Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Tomcaster on July 16, 2008, 12:50:04 PM
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Hi Guys,
I went through the nice but painful process of choosing pickups for my Strat and must say that the biggest hurdle were the confusing names. As I am on vacation I took some time to think about that issue and tried to come up with some suggestions:
1. After a lot of talking with Tim I pulled for a set of Apaches. They sound very round, full and jazzy, but still transparent - I believe they nail the sound of the very earliest Strat pickups made by Leo in 1954-55. Their very own sound is attributable to the Alnico III magnets which seem to be a good counterpart to the stuff Leo used 54 years ago. The name of the that set obviously based on a 50s era song - "Apache" by The Shadows. It is a great song recorded in 1960 which catches the atmospere of an important musical era, featuring a very bright lead guitar with tons of reverb. Still, the weakness of this tune is that IMHO it can be recreated 100% with any decent Strat - providing you have the amp and the reverb unit. Recently I nailed the tone with a friend's Strat that had Fender SCN pickups. I think Tim's Alnico III pickups deserve a name that would mirror their qualities more directly, giving the listener a better feel of their 'signature' sound. This would help to get rid of lot of confusion.
After playing them for some time now I think there are two very important band sounds that can be NAILED ONLY with the Apaches: Dire Straits and Buddy Holly & The Crickets. Buddy Holly's Strat sound was always a big mystery to me. Especially the intro of "That Will Be The Day" was far out of reach with any Strat I tried. The Apaches in the middle position nailed that sound spot on. The Apache middle pickup nails the studio version of Sultans of Swing. I have played tons of Strats in search for that jazzy and round middle pickup quality and the Apaches are the first to me that really have it. Mark played a japanese Strat copy (Fernandes) on that album - I don't know any specs about the pickups . As a bonus, the middle/bridge combo of the Apaches is pure Dire Straits "Communique" album. That sound came both from his Fernandes Strat and an early 60s rosewood Strat. Mark Knopfler often swapped the pickguard assemblies between those guitars. Beside, listen to Stefan Price who has made some great clips with the Apaches.
I think a name around either of those artists would make give the potential customer a better idea about the sound of Tim's Alnico III pickups. How about a combo: "The Chirping Sultans"? (='chirping' referring to an album of Buddy Holly). Simpler names could be "The Hollies" or "The Sultans"
2. Referring to the current "Sultans' - their name is totally misleading because they sport Alnico II magnets with plain enamel wire and don't have anything to do with what Mark Knopfler played on that track. This is why their popularity seems to be so weak on the forum. I have no idea whatsoever how to name them because this type of pickup has never been used throughout music history - maybe just "The Bells" to refer to the quality of Alnico II?
3. The "Mother's Milks" are ok although "Little Wings" or " Purple Hazes" would do even better because Jimi's tone is more sought after than RHCP.
4. "Irish Tours" is a really cool name although again misleading because Rorry's or Stevie's guitars had standard, non-overwound 60's pickups. Looking at their features (Alnico V, plain enamel) , they are overwound CBS 60s pickups. No idea how to name them at the moment.
5. "The Slowhands" were also a source of confusion for me. Clapton was called "Slowhand" mainly in the 60s and 70s. Both of the Strats he used had stock, non-overwound pickups. Looking at the current "Slowhands" specs, they seem to refer to a fat modern tone that Clapton gets with the mid boost and noiseless pickups. I would suggest to alter the name to "Reptiles" - this refers to a modern Clapton album and has some bite in the name suggesting their hotness. What could also be done is to weaken the Slowhands a bit and really model them after a mid 70s pickup for the vintage Blackie tone.
6. The other two names (Trilogy, Sinner) - I can't say anything because this territory is not my cup of tea.
7. What I terribly miss is a set of non-overwound early 60s pickups. Alnico V and formvar. This would help to nail the sound of muscians like Rory, SRV, Chris Rea etc. Now these pickups are a special order and called simply "Alnico V Apaches". How about "Number Ones" - after Stevies main axe?
Whoa that's a lot of writing! Hope you enjoyed and will give some comments
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I believe you've sort of missed the point.
The BKP pickups are all named on the vibe that Tim was feeling whilst playing them. They're not supposed to be accurate recreations of the actual pickups in the actual guitars played by the actual artists on the actual songs/albums they're named after.
