Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: badgermark on July 24, 2008, 09:47:04 PM
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So i'm building a strat from parts. I picked up a squier body from ebay, and a no name neck with a 57mm heel. The neck doesn't fit. The body heel is around 56mm, and looks around 1mm out anyway. The mounting holes line up perfectly though, body and neck and neck plate. Woo!
Question is do i sand down the neck heel? Which side do i do, lower or upper horn side? Anything i should look out for? Or just get a sanding block and make it a tight fit?
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UPPER HORN!!!! Yes, sand it is a way to get it right...
You would have to look to make it square to the pocket...
You could route it with a dremel or bench "router", but I believe it's easier to screw up things, I would not try it if you're begging woodworking... If you have experience, will be faster...
This is what I would do, probably, perhaps the Mr Profs: Jonathan and Wez can make better hints!
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dont touch the neck - that will throw off the taper of the fretboard and is more hassle than its worth.... enlarge the pocket in the body by .5mm on each side.... if its got a thick finish in the pocket you may find removing that gets you most of the way
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Mr Wez is right! took only from upper horn would take it away from the centre :oops:
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Dont alter neck - only leads to trouble
Where you remove wood on body depends upon how central the neck lies
Take the pickguard off first
I would attach a high E and a Low E and position the neck over the body so that the strings are even on both the treble and bass sides of the fingerboard - obviously the strings will only be tight enough so you can get a straight line going from the nut to the bridge on both sides.
Once you have the neck lined up draw carefully down the side of the heel onto the body to show you where to cut (you may need masking tape on the body to draw on)
Get busy with either a router or a chisel/file - and take your time to get it right (avoid rushing)
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Thanks guys. I was thinking of taking the neck down half a mm on each side, but shall get attacking (slowly!) the body. My biggest worry with doing this was that there isn't a lot of wood on the lower horn side of the neck pocket, shall be super careful when setting about it with a block of sandpaper.
I need a router, can anyone recommend a small handheld jobbbie? Like is there a Dremel multitool thingy that would work for jobs like this?
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I need a router, can anyone recommend a small handheld jobbbie? Like is there a Dremel multitool thingy that would work for jobs like this?
You can get router bits for Dremels, but I think you'd be better off with a proper router with a flat base and two handles to control it properly (maybe you can get a base unit for the Dremel, I don't know).
Simply because when you're routing something - like this neck pocket - it's nearly always important to keep the sides of the cut perfectly vertical.
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To be honest I need one anyway. My list of tools include a leatherman, set of screwdrivers, soldering iron and a cordless drill set. Not exactly sufficient for most jobs. I'll look into a little Dremel jobbie anyway, seems like overkill just to shave off 1 mm for this job.
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You could see if Wez or Jonathon could do the job for you?
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You could see if Wez or Jonathon could do the job for you?
Bit far away... Na i think i can do it myself, i'll try carefully enlarging the neck pocket and see if it makes it fit. No rush for this really, i still need a bridge arrangement.
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I must admit, this is one of those jobs that would scare the hell out of me. I'd love to be able to do it, and I probably could, but I'm more likely to enquire first how much a more qualified person might like to charge me!
However, that might defeat the object of "i'm building a strat from parts" :D
Good luck with it - and of course, if you succeed, that'll be another nail in my own "hey, if I bought a dremel jobbie, maybe I could build one" coffin :roll:
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I must admit, this is one of those jobs that would scare the hell out of me. I'd love to be able to do it, and I probably could, but I'm more likely to enquire first how much a more qualified person might like to charge me!
However, that might defeat the object of "i'm building a strat from parts" :D
Good luck with it - and of course, if you succeed, that'll be another nail in my own "hey, if I bought a dremel jobbie, maybe I could build one" coffin :roll:
Exactly. this is the first step to me saying that i 'accidently' bought a lump of wood and a ton of tools. I feel confident, hey i'm the person that routed a telecaster for a bridge humbucker using a freaking hand drill! Literally bought a MIM tele for £300, played it for a minute then busted out the tools. It worked. Kinda.
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I've routed for a humbucker in tele (neck, I'd be a bit more wary around the bridge). But I did it the "old-fashioned" way with a chisel. I started out using conventional methods I was taught in woodworking at school, but after the straight(-ish) edges were reasonably secure I got bored, and just levered chunks out instead! It worked though... (which is not something I can say about the chisel since then!)
Given my record with a hand drill, which I do enjoy taking for a spin around the flat occasionally, I think there's a good chance that I would have been "rear-mounting" my pickup if I'd used it. :lol:
EDIT: Forgot to write what actually meant to say :roll: - the stuff I'm wary of is anything that has to do with the "playing surface". I have shimmed a neck successfully, and replaced nuts with pre-slotted ones, bridge saddles, but that's about it. Any messing with fitting a neck, fret condition, moving or replacing a bridge, that sort of thing, makes me think I could turn a relative cheap job into a very expensive job quite quickly with successive, er, "solutions"...
