incredibly accurate balance between Alnico V bridge and Alnico IV neck ( with appropriate windings of course ) - means that both pickups can sit at the same gap from the strings, and change tonal qualities without changing volume. I know someone on here once said they did not like the way that a M.Q. bridge and neck sound similar - but I love it .
The best way to ( try ) and describe it is that with my B.K.P humbuckers, the bridge pickup was sounding constonants, and the neck pickup vowels. With the M.Qs, both where now making vowel sounds , but the "aahhh" came from the neck pickups - and the "oooohh" from the bridge.
This was the most remarkable manifestation of mellow but powerful I had ever heard. The pickups sounded great at any pickup / string gap from 1mm to 5mm - just a different character, any colour you want ...
Rest assured you Rock Gods out there, with the M.Qs set lower down, and / or the E.Q settings altered - I can imagine these have the power and tone to really 'Rock Out' - plenty of push and 'ooomph' hidden behind those polite chrome covers !
However, for my mellow ( but powerfully clear ) purposes, I found the sweet spot to be 1/16" ( 1.6mm ) between polepiece top and underside of strings as held down at the last fret. These really are responsive though, you get a different sound with even as little variation of height setting as 1mm, 1.6mm and 2mm ! . At 1/16" I had incredible thick / chewy / clear tones at the top and a clarity in the bass which even enabled me to put nickel strings on a mahoghany guitar and still get that 'zing' when I needed it.
If I could get 3 variations in tone ( all good ones ! ) between 1 and 2mm, then imagine how versatile they sounded when experimenting between 1 - 5mm !
My formerly mumbling low 'E' string now sounds like it has had elecution lessons - and I find it hard to put the guitar down ! In the context that I use them , I have never , ever heard such tonal flexibility, even form my beloved Stormy Mondays - and that really is saying something ...
Thanks again to Tim ( A.K.A ' mind reader' ) for recommending them to me - and the kind people on this forum that offered advice about their own M.Q.s - and Twinfan for guiding me past the ( very tempting ) 'Riff Raffs' - and onto my dream pickups .
( * Bliss * ) ...
8)
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Great review :) I have a neck MQ on its way for my Pearl LP but its taking ages to arrive :x the guy I bought it off has been moving flat so hasnt had much spare time yet apparently :\
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Great review :) I have a neck MQ on its way for my Pearl LP but its taking ages to arrive :x the guy I bought it off has been moving flat so hasnt had much spare time yet apparently :\
Cheers Tom :)
Meanwhile, get everything else you need to do in life done before the M.Q. arrives - because afterwards you are going to be doing a lot of playing.
( p.s. send him begging letters ) :lol:
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Glad you like them! Your review rings pretty true for what I noticed too. At first I wasn't a fan of both pickups sounding similar- I like my neck pup to be warm, almost muddy (yet defined...), which the MQ is not. It's amazing though, I love my Epi LP a whole lot more now.
I'm not a total P90 convert yet though, the MQ I have just doesn't cut it with my band, its TOO fat, I need a bit more bite. Glad i have a Holydiver for that job...
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Glad you like them! Your review rings pretty true for what I noticed too. At first I wasn't a fan of both pickups sounding similar- I like my neck pup to be warm, almost muddy (yet defined...), which the MQ is not. It's amazing though, I love my Epi LP a whole lot more know.
I'm not a total P90 convert yet though, the MQ I have just doesn't cut it with my band, its TOO fat, I need a bit more bite. Glad i have a Holydiver for that job...
I can see what you mean about 'fat' vs 'bite'. I was deemed more needy of the former than the later by Twinfan and Tim - who know what pleases my ears, although I remember that there was another 335 user on here who loves the Riff Raffs for some ' bite 'n' snap. Just goes to show that the range of existing B.K.P give us a really good set of choices - and cater for all tastes. I was not ruling out the Riff - Raffs, certainly not for the original S.G. 'target' - but rather suspecting that I'd only end up muting the E.Q. - which rather contradicted the purpose of buying them. Bear in mind that one of my main tonal heroes ( Larry Carlton ) often runs his bridge pickup with the tone turned down to 3 !
As I play through ( given half a chance ) - predominantly Fender or a ( Fenderesgue ) really clean Laney LH50R-II amp, - fat was / is the ideal balance for me. Just now I am having to just use a Fender 'G-Dec' junior on the cleanest Fender 'Blackface' setting for my jamming fun - but even on that I can hear a taste of what will happen when I uleash the mighty Fender Twin again.