Most people aren't geeky and pedantic enough to care ;) (jk)
I really like the BKP naming system, and (usually, as long as you understand the reference of the name) it gives you a good indication of the general ballpark that the pickup is in.
I'd change the name of the Nailbomb though; it doesn't seem to fit. All the other pickups are named after legendary bands/songs/albums, but the Nailbomb is named after some obscured Max Cavalera side project that nobody's ever heard of...
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Oh I think if you spend big $$$ on any of these pickups you would like to know how they actually sound. Especially the single coils really lack some professional demo recordings on which one could rely.
I don't know how the humbucker world is but believe me the single coil players are all very very pedantic :-)
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I can see what you're trying to say, but I think that it opens up a whole can of worms with naming conventions.
Probably just as well to use the names as an approximation of what the PUPS can do, then talk to Tim or listen to the clips.
Mark.
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I just don't think BKP is about making recreations of other pickups, it's more about creating the best tone possible, and improving on the sounds of yore.
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I kinda agree with the other replies Tomcaster - but the renaming issue aside, there's some fine info in your post, nice one :D
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I've just read your post very carefully Tom, and thinking about it........
.....I agree with everything you say. I needed some Strat pickups a while back and went with Fenders over BKPs as I didn't understand the BKP lineup very well.
The humbuckers seem to be better sorted, although not ideal?
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I think this is just too major an overhaul to be workable. It's reinventing the wheel.
As Indy pointed out, it's fundamentally changing the whole basis of naming the pickups. The current names are based on the way they sound (regardless of formvar, grade of alnico and all that gubbins). The "new" names would be based on what the pickups are made of and/or some anal-retentive (sorry) obsession with exactly what pickup so-and-so used on such-and-such a recording.
If you applied the same principle to the humbuckers, everything apart from maybe the vintage models would have to totally change as well.
I thought BKP were in the business of innovation (albeit from a foundation of tried-and-tested traditional methods). Not making slavish period-correct recreations of other people's pickups.
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If this was applied to humbuckers, the Holy Diver would be ceramic, the Miracle Man would be active, and the Warpig would be a p-90.
I see you've done your reading though, which is always good.
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I've just been through all of this rigmarole and I found it very confusing (in the end, I just asked for advice on this forum:). I don't *mind* the names so much, but I didn't find them helpful in choosing a pickup.
Also, many of the "Sound Clip" links are broken, and anyway, I think they just linked to the general "Players" forum page, when what I'd really want is a more controlled "compare and contrast" of pickups. E.g., I really liked the look and review of the Warpig, but I can't tell from reading about it how it differs from the Nailbomb (the TG reviews didn't really make it apparent either).
To a novice like me, the descriptions of the pickups all seem to read "everything about this pickup is great":) It might be nice to have a "for fans of..." bit on each pickup page, if that wouldn't get too contentious:) E.g., I read the guy from Muse has Nailbombs, which, in the abscence of any other info, was almost good enough for me tbh:) I can see there's a "users" link at the bottom of the site, but I didn't even see that at first cos I was just using the sidebar (& also it doesn't say which pups which people use!).
Hmm, I rambled a bit there, did not intend a hijack.. With respect to actually renaming extant products, I'd've thought that'd just confuse everything, like if I hear someone on youtube playing Warpigs and I like it and I google them to try and buy and can't find them anymore (I guess they could retain a "nee" pre-marital-style name:)!
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I think the best solution here would be this new site with EQ charts and official soundclips, all played on a same guitar and same amp. That way everyone would know what they're buying compared to what they are not.
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I think the best solution here would be this new site with EQ charts and official soundclips, all played on a same guitar and same amp. That way everyone would know what they're buying compared to what they are not.
It's supposed to be on the way - but so is the new Guns n' Roses album.
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I think the best solution here would be this new site with EQ charts and official soundclips, all played on a same guitar and same amp. That way everyone would know what they're buying compared to what they are not.
It's supposed to be on the way - but so is the new Guns n' Roses album.
Hahahaha :D
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You could say the same of the humbuckers. The warpig and painkiller leap out as beeing far more powerfull and heavy than the sounds they're named for.
But like others have said, they're named for vibe and very rough tonal characteristics. They arent supposed to be replicas of the pickups used, or you'd just get the pickups used for those sounds!
I find this more usefull, because I for one dont want to replicate any sounds. I want my own sounds. The names as vibe-guides are usefull for that, but you have to remember they can all be used for far more than they're named for!
