Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: _tom_ on July 12, 2008, 06:08:06 PM
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I've just ordered a Pig 90 in humbucker size for my Pearl and I've got the coil tap option so I can switch it down to a lower output. I just have standard wiring at the minute though I have the tones disconnected so everything goes to the volume pots. What do I need, and how do I wire it up so the volume knob pulled up will switch to the lower output tap? I'm guessing a 500k push/pull pot to fit an alpha shaft hole is what I'd be after?
I may need to hook up a tone to the bridge one anyway - neck is fine without one and would probably be muddy with one hooked up, but I've never tried a bridge p90 so I dont know what to expect. I found my Rebel Yell a bit muddy with the tone connected, probably due to being a mid-output pickup in an all mahog guitar though?
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Jeebus a pig-90? We need clips of that bad boy! When i had my coil tap in my les paul it was on the tone control, seemed a better idea, easier to adjust volumes an such like.
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Yeah I was gonna get a MQ but I thought I might as well go all out and get a pig 90 :P Aged cover and everything.
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did you ask for a coil tap when you ordered the p90? far as i'm aware, one has to be fitted when you order it, as you have to take a wire off the winding before full winds.
I think so, anyway. It's not like a humbucker where you can normally attach coil splits to any 4-conductor one...
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Yeah I did ask for one, put it in the special requirements box or whatever it's called :)
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standard coil split wiring which involves wiring the middle lug of the switch to the back of the pot(if it has 6 connections then its two rows of 3)
the wire the coil tap switch to one of the other connections, i can never remember which way round it is off the top of my head (especially after a day of tattooing and a fair amount of wiskey) but if you happen to wire the coil tap wire to the bottom lug and its coil tapped when down then wire it to the top lug instead 8)
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Do let us know what it sounds like, i've been considering the exact same pickup (even down to the cover) for my LP, so it'd like to know what you think of it :)
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Thanks for the explanation wez, I sort of know what you're getting at but not quite - need a diagram really!
btw, where can I get a 3PDT switch for cheap? The guys on the BYOC forum reckon I've nackered the switch on mine due to overheating so I'm gonna try installing a fresh one now my soldering skills have improved a little.
Oli, I'll let you know for sure. I'll definitely do some clips - this forum is lacking in the p90 department.
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here is your standard coil split diagram for a humbucker (ignore the colour codes)... you will only have one wire going to the push/pull switch rather than the two shown in the diagram
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/s2170/coilsplit.gif
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Yeah I did ask for one, put it in the special requirements box or whatever it's called :)
ah, sorry, just was making sure. :lol:
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thanks for the diagram wez. So will the one wire from the p90 go to the same lug on the push/pull? Do I then just wire up the pickup as usual (if thats on a volume knob)?
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Tom, here's - surprise surprise - a Seymour Duncan diagram. It's for a Tele with two tapped pickups, so ignore the 3-way switch etc and just look at the push-pull pot.
I don't know how BKP wire the tapped P-90, but it'll either have 3 wires and a bare shield or (maybe) two wires and a braided shield.
Assuming it's the former, the shield and one wire (black?) will go to ground, the other two wires will go to the two outer lugs on one side of the push-pull. The middle lug of the push-pull then goes to the first lug on the volume pot (where the hot wire from a normal humbucker would go).
You should have full power with the switch down and tapped with the switch up.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=tele_2_taps (http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=tele_2_taps)
The problem is, I don't know the colour coding - on the Duncan diagram, black is ground, white is hot and red is the tap wire. BKP may be different - might be worth checking with Twinfan, I know he had a tapped P-90 or MQ.
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I'm getting a bit confused now. Do you just wire it up like a normal pickup to the regular tags on the pot but then put the extra wires on the relevant push/pull tabs?