It was interesting ( and informative ) to hear your own take on the P90s though, as such comparisons assist greatly with future purchases.
Cheers !
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Excellent review !! You sound really happy :) With BKPs it is all about details. Nice!!
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its TOO fat, I need a bit more bite. .
unpossible.
Seriously though this has made me worry about geting MQs. I was hoping for a humbuckerish fatness with the bite and clarity of a singlecoil. Mine'll be going in an all mahogany Les Paul as well.
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its TOO fat, I need a bit more bite. .
unpossible.
Seriously though this has made me worry about geting MQs. I was hoping for a humbuckerish fatness with the bite and clarity of a singlecoil. Mine'll be going in an all mahogany Les Paul as well.
Well they have bite, just not enough the kind I'm looking for... It's hard to explain. I'd say their pretty balanced tonally, I'll do another demo with the Tiny Terror whacked right up, I love them...
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I know someone on here once said they did not like the way that a M.Q. bridge and neck sound similar - but I love it .
That may have been me, I've often bemoaned the fact that I owned four dual P-90 guitars before realising that the neck and bridge simply sound too similar (for me). But in my defence, I was talking about Gibson and Duncan pickups, never tried the MQs so I can't comment on them.
Or it may have been someone else altogether. :oops:
But anyway, splendid review Derek. :)
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Glad you like them matey - seems to have worked out great :)
Are the AIV Stormies in your SG now then?
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Very nice review.
I think I'm like Badgermark, after my initial "WOW" on MQs, I'm struggling a little getting used to them. Unlike Badgermark - I'm getting too much bite for my liking!
But from your review, it sounds to me like we both need to experiment a little further with pickup heights... the missus is out tonight, think I'll get that screwdriver out!
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Very nice review.
I think I'm like Badgermark, after my initial "WOW" on MQs, I'm struggling a little getting used to them. Unlike Badgermark - I'm getting too much bite for my liking!
But from your review, it sounds to me like we both need to experiment a little further with pickup heights... the missus is out tonight, think I'll get that screwdriver out!
I wouldn't say I'm struggling, I LOVE them and they're keepers, just something different than what I've been used to the past 6 months. Maybe its just my guitar to blame- a heavy epi les paul of unknown body wood might beef up the bass a little.
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I know someone on here once said they did not like the way that a M.Q. bridge and neck sound similar - but I love it .
That may have been me, I've often bemoaned the fact that I owned four dual P-90 guitars before realising that the neck and bridge simply sound too similar (for me). But in my defence, I was talking about Gibson and Duncan pickups, never tried the MQs so I can't comment on them.
Or it may have been someone else altogether. :oops:
But anyway, splendid review Derek. :)
Cheers Phil :)
I still feel that your comments ( if it was you ) about P90 bridge / neck similaritys are valid, but I had a use for that. If anything, your comments helped me to understand better what might ( and did ) happen when I bought them. The description sounded nice for my purposes / style of playing. I then knew that if I factored in the fact they where B.K.P and wound / balanced voiced as such - I would have more ' breathing space ' within that characteristic - without losing the percieved benefits of that general choice.
The nice ' P.S. ' about the M.Qs (as B.K.P. are very sensitive to changes in height settings and the instrument's other attributes ) - is that you can widen that tonal gap more than I do, by messing around with pickup height settings - and using them in the 'right' guitar for whatever reasons you might want fairly close tonal attributes. I could have got a real 'twang' if I had deliberatley left one pickup lower , or a harder bite had I lifted it a tiny bit higher - but I wanted two flavours of ice cream, not gooseberries or icecream
I think I once read something similar on the forum about the 'Miracle Man' pickups - and thought that if I was young and fast enough to play that style - I would be attracted by those same sort of attributes. I already have other guitars that do the " bite first, then kiss better " trick between bridge and neck .
That is why I believe it is the debate that follows a 'review' that can often yield more insight than the actual review . The ensuing comments / debate revealing so much more as to how the same attributes have been liked / disliked in a wider context - and in what models / types of guitars we seem to get the best results from.
:)
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Glad you like them matey - seems to have worked out great :)
Are the AIV Stormies in your SG now then?
No mate, as the S.G. is a guitar that I ' collect' much more than play - I have re-fitted the 70s pickups and 70s Schaller bridge back on, and put her back into safe storage with new strings , fret polish and fingerboard oiling e.t.c. The stock ' Tar Back ' pickups are actually quite pleasant, of course not to B.K.P standards - but O.K.
