Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: elavd on June 29, 2008, 05:50:23 PM
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Hello again ;)
I would like you to help me choose the right Strat set for me:
I am looking for a Strat pickups set that will sound (as close as possible) like Robert Cray's and John Mayer's strat sound.
So, I am looking for a strat sound that is full sounding, not harsh, but still CLEAN and with great QUACK in the 2 & 4 positions.
I play mainly funky/soul music, and so I won’t play with high gain.
I prefer to have a crystal clear sounding guitar (with low output pickups) that could also be played with a mild overdrive.
My main playing positions are
* The 2nd (bridge+middle pickup): quack sound (Mark Knopfler, Edge, Phil Manzanera)
* The 5th (neck pickup): full sounding sound (SRV, John Mayer etc)
Also I prefer the middle pickup to be RWRP.
Maybe a list of 4 songs (with clean strat sounds) could help you understand the sound that I am looking for:
1) Robert Cray - Time makes two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h53va2AIuYU)
2) John Mayer - Vultures (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBXveAkcars)
3) Dire Straits (Mark Knopfler) - Six Blade Knife (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWLjRiLCQk&feature=related) (Unbelievable Quack!!! position 2)
4) John Mayer - City Love (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEE2_RYyVYk&feature=related)
So which of your sets do you suggest me??
Thanks in advance,
Elias
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Mother's Milk all the way through.
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I saw the description of this set and it says: "hot vintage sound"...
This makes me a little sceptical about these pickups, because I think that hot pickups are not very suitable for a nice clear strat sound...
However, as I can see from the specs, the output of the "Mother's Milk" set, is not so high, so they are not so hot after all... :wink:
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I saw the description of this set and it says: "hot vintage sound"...
This makes me a little sceptical about these pickups, because I think that hot pickups are not very suitable for a nice clear strat sound...
However, as I can see from the specs, the output of the "Mother's Milk" set, is not so high, so they are not so hot after all... :wink:
I had a mothers milk set, and they are anything but hot. Give a proper, clear yet slightly bigger tone than the apaches for example. I think they will suit you fine.
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Do they have enough "quack" in the 2 & 4 positions?
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I have Apaches and Mother's Milks. In an alder bodied guitar, the Mother's Milks have tons more of that woody quacky, slightly acoustic sound than the Apaches. Construction wise, they are based on mid 60s Fenders - so they do the Robert Cray/Curtis Mayfield/Hendrix Little Wing/Wind Cries Mary tone perfectly. John Mayer's tone is coming from that stable as well.
The neck and middle on my Mother's milks are 5.8k, the bridge 6.5k whereas my Apaches are 5.7k neck and middle and 6.4k bridge - so not a lot of difference on 'heat' (you can always ask BKP to underwind them as well). The difference is the Alnico V magnets and the use of plain enamel wire.
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I'm also going with Mother's Milks here. If you get the RWRP middle you will get more quack, though the regular wind sound authentic in the split positions.
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Not a suggestion... just an observation:
No-one ever seems to recommend the Sultans in these situations. I feel a bit sorry for the poor little chaps.
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Not a suggestion... just an observation:
No-one ever seems to recommend the Sultans in these situations. I feel a bit sorry for the poor little chaps.
I also noticed it!
In fact, when I started this thread, I was feeling pretty sure that most of the people would suggest me the Sultans, because I mentioned the magic word "quack" in my specs... :)
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In my view there is a distinction between 'spank' and 'quack'
50s strats have spank not quack. Buddy Holly did not have quack but he has spank a-plenty. Apache (the tune) is spank not quack.
In my ears, Curtis Mayfield is the ur-master of quack, Jimi was his padowan.
The above could be bollox, however.
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In my view there is a distinction between 'spank' and 'quack'
50s strats have spank not quack. Buddy Holly did not have quack but he has spank a-plenty. Apache (the tune) is spank not quack.
In my ears, Curtis Mayfield is the ur-master of quack, Jimi was his padowan.
The above could be bollox, however.
I do see where you're coming from, but the Curtis/Jimi thing makes me think of quack with a wah, for that kind of "vowel" sound (I'm no expert on Mayfield, I must admit).
What about a clean quack? Steve Cropper maybe? But that was Tele...
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One more question (because I lean towards Mother's Milk pups):
Do you think that the base plate, improves the sound bridge pickup? Is it worthy?