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You'll get three wires on your pickup if I remember rightly. You wire it pretty much like a normal pickup:
Black to ground
Red to the input of the bottom of the push/pull switch, like a regular pot
My extra wire (green) went to the middle lug on the side of the push/pull. Wiring was easier in my case as I was swaping out the original pickup in a Gordon Smith that was already tapped.
That diagram from Wez is the one to follow :)
(It's simpler than the monstrosity Phil posted :lol:)
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My extra wire (green) went to the middle lug on the side of the push/pull. Wiring was easier in my case as I was swaping out the original pickup in a Gordon Smith that was already tapped.
And the bottom lug of the push-pull to ground?
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So is this right or am I completely wrong here?
(http://i35.tinypic.com/okcqpe.jpg)
edit - just realised thats upside down but the switch would still be the same way round?
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I think the one ABOVE the green wire in your pic, not below, is the one that goes to ground? I'm going from memory though.....
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My extra wire (green) went to the middle lug on the side of the push/pull. Wiring was easier in my case as I was swaping out the original pickup in a Gordon Smith that was already tapped.
And the bottom lug of the push-pull to ground?
Yep, I think so...
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I think the one ABOVE the green wire in your pic, not below, is the one that goes to ground? I'm going from memory though.....
Soon find out - if it turns out to be tapped with the switch in the down position, just move that wire to the other lug.
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So that diagram is basically correct then, maybe bar the ground from the switch to the back of the pot?
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Yep :)
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lets see if i can post from with with the quick reply option??
i think i have it wrong - been a while since i played with a tapped pickup.
the SD diagram posted by philly makes sense.
basically you should have 3 wires if its like a tapped SD,
ground wire
hot wire 1
hot wire 2
the ground wire goes to the back of the pot/ground as usual and the two hot wires go to the top and bottom of the switch - the wire going from the middle lug of the push/pull switch can be treated as a normal single hot wire for that pickup and either goes to a pickup selector or a pickup volume
the switch then simply selects between the two different hot wires/ two different outputs
i was getting confused with stacked humbuckers
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still confused haha. So does the red wire go to the 1st tag on the pot (as per my diagram), or one of the tags on the switch?
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I think if you wire it like a coil-split humbucker (in Wez's diagram), then when the switch is engaged it's shorting the green wire to ground. The red (hot) wire stays where it is, so you've moved the ground.
In the Duncan diagram, the ground wire stays fixed and, as Wez said, the switch is choosing between the red or green wire (then connecting that wire to hot). So in that case you've moved the hot.
Now, I'm not sure about this bit, but I think if the tap was exactly halfway through the coil you'd get the same result either way. However, if the tap is (say) two-thirds of the way through the coil, I think one wiring option will give you two-thirds output when tapped, but the other will only give you one-third.
This isn't helping, is it Tom? :lol: The only thing we're sure about is that black goes to ground. Don't know what to suggest except try it and see. One of them will work!
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ah it sort of makes sense. So if I keep the red on the pots 1st tag then put the green to the switch and another ground to the switch, it'll choose between the two depending which way the switch is pushed?
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Yeah, in one switch position the green is connected to ground, so only the bit of the coil between green and red is working.
In the other switch position green isn't connected to anything so the whole coil from black to red is working.
I think. :?
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sorry for the confusion guys, wiring doesnt always ome naturally to me so i usually end up drawing it out... like this
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/new/pickuptaps.jpg)
i know its a bit rough!!!
the first diagram is a normal pickup with a ground connection and a hot connection... nice and straight forward
the second one is like the SD diagram: the switch basically decides between between the first part of the coil or all the coil. lets say you could have a vintage wind as your first output then add more winds for something hotter and that would be your second output (isnt that how most people have there tapped pickups). both outputs go to either end of the switch and the common connection in the middle goes to your normal hot connection (volume control tab or pickup selector switch)
the 3rd diagram is like the one i suggested originally and i dont think its desirable as you are either going to have thin and weedy or full on... i can admit when i am wrong :oops:
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the 3rd diagram is like the one i suggested originally and i dont think its desirable as you are either going to have thin and weedy or full on... i can admit when i am wrong :oops:
I agree (depending on where the tap is of course), but then couldn't you get round it by making Black hot and Red ground?