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I don't think the names matter at all, as long as you're not naming 5k alnico II pickups 'the slaughterhouse', etc. It would be no improvement to name the pickups after different songs or artists that any given person thinks the pickups sound more like, because that will differ from guitar to guitar, and amp to amp. I think it'd be more handy to revise - like 5th Wheel said - the ambiguous descriptions of the pickups that are in the products page to include an EQ, more specific tonal breakdown, and comparisons between pickups.
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Tis a potentially thorny issue and you make a good thought out argument. I think back to when I first bought my BKPs and I can't say the names had too much influence. Sure they gave me a rough idea of what to expect but I sought advice and opinions and bought mine regardless of the names. I certainly agree with your views on Apaches-they are superb as I have said countless times in the past. My personal view is that the gear you are playing is almost ( I said almost) incidental to the sound you are going to make.If Jimi were around now and he were to borrow my Strat, he'd sound just like Jimi and the same wopuld apply if he used just about any Strat. Having said that, each of us wants the best possible gear to enable us to try to emulate our idols or to create our own thing with as good a core sound as we can.
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You could say the same of the humbuckers. The warpig and painkiller leap out as beeing far more powerfull and heavy than the sounds they're named for.
+1 I was talking to a guy who was making his own metal guitar, and he bought Warpigs, and I asked him why he got them over Miracle Men, as Miracle Men seemed to fit his needs better, and he said "Warpig sounds heavier" or something like that, which may be a common thing, to instantly presume Warpigs are the ultimate metal pickup, due to them having an angry name... :P
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81
81TW
85
ZW
KFK
60
60A
89
H
HA
Hmmm... I know how I'd rather have MY pickups lablled... "Nailbomb" CAN'T be any more confusing than "81"...
:?
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The pickup descriptions give the magnet type and DC resistence - I think you can get a basic idea just from that.
If you're not sure, email or phone Tim - he's always more than happy to talk shop in my experience.
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81
81TW
85
ZW
KFK
60
60A
89
H
HA
Hmmm... I know how I'd rather have MY pickups lablled... "Nailbomb" CAN'T be any more confusing than "81"...
:?
Just what I was thinking :P
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Good posts on here
It is a really tough situation for sure for many reasons
One factor that raises it's head a bit is perceptions of players and prejudices towards certain players.
It is funny that I suffer with a prejudice against both Hendrix and SRV
I can't upon reflection say that I dislike their tone or even their singing (although not my favourite)
But I suffer with hearing way too much about them from the legions of fans and from the constant barrage from guitar mags over the years.
Now the point I am making is that I may be looking for a particular strat sound that maybe these two fine players had on their recordings but because of my prejudice I would steer clear of pickups called "woodstocks" or "Little Wings" Or "Texas Floods"
I have to be careful not to develop a blind-spot towards the Nailbomb (as it is a fine pickup and has a wide range of applications) simply because I cant stand Sepultura and that genre of metal (mainly because of the poor vocalists), and I am sure the same might apply to others maybe if a pickup made you think of hair-metal (which i am fond of) simply because of visions of spandex trousers and day-glo guitars
Another example of prejudice I experienced was a while back I was trying to sort out a problem that a jazz player was having getting the right sounds out of a cheapish jazz guitar (like a Gibson 175)
I knew and Tim advised that he would be best of with a stronger voiced pickup (the stormy Mondays, mules etc were not doing what we needed) and it seemed that either a rebel Yell or a Warpig neck pickup would give him the tones he wanted.
But there was no way that the player could get his head around the names - they evoked all the wrong images for him
I wished that I could have printed up my own labels with names that evoked smoky jazz clubs to him.
Something that would make him think of Joe Pass rather than Tony Iommi - but alas I couldn't do that (no Djangobucker or Manhatten twilight)
Just thoughts on a tricky subject
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Interesting post Jonathan.
I was going to say that I wouldn't let the name of a pickup put me off.... but thinking about it, I would hesitate to get the Brown Sugars simply because I don't like the Stones.
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...I don't like the Stones.
Good call :D
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I personally don't like the name of Miracle Man. I mean, it is a metal pickup, and many thrash players will prefer it cos it is kinda scooped and very tight, but I'm sure they would be much happier if it had a more aggressive name.
