Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Catalyst77 on July 08, 2008, 10:14:34 AM
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I have to confess that although ive played guitar for 12 years ive never really practiced standing up. I've recenctly been lucky enough to acquire a feline les paul, as jonathon said i picked a great girlfriend! (she bought it for me).
And i though that as i had a top quality guitar maybe i should put some effort into being a better guitarist. Ive always played super strats in the past (esp's etc) but i'm finding the conversion a bit tricky. When I practice standing up with the les paul i'm trying to play with good form (i.e. thumb behind the neck) with the guitar at about belt hight (not too high not too low)
I'm finding that a lot of the time my wrist ends up being bent about 90 degrees and after about 30mins it becomes increasingly uncomfortable - almost like its going numb! Is this normal - i.e. part of the process of getting better, or am i doing something wrong?
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I dont know
But your girlfriend is clearly the finest woman to grace this earth. If shes hot as well, then I have to kill you. Nothing personal.
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"Belt height" is quite vague; which part of the guitar's body is at belt height?
One good way to target your problem is just to play the guitar at a different angle, i.e. with the neck pointing up further, to bring it closer to you.
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Why do you need to keep your thumb on the back of the neck? its good form to transfer between back / wrapped over depending on the style.
Why don't you try sitting down, and do the strap up so it is high, stand up, and play like that.
drop it down a notch every week/month or two until you are happy.
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Sounds to me like you're playing it too low. What looks good usually isn't the best for playing.
As Indy says, try holding the neck at a steeper angle and see if that helps.
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Can you play standing up with a superstrat? A friend of mine had a problem vaguely similar to this, and he raised his guitar and he was fine.
Try raising it to a beatles height, just to see if it is more comfortable, then you could gradually lower it until it starts to get uncomfortable. :)
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Its actually the same height that i play the esp. i.e. the top horn sort of just reaches the belly button. Ive been doing a lot of legato stuff to improve my hammer on pull-offs and theres no way to get to the higher strings without bringing the thumb behind the neck.
It is kind of frustrating cause the ESP is much easier to play, but just doesnt sound anywhere near as good.
I dont mind Persevering for the sake of better technique - i just dont want to do any permanent damage!
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practising standing up is a good idea! :) probably the neck sticks out less compared a strat, so you need to hold your hand closer to your body. to me then it seems like the best idea would be to try holding the guitar at a different angle.
which lion did you get by the way?
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As with any other physical activity, STOP AS SOON AS IT BECOMES PAINFUL!!!!!
The fact that your wrist is bent shouldn't be causing you any pain, but you might have a pinched nerve which is being exasperated by the way you are standing and the weight of the guitar strap pushing down on said nerve. (Very common)
If this happens every time you play standing up, you might need to simply stretch your spine out before playing, I know that many guitar players hunch when playing standing up.
If it feels like the pain is muscular in origin, you should stretch your wrists out slowly prior to playing, and run em under warm water for a few minutes. This will loosen the hand muscles and warm em up.
You might want to start off playing standing up for shorter periods of time and build up, too.
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I had this problem too. Then I saw Petrucci play. Problem solved.
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I had this problem too. Then I saw Petrucci play. Problem solved.
Care to elaborate on that?!
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Not much to elaborate on really, just started holding it higher and putting my left leg on a stand (or monitor) for the difficult parts. It's really not possible for me to stretch comfortably with the guitar hanging at belt height even though Vai and Gilbert does it. You also get your wrist at the same angle as you do sitting down which makes the change from sitting to standing a whole lot easier.
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i'm perfectly capable of standing up without practising..
sorry.
anyway, i agree with ben, if it hurts, stop, in case you do some damage. practising standing up is a good idea though as if you only ever practice sitting down, you'll find you struggle to play standing up.
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Hmm
I have fiddled around with the angles a bit (i.e. slanting the neck vertically slash style while standing on a make belive monitor) its not really pain more of the feeling you get when you fall asleep on your hand!
If you try and bend your hand as close to your wrist as possible for as long as you can you'll get it !! thats the angle i need to reach the higher strings up the board withought knocking or impinging on other strings.
I guess i could move the guitar up a bit but i was hoping for more of a slash look than George formby!!
practising standing up is a good idea! :) probably the neck sticks out less compared a strat, so you need to hold your hand closer to your body. to me then it seems like the best idea would be to try holding the guitar at a different angle.
which lion did you get by the way?
It's the amber lion with a Riff Raff in the Bridge and Mule in the neck, sounds sweet, its really resonant and articulate. I was actually there to check up on a custom build i commissioned lasted year and made the mistake of picking it up.
Its the fifth one down on this link.
http://www.felineguitars.com/gallery/guitars.html
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That sounds really odd, theres no reason your wrist should be at that angle :? My only guitars are les pauls and I dont have to bend my wrist like that to play.