If I remember rightly, they sounded a bit more open than the current trend for Gibbo 490 / 498 pairings. Having said that, it hardly seems surprising - as the D.C. resistance of those S.G. pickups is only about 5. 2 K / 7k respectively - and with 500K pots now fitted / 32 year old magnets that can sound relatively open. I might ( for authenticity ) - one day - re-fit the intact 70s 300K volume / 100K tone pots and slip back in time ...
This leaves the AIV Stormies also treasured, polished, boxed and destined for purposes as yet un- defined. Watch this space ... :wink:
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If you ever want to sell the Stormies, just drop me a line. I'd be tempted to try them in my Gibson LP......
But I'm sure you have something good planned for them 8)
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Very nice review.
I think I'm like Badgermark, after my initial "WOW" on MQs, I'm struggling a little getting used to them. Unlike Badgermark - I'm getting too much bite for my liking!
But from your review, it sounds to me like we both need to experiment a little further with pickup heights... the missus is out tonight, think I'll get that screwdriver out!
Hi Andy, :)
Try the range between about 1mm - 2mm. At that range - I found a sweet compression started to happen midway. I don't mean dull or muddy, but rather like switching on a Barber 'Tone Press' with some compressed signal blended in with the clean. This sound I refer to as 'chewy'.
The type of sound I mean can be heard on 'You Tube' during the opening few guitar phrases that Larry Carlton gets whilst playing the instumental " Just An Excuse" . I know he achieves it far differently - but it will answer the question " what the heck does he mean by 'chewy " ?
In the end, I got 'chewy' tones ( from a top set of 10.5 , 13, 17 strings ) at 1/16" ( 1.6 mm ). At 1mm the hard edge / bite came back a bit - and at 3mm + they started to sound more Chuck berry than Larry Carlton /B.B.King e.t.c. 2mm was nice, but I liked the 'magic' of circa 1.5 mm .
I could also hear how at even lower height settings, someone like 'Stray Cat' would be able to play great Rockabilly.
If it helps, I tend to play ( and therefore set up the guitar ) in the middle toggle position a lot - and it is there it ended up sounding 'chewier' than the neck pickup alone - which sounded Jazzier.
Being a creature of habit - I like to set both pickups to the same height as each other - and the bass at the same distance from the pickup as the treble end. I mention all this - as perhaps my particular 'habits' may be accidentally revealing the 'sweet spot' sooner. So, try middle toggle - and move both pickps together to fall into ( and away from ) the zone I found.
Let us know how you got on
:D
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Thanks for that FF - lots of food for thought, I'll give it a go.
I think one of my problems is that I'm originally a strat player (still am!) and I've also got a fair amount of humbucker experience, but this is the first set of p90 types I've ever played, so I don't really know what they can do for me and how they fit in.
When I installed the MQs, for the first day or two it was "WOW! this is the best of both worlds, is this what I've been searching for all my life?...", but, of course, it's not "the best of both worlds", they create a sound all of their own. And it didn't help that within a week I'd bought a Love Rock to house my Mules, and I've gone all Brian Robertson and Paul Kossoff since then!
I suspect that I keep approaching the MQs in a "humbucker" or "fender-type-single-coil" frame of mind (more the former at the moment) which kind of restricts what I can get out of them. Before I start adjusting tonight, I'll make sure I don't touch any of the other guitars first - the SG with it's MQs gets a whole night of loving to itself...
And, Badgermark, yeah, I agree with you, "struggle" is putting it way too strong for me as well, my bad choice of word, sorry about that! :)
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Thanks for that FF - lots of food for thought, I'll give it a go.
I think one of my problems is that I'm originally a strat player (still am!) and I've also got a fair amount of humbucker experience, but this is the first set of p90 types I've ever played, so I don't really know what they can do for me and how they fit in.
When I installed the MQs, for the first day or two it was "WOW! this is the best of both worlds, is this what I've been searching for all my life?...", but, of course, it's not "the best of both worlds", they create a sound all of their own. And it didn't help that within a week I'd bought a Love Rock to house my Mules, and I've gone all Brian Robertson and Paul Kossoff since then!
I suspect that I keep approaching the MQs in a "humbucker" or "fender-type-single-coil" frame of mind (more the former at the moment) which kind of restricts what I can get out of them. Before I start adjusting tonight, I'll make sure I don't touch any of the other guitars first - the SG with it's MQs gets a whole night of loving to itself...