Even the Mule sounds kinda.. well... animalistic :D
As for the mothers milk, I would really need to be a some sort of a funky-60s-stoned type of person to say with pride something like "yeah dudee, I've got this cool pickup dudee, it's called mothers milk! hahaha, it's such a cool name.. ! I love it.. DUDE". Now thats just not me. NO WAY :D
However I like the name of Apache, Sultans, Emerald, Holy Diver, Crawler, and all other, except for those few I mentioned.
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I think this is just too major an overhaul to be workable. It's reinventing the wheel.
As Indy pointed out, it's fundamentally changing the whole basis of naming the pickups. The current names are based on the way they sound (regardless of formvar, grade of alnico and all that gubbins). The "new" names would be based on what the pickups are made of and/or some anal-retentive (sorry) obsession with exactly what pickup so-and-so used on such-and-such a recording.
Well I think you didn't get my point at all - maybe you didn't read the post carefully enough. What I was trying to say is that the current names might mislead expectations when you buy them. I just suggested to give them song- or artist-based names which could reflect their qualities more precisely so a potential customer could listen to the recording they are named after and immediately understand their qualities. Example: when listening to the song "Apache" you don't get the idea how round and jazzy Alnico III sounds. Anything from Buddy Holly is better. "Slowhands" is a terrible name because you would expect a mid 70s vintage Strat sound - who in the world would think that they replicate 'atmosphere' of the boosted Lace Gold pickups?
In addition, I proposed to fill the hole in the offering and introduce Alnico V Apaches as early 60s pickups. Nobody commented on that?
If you applied the same principle to the humbuckers, everything apart from maybe the vintage models would have to totally change as well.
Well I'm not from the humbucker world so I can't say whether the names are good or not. Seems that other guys here are doing this already.
I thought BKP were in the business of innovation (albeit from a foundation of tried-and-tested traditional methods). Not making slavish period-correct recreations of other people's pickups.
I thought BKP did both vintage recreations and modern pickups. All of their products deserve names which mirror their qualities as precisely as possible, that's all.
[edited for spelling]
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Well I think you didn't get my point at all - maybe you didn't read the post carefully enough.
No, I got your point and I'm perfectly capable of reading carefully, I just didn't agree with your idea.
The existing names are meant to give an idea how the pickup sounds. They're not supposed to indicate that they're the same as the pickups a particular artist used (KK Downing and Yngwie Malmsteen never used overwound Strat pickups like the Sinner or Trilogy Suite, for example). And they're not supposed to tell you what wire or magnets the pickups are made of. You said yourself about the Sultans that "this type of pickup has never been used throughout music history" because of the AII magnets - and yet Tim chose to make them that way because they produced a sound that said something to him. They clearly "sound like a Strat" even if the materials are "wrong".
If you don't agree with the names Tim chose, that's OK - you just need to do more research to find what's going to suit you, the same as everyone else did. Some of the names may be confusing - it's entirely subjective - but changing them at this stage would be infinitely more confusing.
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Yep, very interesting post Jonathan, "Just thoughts on a tricky subject", (and Philly's reply to it).
I bought my first set, Irish Tours, through a prejudice of sorts ("positive discimination"?) - I was a huge Rory fan, I even heard about BKP through the existance of these pups being reported on a Rory forum a few years back...
But other than that, I would have said the same as Philly "I wouldn't let the name of a pickup put me off". Except... I recently realised that I'd never even bothered reading the product pages for Slowhand or The Boss pups, due to some slight, er, prejudices...
One thing possibly holding me back (I don't think it's the names) is that I lean towards "I want vintage tones" - I'm sure if I had the time/money/space, that some of the "modern" humbuckers would do some great jobs for me. I'm almost convinced (I think it was MDV a while back) that Warpigs would make some very tasteful sounds for me - it means more guitars though!!
For the rest of my acquisitions so far, it wasn't the names - I went for Mules because they get described as achieving the late 50's PAF type sound. Riff Raffs cos they're the 60s-70s "patent" types. And MQs because they're P90 types that fit in a guitar built for humbuckers... I'm not too worried how they're made!!
And now they're integral parts of my guitars, like Mr Bump and Will, I am very happy that they have names - "oh yeah, those are Mules, sound good, don't they?" :D
I think BKP themselves might have a possible marketing issue over someone not buying, say a "Nailbomb" because of what the name means to them - but it seems to be quite likely that the customer is going to buy some sort of BKP instead??? So possibly not a problem after all?