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yeah - a few minutes with a multimeter should show what the difference with the taps is and which wires to put where
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I'm even more confused now :lol: I might just tape off the green and not bother at this rate, I have no idea whats going where at the minute :(
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Tom, send me the pickup and I'll figure out how to wire it.
I can't be held responsible if it gets "lost in the post" on the way back to you though....
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sorry for all the duff advice and confusion
i would say to ask tim which wires are which and use the SD diagram... if you have a multi meter you dont need to ask because you can use it to figure out which wires go where
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I'm even more confused now :lol: I might just tape off the green and not bother at this rate, I have no idea whats going where at the minute :(
You could ask Tim (or his elves), I also remember that there was a thread like this and I believe it was in regard to Sambos Melody Maker
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OK, maybe this is a daft question, but what's a "Pig90"?
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I tried to find sams thread because I remembered it but he got it fixed by a tech so there wasnt a definitive answer if I remember right. Wez the SD diagram confuses me even more :lol: The wiring looks nothing like I have in my LP and I dont even have a tone connected to the bridge pickup at the minute.
MrBump, a pig 90 is a powerful p90 :) Tim said its got about the same output as a Sinner but more bottom end chunk.
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Wez the SD diagram confuses me even more :lol: The wiring looks nothing like I have in my LP and I dont even have a tone connected to the bridge pickup at the minute.
You shouldn't need to worry about the diagram looking like your LP wiring or not, all you're doing is taking out a volume pot and replacing it with another volume pot - with a switch stuck on the top of it.
The tone controls (or lack thereof), second volume control, switch and jack all stay exactly as they are!
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hmm right I think I see what to do now then, just need the colour codes. The wire that goes from the middle lug on the right of the push/pull to the selector switch, do I just ignore that or does it go to tag 1 of the volume pot instead?
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MrBump, a pig 90 is a powerful p90 :) Tim said its got about the same output as a Sinner but more bottom end chunk.
Cool... thought that it might be that, a custom order thingy.
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The wire that goes from the middle lug on the right of the push/pull to the selector switch, do I just ignore that or does it go to tag 1 of the volume pot instead?
To tag 1 of the volume pot - you're almost there!
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i could knock you up a quick diagram if you let me know what the rest of the components are - what pickups, what pots and which style of switch?
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They're all 500k pots, normal 3 way toggle switch and standard LP wiring as far as I know.. I have the tone pots disconnected at the minute but I might want to reconnect the bridge one - I've never used a bridge p90 so I dont know what I'm expecting. I made my own "diagram" based on what I can see in the SD one and what wiring there is to the volume pot in the guitar at the minute..
(http://i38.tinypic.com/apd3lc.jpg)
I guess the red and green could be swapped if its the wrong way round?
On the tapped p90s does the wire braid still need grounding as well?
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Looks correct to me! Yes, you could swap red and green if you find it's tapped with the switch down and full output with the switch up.
On the tapped p90s does the wire braid still need grounding as well?
I've never seen the cable on a tapped P-90. Is it a metal braid with the 3 coloured wires inside, or is it a plastic sleeve (like a 4-conductor cable) with 3 coloured wires plus a bare wire?
Either way, the braid (or the bare wire) should also go to ground.
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I just assumed it was braided for some reason actually :lol: I guess it wouldnt be now I think about it as the braided ones are only 1 core from what I've seen..
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that looks good to me!
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Good :) btw, how do you solder stuff to the back of the pot for ground? Theres a big switch on top of it on a push/pull :lol: Just attach it to the side instead or what?
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Yeah, it's a bit tricky but it's safest to solder on to the side of the pot if you can.