And, Badgermark, yeah, I agree with you, "struggle" is putting it way too strong for me as well, my bad choice of word, sorry about that! :)
Just one very important 'P.S.' that I should have included in my initial review Andy - is that the M.Qs are VERY sensitive to the pick material being used. I get those warm tones because I use B.K.P's heaviest celluloid plectrum. I think it is a bout 1.21mm - but definately feels / sounds softer than one of the same thickness but of another brand name.
When I tried a packet of the Dunlop 'Eric Johnson' JazzIII type picks, the sound from the M.Qs was very bright indeed. Nothing offensive to the ears - but enogh to prove to me that M.Qs are a base material on which we must experiment with all parameters '
So ...
If Tim sent you one of the thicker plectrums in with your pickups, try playing with that for warmth - or a Dunlop Jazz III type plecky to really bring out the 'snap' .
The thing that surprised me initially , is that Eric Johnson is meant to be a 'smooth' sounding player. I then remembered that Larry Carlton and Dave Gilmour both play on the bridge pickup a lot - so it is of course that 'alchemy' of balance between ALL the factors in the tone chain that get the end result.
By the way , I.M.H.O your penchant for Brian Robertson and Paul Kossoff shows very good taste ... 8)
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great review fourth feline - not helping my gas for a semi - hollow though :x :lol:
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Just received my neck MQ and installed it. First impression is that its quite similar to a neck humbucker. It just has a bit more brightness/twang to it. Not sure if this is the sound I wanted yet but I've only been able to have my amp quiet so I cant really make a good judgement til later when my sister goes out so I can get the amp a bit louder.
edit - just got to crank the amp, I love this pickup :) Great tones, it just sounds like a singlecoil on steroids to me which is good.
Heres a quick clip though the playing is cr@p http://download.yousendit.com/DD0F513E75D33B0B
so how much different does the bridge one sound?
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Just received my neck MQ and installed it. First impression is that its quite similar to a neck humbucker. It just has a bit more brightness/twang to it. Not sure if this is the sound I wanted yet but I've only been able to have my amp quiet so I cant really make a good judgement til later when my sister goes out so I can get the amp a bit louder.
edit - just got to crank the amp, I love this pickup :) Great tones, it just sounds like a singlecoil on steroids to me which is good.
Heres a quick clip though the playing is cr@p http://download.yousendit.com/DD0F513E75D33B0B
so how much different does the bridge one sound?
I find the bridge sounds very similar, but you can still hear it is the bridge pickup. The bridge sounding a tad more nasal and focused ( in the way I have them set ) . As I mentioned at the start, think of the neck sounding like the sound " Aaaaaahhh " - and the neck will sound like " Oooohh".
However, when using brighter E.Q. / harder pick material / perhaps lowering the pickup further from the strings it can sound like a Telecaster bridge if needed - quite machine gun like.
The overall answer is still " it will sound similar " - but with such an amount of variation available from just the neck pickup, you will appreciate that perhaps the most accurate answer is " what do you you want it to sound like " ? - as the same tone seeking / adjusting rules apply to both positions.
I would still recommend that one day you get one and find out, - as I feel that these ( B.K.P versions ) are true classics of the pickup world - and will never loose personal or financial value.
I would still be interested ( due to the percieved diffrence in our styles /uses ) - as to what pickup height you ended up with - and to what tonal effect. :)
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I think I see what you mean. I may give the bridge one a go, but the Rebel Yell I have in there at the minute sounds pretty nice.
At the minute I have it raised so that when I press down on the 22nd fret, theres a gap of about 3mm between the string and polepieces on either end, maybe a little closer on the treble end. It sounds pretty good to me now. Does adjusting the individual polepieces affect much? I just have them left flat at the minute.
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great review fourth feline - not helping my gas for a semi - hollow though :x :lol:
Thank you , :D
I must confess that the semi - hollow is proving to be the most intimate and addictive guitar I have touched in decades. It has even surpased the Telecaster in the 'enigma' stakes. As I found myself, you can upgrade / have a very good one at a fraction of Gibson prices. It would still be nice to own the USA version one day, but because of what it symbolises as a collector's piece, not because the competition ( equiped with B.K.P of course ) sounds inadequate. :)
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I think I see what you mean. I may give the bridge one a go, but the Rebel Yell I have in there at the minute sounds pretty nice.
At the minute I have it raised so that when I press down on the 22nd fret, theres a gap of about 3mm between the string and polepieces on either end, maybe a little closer on the treble end. It sounds pretty good to me now. Does adjusting the individual polepieces affect much? I just have them left flat at the minute.