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Damn you! I was hoping to have a play on that guitar on Saturday, as I am heading down to Croydon.
I don't understand why you are so keen to keep the thumb on the back of the neck
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13204.0
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Its mainly a problem playing across 5 frets fro legato work; i'll post some pics later to try and show what i mean.
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I've always found that playing with my wrist bent at an extreme angle like that creates an uncomfortably "tight" feeling across the back of my hand. I'm no doctor, but it can't be good for you - it must put extra strain on the tendons, or restrict the blood supply, or.... something. Maybe it just limits muscle movement a bit. But surely it must be a good thing to have your wrist as straight as possible?
Playing with your thumb over the neck helps, but it's no good for barre chords unless you're one of those people who can fret the low strings with your thumb (I can't). And playing with the neck at an angle is OK for the lower frets, but it doesn't help when you try to play at the top of the neck.
I think a shorter strap is the only answer, even if it doesn't look very rock'n'roll.
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I think I'm with Philly Q on this one - you've got to hang it where it's comfortable to play everything you want to play.
The other day I tried wearing my guitar where I used to have it years ago - not exactly round the knees, but heading that way - and I could hardly play at all! And also, for some reason it doesn't look as rock & roll on me as it used to :roll:
EDIT: I also meant to say "great looking guitar" - I lusted after it when Jonathan posted it a while back, but I didn't dare hop on the bus to see him, and get some "bridge stuff", just in case I enquired about it, ended up trying it and liking it! Really hope you get comfortable playing it. :D
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And also, for some reason it doesn't look as rock & roll on me as it used to :roll:
Overhanging beergut? :?
:lol:
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congratulations - that amber lion is a really great guitar! it hit a spot with me also, lucky you brought it!
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And also, for some reason it doesn't look as rock & roll on me as it used to :roll:
Overhanging beergut? :?
:lol:
No, curry-and-sunday-roast-gut!!
:lol:
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I used to want to play with the guitar lower, playing well is more important to me now, and because of the way I hold the pick, the tone suffers if I have it lower because of the picking angle, I'm also a thumb around the middle of the neck ish kind of guy
I have the strap set on my V to pretty much the exact same height as when I'm sat down
whatever height you decide to go with, I find most people have the pointy end in line with the top of the shoulder
if I can play something sitting down, without looking over the guitar, then I have a pretty good chance of playing it just as well standing up
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Beautiful guitar-great purchase. I think that you have the guitar too low.You referred to the upper horn being level with your belly button. I just put my Strat on and the upper horn is level with my sternum.I lowered it to my belly button and I couldn't play like that for long.Most of my playing is standing up gigging. I'd sacrifice the cool looks for functionality personally.
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If mine wasn't the 4th one down in the link I'd be extremely jealous.
My Feline has a very different neck to my other guitars and over the last 5 and a half weeks since picking her up I've been through a similar situation but have ended up with a stronger playing hand.
Give it a few more weeks and see how you feel then; it may just be a different neck means you place pressure on different areas of muscles and tendons. In a few weeks these areas may get stronger and the problem might go away. Just be careful to warm up in the meantime.
PS
hmmm..... having thought about. I'm still extremely jealous. I'm greedy and want your guitar as well as mine :)
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If mine wasn't the 4th one down in the link I'd be extremely jealous.
My Feline has a very different neck to my other guitars and over the last 5 and a half weeks since picking her up I've been through a similar situation but have ended up with a stronger playing hand.
Give it a few more weeks and see how you feel then; it may just be a different neck means you place pressure on different areas of muscles and tendons. In a few weeks these areas may get stronger and the problem might go away. Just be careful to warm up in the meantime.
PS
hmmm..... having thought about. I'm still extremely jealous. I'm greedy and want your guitar as well as mine :)
Ha Ha
I know what you mean - i quite like the look of that Gothic SG seven String!
I try and tell myself I can only play one at a time and too many is just a waste (like more than a handful) but seriously i'm not convincing myself one bit !
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It's the amber lion with a Riff Raff in the Bridge and Mule in the neck, sounds sweet, its really resonant and articulate.
(http://www.felineguitars.com/spec_sheets/guitar_images/Lion%20Flametop%20fletcher/Lion-Flametop-fletcher500-h.jpg)
Ben - both pickups are Riff Raffs on that guitar
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It's the amber lion with a Riff Raff in the Bridge and Mule in the neck, sounds sweet, its really resonant and articulate.
(http://www.felineguitars.com/spec_sheets/guitar_images/Lion%20Flametop%20fletcher/Lion-Flametop-fletcher500-h.jpg)
Ben - both pickups are Riff Raffs on that guitar
Hmm well thats kind of a relief, i wondered why it sounded so different from my other mule - must be hearing things again.
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It's the amber lion with a Riff Raff in the Bridge and Mule in the neck, sounds sweet, its really resonant and articulate.