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I have MM-I was looking for a "strat" tone, not a beefed up iwannabeap-90 tone...it delivers..now my strat sounds like a strat!!
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One more question (because I lean towards Mother's Milk pups):
Do you think that the base plate, improves the sound bridge pickup? Is it worthy?
It makes it a big bigger. Adds bass without removing treble. I say go for it!
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But if you want a traditional Strat sound you don't need the baseplate. The bridge pickup in most BKP sets is already overwound a bit to compensate for the thinner sound in the bridge position.
I think we get a bit over-excited about these baseplates - Fender never used them. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them; just that they're hardly essential.
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But if you want a traditional Strat sound you don't need the baseplate. The bridge pickup in most BKP sets is already overwound a bit to compensate for the thinner sound in the bridge position.
I think we get a bit over-excited about these baseplates - Fender never used them. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them; just that they're hardly essential.
Are the baseplates permanently installed, or they can be removed easily?
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Not 100% sure, but I think they're basically just held in place by the potting wax, so they can be removed easily.
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Well MM's seem to be ok but looking at the thing technically the Apaches would be closer because they use Formvar insulation, just like all the pre-CBS Strat pickups. Maybe you could discuss Alnico 5 Apaches with Tim.
Jimi also used a pre-CBS Strat for his whole first album.
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Maybe you could discuss Alnico 5 Apaches with Tim.
I've sent him an email, but he seems to be away of work till 10 of July...
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Send a private message to Chris R, or give them a ring on the number from the email, friendly, but beware they don't have real Devonshire accents :P
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Not a suggestion... just an observation:
No-one ever seems to recommend the Sultans in these situations. I feel a bit sorry for the poor little chaps.
I actually have a Stormy Monday/Sultans HSS set, but haven't fitted it yet because I have been busy with other stuff, and so it is one pickup that I have never heard. Unless I've heard a pickup, I won't recommend it as I like t know that I am giving good advice. I will try to pull my finger out this weekend and get them fitted. Perhaps then you will see them recommended more often!
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So does that complete your BKP collection Phil?
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'Jimi also used a pre-CBS Strat for his whole first album'
Parts of Are You Experienced were recorded with Noel Redding's 60s era Telecaster, including all of Hey Joe and Purple Haze.
Jimi also used a 64 transition logo Strat (which he later set fire to)
Fender occasionally bought plain enamel in the early 60s and moved over to plain enamel wire in their Strat pickups totally in around March 1964 - which was pre-CBS (just, as the CBS acquisition was early 1965). The transition logo would have had plain enamel wire.
Its real sad I know this stuff.
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Hi Elliott,
would the MM in the neck mix well with an Apache in the middle position?
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Its real sad I know this stuff.
So true! :D
But useful to the rest of us:
So, theoretically, if I have a 62 re-issue, and I wanted to get myself "authentic vibes" it's really a toss-up between Apache and MM?
I actually have two of them. One has the ITs in at the moment, but I might be considering replacing the Texas Specials residing in the other one, looking for lower "vintage" output.
So far my leaning has been towards Apache because the ITs are already V, the Apache is III, people rave about them, etc, etc... and towards the MMs because I thought that that's more likely to be the kind of pickup that what would have been in a real 62...
(One guitar is a JV Squier with a "liberated" basswood body - ie the poly's gone - the other is a recent Japan Non-Export with an Alder body. The IT's are in the alder at the moment)
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Tomcaster: I have tried a bridge Apache middle Mother's Milk combo and that worked OK -, but I can't vouch for other positions, especially given that the hotter bridge.may have levelled things out - With regard to P90s I was told by Mr Mills that A3 and A5 aren't great bed fellows.
AndyR - I found the Mother's Milks did not work in my JV: after a year I swapped out the MMs for Apaches - as Basswood is a middy-warm sounding wood the Milks were too dark and emphasised the middle range too much. The Apaches cured this, the less middy Alnico III made the JV really sing - the JV is now my main guitar and the poor Fender only comes out for quacking cameos. If you wanted an early 60s tone in a JV I would go Apache as the basswood contributes to make the sound a bit fuller
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What do you think about the following combo:
neck: Apache Alnico V
middle & bridge: Apache Alnico III
the Alnico V Apache would give you enough bite and brightness for the neck, while middle & bridge would be a tad mellower.