They say the polepiece height setting do make a difference, but on a shallow radius gutar I have experimeted - and ended up leaving them as Tim sends them out. The only exception being where I may have a pure nickel wound low 'E' in a mahoghany guitar - and therefore lift that polepiece just a little more for optimum detail / response.
Pickup height wise, ( measured in the same way as you do ) I have settled on 1.6 mm all round - as I like the slight compression I am hearing at that point. I can hear how there is more 'air' in the sound at 3mm though.
I do understand why you would want to keep the 'Rebel Yell' in the bridge though ; a definate contrast AND the M.Q. neck seems to sit very nicely with other B.K.P models.
The best of both worlds... :D
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Attempting to attach a photo folks ... :oops:
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I think 3mm-ish seems to be about right, it has a bit of thickness without being too smooth for me.
Do you still have the Laney amp? I'd like to hear what you think of the bridge MQ with the gain wound up a bit for some rock tones, if you're at all into that sort of thing :twisted:
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I think 3mm-ish seems to be about right, it ha s a bit of thickness without being too smooth for me.
Do you still have the Laney amp? I'd like to hear what you think of the bridge MQ with the gain wound up a bit for some rock tones, if you're at all into that sort of thing :twisted:
Hi Tom, I still have the Laney amp, but have no place to 'wind it up ' these days. When the neighbours are all out, I must remember to at least experiment through the amp modeler in my G-Dec Junior. Having said that, I'm not your best man for 'Rock' tones ... :roll:
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Glad we're using the same method of measuring pickup height - I was going to ask that.
Anyway, I've had two chances to adjust the MQs in my SG, the other night, and this morning now all the neighbours are up (well, they probably are now :twisted: )
Conclusion: these are stunning pups... (now I just have to make my mind how I prefer them adjusted).
I did have them quite far from the strings originally, but at the end of thursday night, they were both set at approx 3mm (slightly lower on the bass side).
3mm gives me a gorgeous neck tone, utterly gorgeous, but turning it up this morning, the bridge was a touch thin in comparison. Nice sound, but for me, the difference between the neck and bridge was just TOO different! After much head scratching and "what is it that Philly hears then?!" I reread all this thread again.
I decided to bite the bullet and push the pups much closer to the strings than I like for humbuckers and fender-singles - ie I went for that 1- 2 mm range that FF recommends above.
WHoa!! :D
I'm set at about 2mm now...
You're right FF - "chewy" is the word, isn't it?
I haven't lost too much of what I liked about the neck at 3mm, but to balance the bridge, it's worth it.
The bridge, moving from 3mm to 2mm has lost none of its bite, but has thickened up nicely.
And at last, Philly, I can hear what you're talking about: it's only a subtle difference between neck and bridge now - luckily much to my taste. And again FF's "ooohh" and "aaahh" description nails it.
I have to say, I am amazed at the variation (compared to HBs and other SCs) in character that you can get with height adjustment on these pickups .
I'm going to leave them at this height for a week or so, and then perhaps experiment with a smidgeon lower if I miss that "air" in the neck too much (I suspect I won't).
The impression I'm coming away with from this morning's fiddling is "closer to the strings" if you want more humbucker-type behaviour from your MQs, "further from the strings" takes you more towards single-coil-on-steroids territory...
In my mind, this seems to fit with how I've understood everything you've said above FF - many thanks for the help!
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The impression I'm coming away with from this morning's fiddling is "closer to the strings" if you want more humbucker-type behaviour from your MQs, "further from the strings" takes you more towards single-coil-on-steroids territory...
In my mind, this seems to fit with how I've understood everything you've said above FF - many thanks for the help!
Cheers Andy ! - glad you are enjoying them too. We have also found the same outcomes re : getting a 'chewy thick humbucker' sound close to the strings - and 'single coil on steroids' sounds further away from the strings.
The interesting thing is that after I had decided that my favourite setting for the M.Qs was 1/16" ( 1.5 mm ) , I also tried the same on my Alnico IV Stormy Mondays in an S.G. Standard. I got a similar 'thickening' effect, without loss of clarity at 1.5mm. Having said that, AIV Stormys are probably the most 'E.Q. Balanced' pickup out thereafter the M.Qs.
Perhaps it is just the way I like things to sound, but it was the M.Qs that first showed me it was possible.
Thanks for letting us share your findings Andy . :D