If you solder on the side of the switch part there are (I think) plastic parts inside, which could melt. And if you solder on top of the pot, unless you're very careful solder can get into the switch mechanism.
You might need to figure out a way of standing the pot on its side and holding it there securely while you solder - if you try to do it with the pot in place in the guitar, the solder will run down the side of the pot and you'll get in a right mess!
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Cool I should be able to do that.. I need to find somewhere that does 500k push/pull pots in the smaller metric shaft sizes now
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I don't think that'll be a problem - in fact I'm fairly sure all the push-pull pots I've seen are metric.
But it's a very long time since I bought any - maybe US fit ones are more widespread nowadays.
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The Pig 90 arrived today, it looks GREAT in the aged nickel. It doesnt fit in with my guitar as much as I thought it would though but it looks cool anyway :) Didnt wire up the tap because I dont have a push/pull yet. Anyway it sounds pretty good, very humbuckerish but with a bit of singlecoil twang/attack when you dig in :) However I've just read the wiring diagram stuff and I've wired it up wrong, I thought red was for the full sound but Tims written on that its the tap so I'm only getting half the power at the minute! It's allready great for rock in the tapped sound so I'm off to wire up the white and unleash the full beast :P
edit - in full mode its a complete beast as expected :) warranty card says its about 20k in full, 10k in tap. Quite a similar sound to my muled lp tho a bit more aggressive and metal sounding :) Its definitely twangier and more singlecoily on the tap which is good so I can get usable sounds from both modes.
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The Pig 90 arrived today, it looks GREAT in the aged nickel. It doesnt fit in with my guitar as much as I thought it would though but it looks cool anyway :) Didnt wire up the tap because I dont have a push/pull yet. Anyway it sounds pretty good, very humbuckerish but with a bit of singlecoil twang/attack when you dig in :) However I've just read the wiring diagram stuff and I've wired it up wrong, I thought red was for the full sound but Tims written on that its the tap so I'm only getting half the power at the minute! It's allready great for rock in the tapped sound so I'm off to wire up the white and unleash the full beast :P
edit - in full mode its a complete beast as expected :) warranty card says its about 20k in full, 10k in tap. Quite a similar sound to my muled lp tho a bit more aggressive and metal sounding :) Its definitely twangier and more singlecoily on the tap which is good so I can get usable sounds from both modes.
Dammit man we need CLIPS! I was tempted for a minute to send my MQ in for a re-wind to crazy specs, but realised i like it the way it is. more bass might be a bad thing right now.
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I cant have my amp very loud at the minute so it'll have to be a few days! It doesnt sound muddy or overly bassy though its got a really tight bottom end and it sounds pretty metal :D
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I cant have my amp very loud at the minute so it'll have to be a few days! It doesnt sound muddy or overly bassy though its got a really tight bottom end and it sounds pretty metal :D
thats not my main worry- i've decided i dont want a thick and bassey bridge pickup in dual pickup guitars, that's the necks job. Oh well, one day... Maybe in the bridge position of a single pickup sg... freaking gas!
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So the colour code for the wiring turned out totally different from expectations?!
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Nope, turns out white is the main output, red is tap. Theres a bare and black wire which are just for ground and its not a braided wire like I thought it might be. In the full mode this thing sounds really humbuckery you have to really dig in for the twang to come out. With the tap I think it'll be really versatile as its twangier in that mode and matches well with the MQ neck :)
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Ah, OK, it's the same colour coding as Duncan. That makes it simple! :D
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Tim confirmed my diagram should work (though obviously the green will be white) :) Will be ordering the push pull soon. Just wired up the tone controls again, they're actually useful with p90s! It was sounding a bit too bright/harsh on the bridge so I thought I'd give it a go, now I cant play without the tone rolled down a bit otherwise it seems too bright :lol: Gonna hook up the tone to my neck mule in the epi again though I've lost the cap - what rating do you need for a les paul?