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Thanks for that Elliot - it seems to fit with the reponse I get from the Texas Specials in there (basswood) at the moment.
Would I be right in thinking that you suspect the ITs in the basswood might suffer the same way? One of my thoughts is to make the JV the "blues" strat for Rory/SRV type noodling using the ITs - obviously this is in my power to try out already, the possible darkness might actually be what I want, certainly for the Rory end of it.
Then the newer strat (which is my favourite, by the way) would become the "all-rounder" - I've just realised that it's actually this one, the alder, that my Apache/MM question really relates to.
I'm certain that as an "all-rounder" I'll still be able to get passable Rory/SRV out of it, but I'm looking for a more "classic" strat tone as well now - the only example I can think of at the moment is Steve Gaine's strat work on Lynyrd Skynyrd's "One More From the Road" and "Freebird the Movie".
Don't get me wrong (anyone considering ITs) I am very close to it already with the ITs , but I just have sneaking suspicion that Apache or MM might be the "magic bullet", as it were!
And seeing as the ITs appear (to me) to be a hotter version of MM, I lean towards the Apaches... (and it is Fiesta Red, after all :lol: , occasionally screaming "Hank" at me, even if it does have a rosewood board)
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Jimi also used a 64 transition logo Strat (which he later set fire to)
That very same guitar is also in Guitar and Bass magazine this month....
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So does that complete your BKP collection Phil?
No - still don't have all the Tele pickups or a Sinner! TBH I probably won't get all the Tele's because the Yardbird set are almost the same as my 62 set, and now there is a new 52 (I think that's the name), blackguard set coming out, I will probably get that. Not sure on the Sinner at the moment either.
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Jimi also used a 64 transition logo Strat (which he later set fire to)
That very same guitar is also in Guitar and Bass magazine this month....
Is that the Monterry one? (have I spelt that right?) Or did he do it more than once?
What state is it in now, and do they have the empty tin of lighter fluid as well? :lol:
I spose I could get the magazine to find out... :roll:
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Do you think that the MM's are the closest sounding set to this clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzb-Pbtr1U4
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yes, I love that clip & john mayer has a cracking tone on there. I have a set of MM with the bridge & middle with a baseplate & they absolutely kick ass! You can elicit any tone you want from them quite easily & they gave a beautiful woody punch to the sound.
I think I maybe rambling on again...bottom line, the MM are perfect for what you want!
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Now playing: Rod Stewart and the Faces - Miss Judy's Farm (The Faces) (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/rod+stewart+and+the+faces/track/miss+judys+farm+(the+faces))
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)
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Can't help you on that one elavd - no personal experience of MMs (and I can't watch the clip at the mo anyway - at work :roll: )
However, I've just reread the entire thread - and my gut feeling is that MM is what you need. And I'm also begining to think it's what I will need if I put them in my alder strat (but Apaches if I put them in my basswood strat - that has more mid "honk" to it accoustically). I'm bassing this on me looking for the "quack" rather than the "spank" as described earlier. And from your original post I think you are too...
You'll get there, don't worry - and I think you'll actually be happy whichever way you choose, they are more versatile than this nerve-wracking (but enjoyable) selection process makes us think.
I can tell you from my experience with the Irish Tours, that the BKP singles are stunning. I've been mainly a strat player for nearly 30 years, and the ITs are just gorgeous. They almost cover all bases for me, but my main thing is slightly hotter strat-player type blues, so the ITs were the obvious starting point for me. What they have done is open up my finger vibrato and other techniques - what you put in actually makes a difference with BKPs - and have reduced the amount of gain I find myself using to get the same feel as before. Hence me getting more interested in styles where perhaps more "vintage" might be handy.
If I didn't have another strat (which I wasn't planning on upgrading) which might take the ITs, then I wouldn't even be considering swapping the ITs out of my favourite. They almost do what you're asking, and for me, they do it close enough if they were my only option.
(EDIT: While writing this, Horsehead answered - I beat you for rambling :roll: - and I nearly said "there's a guy on here with MMs in a 62 re-issue, I reckon he'd know..." :D Looks like I need to watch the clip when I get home)
(EDIT 2: Or is an actual 62 Horsehead???! I never considered that...)