For us as customers - I think most of us, once prepared to spend this much, are in the market for getting what we want and putting a bit of research in. The names aren't actually that much of a problem once you start researching. There's loads of help on here, and BKP themselves will give you personal advice on that front (and swap them if it turns out the advice didn't work!!). Personally, I'd be surprised if I ended up with say "Slowhands" in one of my guitars - but if that was what was needed, and it gave me the tone I was looking for, I could grin and bear it :lol:
EDIT: Tomcaster - on the Alnico V Apaches gap - I'm not sure it is that much of a gap if they'll do them for you if you ask. But certainly you writing about it has alerted me to the possibility!!
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I think BKP themselves might have a possible marketing issue over someone not buying, say a "Nailbomb" because of what the name means to them - but it seems to be quite likely that the customer is going to buy some sort of BKP instead??? So possibly not a problem after all?
I think that's one case where the pickup's reputation has completely overtaken any association with the origin of the name :). Not in the world at large, of course, but on this forum people recommend Nailbombs (and C-Bombs) all the time for applications which have nothing to do with Max Cavalera or Alex Newport. I don't know about sales figures, of course, but I get the impression it's a very popular pickup.
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I think BKP themselves might have a possible marketing issue over someone not buying, say a "Nailbomb" because of what the name means to them - but it seems to be quite likely that the customer is going to buy some sort of BKP instead??? So possibly not a problem after all?
I think that's one case where the pickup's reputation has completely overtaken any association with the origin of the name :). Not in the world at large, of course, but on this forum people recommend Nailbombs (and C-Bombs) all the time for applications which have nothing to do with Max Cavalera or Alex Newport. I don't know about sales figures, of course, but I get the impression it's a very popular pickup.
The problem for me on "Nailbomb" has always been that the only image it conjures up (for me) is an explosive device with 6" nails in it!! :lol:
(So it's always been in the "I'll save that one for later :?" category for me - I'm sure I'll want that sound one day!)
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i'm quite fond of the BKP naming system, practically every name really makes me want that certain pickup. i guess the names are confusing, but most people will look up reviews, talk to tim and check the forum before buying anyway, even if they don't post, i do extreme amounts of research before any purchase, and if possible will always test drive, i assume most people will also learn to look into something before they buy, most of us seem to be very analytical when it comes to tone :)
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If I liked single coils, I would get Trilogy Suites just for the Yngwie reference. I'm that biased. As with humbuckers... I just want them all.
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The names confuse me greatly, because I don't get about 90% of the references.
That means I just come on here and read about them instead, so it's not like a big handicap (although I'd be terrible in a music section of a pub quiz!).
With that said, the naming is a bit annoying for me, and is the only part of the current BKP empire I'd suggest needs any form of change - but at the same time, I realise I'm just dimwitted, and that's my problem, not anyone else's.
Roo
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Why would anyone buy a pickup based on the name alone anyway? I wouldnt buy an SD Custom Custom then think "hmm this doesnt sound very custom to my ears!", I'd think "this pickup is rubbish in every guitar I've tried it in due to far too many weird mids"
It's only there to give a general idea, and if you read the descriptions or email Tim you'll get a better idea of what sort of sound you'll be getting from the pickups rather than just reading the name.
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I've stayed away from this up to now, because for me when I first started most of the names were meaningless to me anyway, so I usually call Tim and sort out what I want. This is how I have ended up with all the pickups I have (including some AV Apaches and some pre-production pickups!).
When I first saw the Geoff Whitehorn add for BK's, I checked on line and saw reviews on HC, and then emailed BK. Tim was very fast answering me, and after trading a couple of emails I decided a phone call would work better. An hour or so on the phone later and I had ordered my first 5 BK's :roll: Once I heard them I was ready for more, so another couple of phone calls, and I had my next few sets. I was lucky enough to be asked to help out at LGS in 2005 (I used to work in music retail many years ago, and was living in London at the time). That year Feline and Keely were sharing the stand, so I got to try lots of Felines with BK's, as well as some of Tim's guitars. I must have been OK on the stand because I have been invited back to the other shows!! All of this has allowed me to hear lots of BK's and also to talk to lots of people about the pickups. There really is no substitute for research. I can understand if you are in a dealer's and see them in a box, but the dealer should be able to advise you about the sound to expect.