Oh, and I've noticed this Pearl seems to have a more gradual rolloff than the tone controls in the Epiphone, which are really sudden.. why is that?
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Gonna hook up the tone to my neck mule in the epi again though I've lost the cap - what rating do you need for a les paul?
Oh, and I've noticed this Pearl seems to have a more gradual rolloff than the tone controls in the Epiphone, which are really sudden.. why is that?
0.022 would be standard for an LP - and I know you don't like the neck pickup to get too dark, so that should be about right. If it is still too dark you could try 0.015 or even 0.01.
Don't know about the tone rolloff - they could be linear taper pots rather than audio taper (or vice versa). Or they might simply be better quality.
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Maybe, I think Dave/Twinfan has replaced them with something a bit better as he included the originals in the case.. The ones in there now arent branded though. Actually thats a point I could probably steal a cap from there for my Epi! Saves buying one even though they are cheap :lol:
And no I hate dark tones (well some stoner rock sounds are allright), cant think of anything worse than a dull miserable guitar sound :P
by the way if you were interested to see how the pig 90 sounds, I have one of it doing Dragonaut by Sleep in the link in my sig, theres also one with Mules so you can hear the difference.. pig 90 is much punchier in comparison but has a nice fuzzy sort of bottom end on chords. Hard to describe really. I posted it as a thread in players but no one seems to be interested and I know you dont visit there much.
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I just had a listen to your clips. I like the Pig-90 one better, even though it's a single-coil it sounds more powerful in the bass, I suppose because it's more "open" than a humbucker. The perfect stoner pickup? :)
You're right, I don't visit Players much - I can't play for toffee so I'll never be posting anything myself, and I don't feel qualified to comment on other people's clips. And some of you guys are so good, it depresses me...
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tom, for god sake - just send us a PM with your address and i will post you a bloody cap
always easier to solder fresh components anyway
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haha good point.. I'll just order one when I get my pot, it'll be cheaper than you posting one :lol:
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fair enough, dont say i never offer... if you are putting one in it might as well not be a recycled epiphone one... that seems a bit of a desperate measure
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Yeah, thanks for the offer anyway :) is it worth buying expensive caps or will a regular 15p or so one be fine if I'm not a cork sniffer?
edit - this thread has got stupidly long for such a seemingly simple question :lol: :oops:
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i tend to go for orange drops or better now, still experimenting with different brands and dabbling with the higher priced ones... i find they make the tone control a lot more usable
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edit - this thread has got stupidly long for such a seemingly simple question :lol: :oops:
Don't worry about that - it's keeping us all enthralled, waiting for the next instalment...
Will he/won't he...
Better than most soaps...
It feels like it's coming to the end though :(
Can't wait for the next series :lol:
EDIT: Actually, there's a good one starting on the other channel http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13620.0 (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13620.0), looks like it could go either way: sitcom/tear-jerker/disaster-movie/casualty spin-off (Sorry badgermark!! :lol:)
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Well I finally got round to getting a push/pull pot and I have to say I'm disappointed - whilst it works fine (though I had to swap the red and white wires around) it feels REALLY cheap and nasty. It's so easy to turn and just doesnt feel solid :( I reckon I'm just gonna go back to untapped, the sound is useful but I hate having the cheap filmsy feel.
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I know what you mean, that cheap wobbly feel is one of the reasons I don't often use push/pulls. Having said that, the push/pull on my PRS feels nice and solid - but their standard pots are surprisingly flimsy.
It's actually really difficult to get pots which feel "just right". Everyone always says CTS are the ones to get, but I find them annoyingly stiff - I like to use my little finger to adjust tone and volume, but the CTS pots on my Tele and Tokai SG are impossible to turn with one finger! Maybe they loosen up with use and age.
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Whatever pots are in my Pearl and Epiphone now feel fine to me, they arent quite as stiff as CTS but arent too easy to turn either, I hate it when they're as loose as this pot I have now, waste of a fiver :(
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why not put it as a control you don't really use, like neck tone?