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I have a HSS set in a 64 Bravewood strat that uses a Rebel Yell and 2 mothers milks. The Bravewood has an alder body and 'curved' rosewood fretboard (like the originals). The MM's sound great in it, you can get the Knopfler tone and the old Hank Marvin tone too. My Apaches are in a 57 strat with a maple neck and alder body, they also sound great but are a little warmer sounding than the MM's. I also have a set of Apaches with baseplates in a Swamp Ash body with Afromosa neck. They are the Dave Gilmour sound, very nice rounded tones with more bottom end push in them than the regular Apaches. My Irish Tours are in a hollow strat with a quilt maple cap and a maple tele neck. They are quite bright, but do work well in this guitar. Overall though I would lean towards the MM's for what you are looking for.
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I wish Andy! :lol: No it's one of the Jap reissues a beaut in itself
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Now playing: John Mayer - Your Body Is a Wonderland (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/john+mayer/track/your+body+is+a+wonderland)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)
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I know what you mean Horsehead! Mine's a Jap re-issue as well, and I'd just assumed yours was a re-issue of some sort, but then I suddenly wondered...
Anyway, elavd - I've had a chance to watch that clip (and others, not come across John Mayer before - very tasty).
Not wanting to confuse you :lol: - that's pretty much the tone I'm getting from ITs in my alder 62 re-issue when I go for a clean sound! Like PhilKing says for ITs, I'm getting just a little more top end than I can hear on those clips, but I prefer it that way anyway (I've always set the amp for "bright" and then use the guitar's vol/tone a lot to control the amount of bite I actually deliver).
So: for me - I'm reaching the conclusion that I have what I want already! (that opinion will change I'm sure... :roll: )
For you: it does sound like the MMs are where you want to start.
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Just because I mentioned John Mayer's tone, I would like to share with you this question that I've got in mind for a long time:
Fender mentions on Mayer's signature strat:
# "Big Dipper" single-coil Stratocaster® pickups with special
# "scooped" mid range voicing to meet John Mayer's specifications.
Doesn't "Scooped mid range voicing" mean less mids?
If so, why do I hear a plenty of midrange frequencies on Mayers tone?
What's going "wrong" here?
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J.Mayer has a beautiful sound.I have the Crossroad DVD and there is a fantastic live version of "Gravity"..(About his tone,he does use a lot of TubeScreamer for soloing=more mids)
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Well I just had a revelation. I fitted the Sultan HSS set to my strat clone and the tone is great. If you like the sound of 'Down to the Waterline' or 'Lady Writer', then they have it in spades. The Stormy Monday bridge works really nicely too.
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Well I just had a revelation. I fitted the Sultan HSS set to my strat clone and the tone is great. If you like the sound of 'Down to the Waterline' or 'Lady Writer', then they have it in spades. The Stormy Monday bridge works really nicely too.
AGH! I knew this would happen when you put them in...
And, after I thought I was satisified with what I've got...
Don't tempt me!!! :wink:
As you've picked those songs as reference, I'm guessing that they'd work quite well in basswood then? Less likely to suffer the MM "darkness"?
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The strat clone they are in has a basswood body with a maple neck with ebony fingerboard. I was playing the guitar again yesterday and setting up the pickup heights and have to say that I am very taken with the sound. I have a couple of other setup things to do to my 57 strat (with apaches), since I had the neck off it to take to Bravewood for John to make a clone for me, but once I have that together I will pull out the set and make some comparisons. Listening to them against Apaches with bassplates, they have a more scooped sound but not thin. I guess it is the AII tone coming in again. I am really tempted to get a full set of them though, so I can hear what the bridge pickup sounds like.
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Sigh...
GAS
(and no money to relieve it this time...)
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Maybe you could discuss Alnico 5 Apaches with Tim.
I've sent him an email, but he seems to be away of work till 10 of July...
Hello again ;)
Tim finally answered my email on July 11th, but I was out of town (and without a PC) 8)
So he recommended me the Apache set!
I was ready to order the Mother's Milk set, but his suggestion put me again in a dilemma... :?
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After a successful change (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14218.msg184296#msg184296) of pickups on my ES335 guitar, I return to this thread again...
As you can understand I plan to replace the pickups on my strat too with a BK set :)
But as you may remember, most of you suggested me Mother's Milk set for a 60's strat sound (I have an alder body+rosewood strat replica), but Tim suggested me the Apache set.