(http://www.felineguitars.com/spec_sheets/guitar_images/Lion%20Flametop%20fletcher/Lion-Flametop-fletcher500-h.jpg)
Ben - both pickups are Riff Raffs on that guitar
Hmm well thats kind of a relief, i wondered why it sounded so different from my other mule - must be hearing things again.
Seriously that has got to be the nicest les paul I have ever seen! :o I'd love to hear what the riff raffs sound like in it.
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Its mainly a problem playing across 5 frets fro legato work; i'll post some pics later to try and show what i mean.
If its a reach thing then its highly likely that, as has been said, increasing the angle of the neck is the way to go.
As TO says, though: do NOTHING that is uncomfortable (edit, well, actually, painfull, but well say 'very uncomfortable' too). Looking ever so marginally less cool pales next to damaging yourself and reducing or even ending your ability to play.
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Give it a few more weeks and see how you feel then; it may just be a different neck means you place pressure on different areas of muscles and tendons. In a few weeks these areas may get stronger and the problem might go away. Just be careful to warm up in the meantime.
+1 I sometimes get a wierd feeling in my wrist when playing on my strat after I've been playing on my SG for a while, probs because of the different neck, so maybe it is that you're not used to the different neck shape yet. But as others have said stop playing straight away if you start feeling pain.
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I don't give a flying $%&# what I look like when im playing if the sound coming out is good, strap that bitch up!
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Well Here's a few pics of how low i have the guitar and the angle my wrist is at when i'm doing legato stuff.
I'll prob bring the guitar up a little a bit, take it slow and see if it improves - let me know what you think - input is greatly appreciated!!
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t29/benmartin1977/Pic511.jpg)
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t29/benmartin1977/Pic512.jpg)
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t29/benmartin1977/Pic510.jpg)
I dont know
But your girlfriend is clearly the finest woman to grace this earth. If shes hot as well, then I have to kill you. Nothing personal.
More importantly here's a picture of the misses, i'll let you make your own mind up :lol:
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t29/benmartin1977/7101402012.jpg)
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I'd say get it at least 10cm higher up. It should cover your belly button.
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I'd say get it at least 10cm higher up. It should cover your belly button.
There is definately no SHOULD of what height to play.
I play lower than that, but started out playing just a tad higher than that, I can pretty much play wherever now, but if its any higher than that, I find it annoying.
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After seeing pictures of the guitar and the girlfriend, I can safely say that Catalyst77 is officially the luckiest person on this forum :P
Just to be on topic, your guitar does look a little low. I'd shorten the strap a couple of inches and see how that feels to play. My wrists angle doesnt look too far off that though with the strap a bit higher.
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I think it's very much a personal thing. I play my guitars lower than you Catalyst77 as they feel more comfortable to me. As a bonus I think they look cooler too :wink:
However, if it's causing you pain or discomfort then it's not right for you at it's current height. Raise it up and see if that feels better.
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your arm seems very long... if anything (from looking at that picture, anyway) your arm seems to be bent at the wrist because the guitar is too close to you, rather than too far away.
This might be completely off-base and wrong, but have you tried lowering the guitar? EDIT: or just adjust the angle of your should and/or the neck of the guitar... :?
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your arm seems very long... if anything (from looking at that picture, anyway) your arm seems to be bent at the wrist because the guitar is too close to you, rather than too far away.
He needs a beer belly to help hold the guitar away from him?
I've got one that I could do with getting shot of - cant sell it on ebay really :cry:
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It could be a roundabout way of selling beer on ebay though. You won't get rid of yours but you could certainly give one to someone else. :P
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I've just checked how I have mine, and while it's low when I hold the neck of the guitar around the 3rd to 5th fret area my forearm is parallel to the ground. Yours seems to be sloping downwards?
Try raising your guitar up so your arm is parallel to the floor when playing in the first position.
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Well after a few days of experimenting and mixed results a think its prob a combination of a few things.
Firstly playing the same demanding legato run spanning 5 frets down to the 14th fret for 10 mins (i.e. not moving the hand into a different position as you would do with normal playing) probably didnt help much.
I moved the guitar down about 4-5 inches stiltskin style; which actually in a crazy way was much easier, it was easier to chord and solo but as a result my picking technique really suffered, i couldnt really mute the strings as I wanted to cause i was streching a bit with my right hand.
I moved it up a few inches this def helped - it wasnt as comfortable or natural as shifting it down but gave me greater control.
I also tried bringing the forearm more parallel to the floor which def helped too (thanks twinfan!)
So i guess its a bit comprimise a bit trial an error, but a 100% Perseverance!
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Nice one - hope you find something you're comfortable with soon :)
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[He needs a beer belly to help hold the guitar away from him?
I've got one that I could do with getting shot of - cant sell it on ebay really :cry:
:lol:
nice to hear it's going a bit better, catalyst :)