This weekend I will be taking a couple of guitars to my local music shop in Hoboken (Guitar Bar). They are a small shop but have quite a good range of effects and parts, and are nice guys in general. They also have good prices on strings! Anyway I will take my 57 strat with Apaches, and probably an LP with PG Blues (I bought it from one of the guys there about 8 years ago when he was working at Hoboken Vintage Guitars). I doubt that Apache will mean anything much to them other than native American Indians, PG Blues may have more meaning. Howver I am sure that when they hear them they will know what Tim was getting at.
My point is that the names are just for rough guidance and you can't beat research. The names haven't made me buy or not buy pickups. I don't have Yardbirds (I like the band - but I have a 62 tele, and these are that sound [they nail it]), Boss (not a big Springsteen fan, but the Black Guards came out when I was about to get a Boss set, and I pefered them), Country Boy's (Albert Lee is good, but I prefer the rockier tele sounds), Sinners (I like Judas Priest, but just haven't come up with a reason for Sinners), BKP-92 (but I do have a Pig-90 - I may get 92's at some point - I am a big P-90 fan).
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As many others have said the pickup names are simply a guidance to help you get as near to the sound you are after. If we named them specifically after a player as such im willing to bet we would get alot of people asking BKP to make pickups based on every other guitarist out there :)
We give anyone the option of Email or phoning us where they will get the best advice we can give should they still have difficulty choosing pickups.
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As everybody has said the names are just a rough guide but I'm seriously put of Apache's because I think of geeks with big glasses.
Which is a shame......Still want them though
But the names are better than some manufacturers with Blues, vintage Blues, overwound rock blues and all that cr@p, at least the BK naming system gets you to the right decade.
Other than that I wish I could actually afford some more, based on the 1 set I own I know I'd be happy with Apache's Mother's milk or IT's just because they would all be better than some of the cr@p fender have turned out over the last 20 years.....
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As everybody has said the names are just a rough guide but I'm seriously put of Apache's because I think of geeks with big glasses.
Presumably that would also apply if the name was changed to a Buddy Holly song title. :wink:
(Disclaimer: I'm not saying either HM or BH is/was a geek really.... )
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Meh. The way i approach the BKP line is by decade. Apaches- 50s, MM- 60s, ITs-70s, TS- 80s/90s, sinner- mental.
Same can be kinda applied to the humbuckers, but i think Tim had different guitars in mind. Like the Holydiver is a 80s based rock machine- in an alder body. Compare to the black dogs vs VHII, roughly same decade in rock but different guitars in mind- LP vs superstrats.
Ooft that's a lot of abbreviations.
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Breed, Evolution, Tone Zone, X2N, Air Norton, FRED, Pearly Gates, Stag Mag, Blackouts....etc
How do these names give any indication as to the sound of the pickups?
At least Bareknuckles refer to a musical reference that even if you don't know it you can look up, it's a lot more help than even charts and random measurements of resistance are able to offer to someone who doesn't understand them.
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Breed, Evolution, Tone Zone, X2N, Air Norton, FRED, Pearly Gates, Stag Mag, Blackouts....etc
How do these names give any indication as to the sound of the pickups?
At least Bareknuckles refer to a musical reference that even if you don't know it you can look up, it's a lot more help than even charts and random measurements of resistance are able to offer to someone who doesn't understand them.
Well again, some of those names mean something if you "get" the reference - Pearly Gates being Billy Gibbons' Les Paul, for example. And although Breed, Evolution and FRED mean nothing in themselves, if you're aware of the Vai and Satriani connections you have some idea what to expect. But some of the other names tell you nothing at all - especially Norton, which is totally meaningless.
But I agree, none of them are any more helpful than the BKP names.
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I'm not sure what kind of response you were after with your post.
The current naming system is (quite) helpful and I understand it now having participated in forum discussion for some time. I still however don't understand how some of the buckers differ from the others, but thats another matter.
Its all well and good thinking about how things could be improved and typing a long old post justifying your thoughts. Fair enough.
But what you have to do is put yourself in Tim's shoes. Why would he want to do this? How would it improve the BKP offer. It would no doubt be costly...marketing, new packaging, re-educating the dealers. Seems like a lot of work / expense for what purpose? Surely in the current economic climate you'd want to stay on top of your costs.
Also what's with the Stones bashing... :(
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Also what's with the Stones bashing... :(
Was that me? Not bashing really, I'm sure they're a great band to achieve such success over such a long time. But they don't do anything for me, never have I'm afraid.