I would like to remind you that I am looking for a low output set with great quack in 2 & 4 possitions that would sound something like these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P9-XAnI59U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFw0WG1yFlY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4tXn21RoMQ
So, what do you suggest me?
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I'd tend towards Tim's advice-but than I am biased towards Apaches for no reason than I simply love mine.
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38thBeatle do you have them on a 60s style strat?
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Almost, mine is a 1970's with r/w board.
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I'd like to add one more specification for the sound that I am looking...
I want a USABLE bridge pickup!!!
All the bridge pickups that I've tried so far are too harsh and too treble to my ears...But still I want that transparent and acoustic sounding 2nd position (bridge+middle pickup).
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I'm not really that much further on than last time we were discussing it - Still got ITs in alder/rosewood 62 reissue, still wondering about Apaches/MMs in this or another strat one day. However, I have recently switched to pure nickel strings, and the ITs are getting me ALL the sounds I want at the moment. Pure nickel has tamed some of the top end and given it a more organic vintage sound, it's gorgeous.
Not having tried them myself, I have in the back of my mind (possibly from this thread) that Apaches are for the "spank" end of the strat sound spectrum, and MMs are for the "quack" end of it.
I think I'm with 38th, if Tim advised them I'd lean towards Apaches at the moment...
BUT! Then I thought I'd check the clips you just posted, so I stopped writing and watched them - 1st clip, I thought yeah, I'd guess Apaches for that... and then the 2nd and 3rd clip - er, that's my ITs right now :lol: (they don't seem to make my fingers move quite that well though... :roll:)
EDIT: Bridge IT is the best I've used - in fact I use it on it's own quite a bit. I'm fairly certain all the BKP bridges will be pretty useful. I've got a RW/RP middle for the "quack" in 2 and 4, but I think next time I'd go for standard, RWRP gives you plenty quack, but it's more "closed" sounding than I remember my old pickups being in 2 and 4.
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AndyR to tell you the truth, I have a feeling that the ITs will be too hot for my taste...
I want to have a clear sounding set of pickups, and I think that the ITs sound best when used with overdrive...
Am I wrong?
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I wish I was geared up to do clips at the moment.
Right now I'm sat at the keyboard, doodling on the strat between posts. I'm going through a vox tonelab set up as an AC30 (non-topboost), through powered studio monitors.
I tend to run a strat vol control at 8 or so (so I set up an amp accordingly) and then I've got 8-10 for "more", 4-5 for "clean".
Right at the moment, turning up to 10 on the middle pickup sounds like the 2nd clip you posted except clearer and less distortion/overdrive. Turning it down to 6-7 it sounds like Mark Knopfler but the amp model is set up a bit too bassy for it. Pushing it on to the bridge, up to 10 and digging in with the pick, it's stinging "old fender" chicago blues (not quite as stinging as tele bridge, but close).
I bought the ITs to do Rory Gallagher and SRV, and they do the job - from really clean SRV on Texas Flood to Rory's dirtiest early 80s Marshall sound. But for my own noodlings I've ended up getting progressively cleaner when I play my strat because it's so "stratty". My desire to get another strat with Apaches/MMs has died down since a few months back, because this one's started doing what I thought I'd want the new kit for.
I'm kind of in the same boat as 38th (except he's actually gigging) - I love my first choice of pickup, and they are proving so versatile, that I have to pipe up when I know "mine" will do it.
Funnily enough though, this IT'd strat is NOT the guitar that I pickup when I want overdriven fender - I've got a tele with Blackguards that does it far far better. I'd say the ITs are what they're classed as ,"vintage hot", not out-and-out rocking machines.
I think if someone gave you ITs, you'd love them. But my gut feeling is that you do want either Apaches or MMs - and I suspect it's Apaches. It's just that you keep posting clips with tones that my ITs are doing :lol:
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I think if someone gave you ITs, you'd love them. But my gut feeling is that you do want either Apaches or MMs - and I suspect it's Apaches. It's just that you keep posting clips with tones that my ITs are doing :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Watched those clips and its either Apaches or Mother's Milks in an alder bodied rosewood guitar. I'd say Mother's Milks myself for that tone.
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Do you believe that the Apaches have a more "rounded" sound than the Mother's Milk?
Also, what do you think about th bridge pickups of either set? Do they sound too ...trebly? Or better, which one is more usable?