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I actually use that a fair bit with the MQ neck, rolled down a bit it does a good humbuckerish sound. The best thing to do would be to put in a small on/off switch for the tap but it'll ruin the look of the guitar.
edit - I just got rid of the push/pull and now my bridge tone isnt working :? It's hooked up the same though I did have to put new wires from the tone to the volume cos I managed to mangle the old ones :oops: Still, theres no reason it shouldnt work as the wires go to the same places. Any idea? Is it that I could've overheated the tone pot when I added the new ground wire?
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It's actually really difficult to get pots which feel "just right". Everyone always says CTS are the ones to get, but I find them annoyingly stiff - I like to use my little finger to adjust tone and volume, but the CTS pots on my Tele and Tokai SG are impossible to turn with one finger! Maybe they loosen up with use and age.
They do. I found them stiff at first too but they really loosen up nicely.
Do you use the bridge tone much? If it was me, that's the one I'd lose for the push/pull. You could either live with the flimsyness or just leave it unwired, functioning just as a coil tap but not a tone control. You keep the look of your guitar that way.
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They do. I found them stiff at first too but they really loosen up nicely.
Thanks, that's good to know. They're both pretty new guitars so hopefully they'll break in eventually. It's a real pain at the moment, especially on the SG because the controls are so close together.
Do you use the bridge tone much? If it was me, that's the one I'd lose for the push/pull.
I agree. I use the neck tone a lot, but the bridge pretty much stays on 10.
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I do use the bridge one a fair bit actually, takes the edge off it. I never use it on a humbucker guitar but on p90s it works well.
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Wire it with a master tone then?
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Then if you like the sound of the coil tap it might be worth getting a more expensive push-pull.
You can get the PRS ones from Thomann but they're about £25(!). You could probably get exactly the same type cheaper without the PRS "name", but I don't know what brand they use. I think DiMarzio pots are good quality too, you might find one on eBay.
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did you get one of these CGE push/pull pots?... http://www.wdmusic.co.uk/product/POT_PUSH_PULL_500K_W%7CDPDT_SWITCH_WD500PP# only tried those pots once and they were shitee, very loose and cheap feeling - not much cheaper than CTS either.
you could try these guys (Fake58)... http://www.fake58.co.uk/G%20electrics.htm their PRS upgrade kit includes two 500k push/pull pots. their stuff is typically very high quality, I've certainly been happy with my purchases from them.
or you could see if CTS would sell you a single pot directly, you want the '041' switch type which is a SPDT push-on, push-off. you'll want the 450-series pots which is what you typically get for guitar pots. these will be full-size CTS pots too, not those mini-pot POS things.
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Trouble is I need to get the thinner shaft size for my guitar as its an old japanese one. Maybe I could get someone with a drill press to bore them out to CTS size some time.
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Trouble is I need to get the thinner shaft size for my guitar as its an old japanese one. Maybe I could get someone with a drill press to bore them out to CTS size some time.
no sweat to widen the pot holes, I did it on my Epi LP jr with a hand drill using 0.5mm steps, a reamer is the proper tool though to ensure the wood doesn't split. If you go up in small steps though, you should be fine with a drill.
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Trouble is I need to get the thinner shaft size for my guitar as its an old japanese one. Maybe I could get someone with a drill press to bore them out to CTS size some time.
no sweat to widen the pot holes, I did it on my Epi LP jr with a hand drill using 0.5mm steps, a reamer is the proper tool though to ensure the wood doesn't split. If you go up in small steps though, you should be fine with a drill.
+1
Or just use a 10mm countersinking bit - it's "gentler" than an ordinary drill bit and won't rip out any chunks of finish.
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ah I think i have a 10mm countersinking bit. I cant really be arsed to rewire the guitar yet though :lol: Took me long enough to order a push pull pot and install that :P