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I have a Dremel with the router base from StewMac and it works really well for small jobs. The problem is that you need a template to guide it. For this you could mark a template on a piece of plywood and cut it out with a fretsaw then clamp that over the neck pocket and rout to that. Taking 0.5mm off with a hand held router with no guide is probably a disaster in the making. A drum sander attacement for the drill would work too, if you have the template and don't want to get a router. I would probably use a sharp chisel for this though, but sharp is the key word and just take shavings off at a time.
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Thanks for all the help guys, i'll think it over while i wait on the rest of the parts to arrive. Strange though, my first idea was to shave the neck down a little bit on each side for a snug fit, but everyone here mentions attack the body, which seems more fragile in my eyes. I shall update when i have a guitar that works. Or is in splinters.
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Wouldn't it be better just to sand, slowly, painfully, and carefully?
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Wouldn't it be better just to sand, slowly, painfully, and carefully?
thats fine as long as you can add 'evenly' to the list
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Wouldn't it be better just to sand, slowly, painfully, and carefully?
thats fine as long as you can add 'evenly' to the list
Ah... you won't be asking me to do it then, badgermark...
(or to borrow my chisel if you go for the other option!)
It's funny, I guess MrBump was making the same assumption as me - "I've probably got a better chance of a straight line with sanding, even if takes two weeks of doing it every night after work..."
But what you're saying Wez is "probably not" to that assumption then? And in fact a "slowly and carefully with the sandpaper" is more likely to cause a bog up? Certainly fits with my experience now I think about it :lol: Previously, I'd just assumed that something unspecified had "gone wrong" and put up with it...
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sanding gets awkward in tight spaces like this.. i think that without being really carefull most people would end up widening the mouth of the pocket without removing much from the back
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It's funny, I guess MrBump was making the same assumption as me - "I've probably got a better chance of a straight line with sanding, even if takes two weeks of doing it every night after work..."
But what you're saying Wez is "probably not" to that assumption then? And in fact a "slowly and carefully with the sandpaper" is more likely to cause a bog up? Certainly fits with my experience now I think about it :lol: Previously, I'd just assumed that something unspecified had "gone wrong" and put up with it...
Unless you're sanding with a block - which will be tricky in a neck pocket - it's very difficult to sand evenly. If the paper just has your fingertips behind it, they're an extremely long way from being evenly shaped!
Sanding in a small, shallow space like a neck pocket, there's a natural tendency to sand more near the top edge and hardly at all at the bottom of the pocket - it's almost impossible not to do that. So you end up with a neck that correctly fits the bottom of the pocket but has a gap all round at the top!
A router's the best bet - if you can get one and you're comfortable using it. Of course it's an extremely fine cut so don't try to do it freehand, use a template! :P
(Edit: Wez replied before me, so this a bit of a redundant comment... )
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where did you get the 'noname' neck from badger? any good?
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Ebay- here is a link to the auction (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STRATOCASTER-STRAT-NECK-Maple-Rosewood-NEW_W0QQitemZ380047155612QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item380047155612&_trksid=p3911.m14.l1318), it's not bad actually, feels pretty good. Straight and the frets are really well put in. Arrived the day after the shop posted too, result!
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Of course it's an extremely fine cut so don't try to do it freehand, use a template! :P
And use a cutter with a bearing as well to follow the template
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This bugger wont fit. PLUS the bloody neck mounting screws just slot in, no bite at all. Makes me want to swear when things don't work out. Anyone want a strat type neck?
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You could probably fix the no-bite thing with some splints and some glue...
Are you stil struggling to get enough wood off?
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If the neck heel is unaffected I might take it off your hands - does it have a nut allready installed? Just need to measure my old strat bodies neck pocket. I know its a bit wider than standard fender.
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I fixed my Tele neck by using some threaded steel inserts and machine screws instead of the normal wood screws (before and after below).
The holes were really badly stripped and chewed up though, you shouldn't need to do anything so extreme on your neck.
The splints/toothpicks thing should work, or you could drop some bicarbonate of soda into the holes, followed by a few drops of superglue - in effect it lines the hole with a really hard filler, giving the screw something to grip.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p216/phillyq/beforeafter.jpg)
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We fix holes like this all the time
We cut hardwood dowels from maple using a plug cutter and then drill the existing hole bigger to accept the plug
Then glue in the plugs, trim them off and it is like starting with an undrilled neck
I know I make it sound easy but that is only through experience - works well though!
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I was planning to dowel the bitch up, managed the matchstick and glue trick before. Tom the heel is fine, it's 57mm if that helps. It's got a slotted nut and string trees already on it. gimme a pm if you're interested. I even have the box it shipped in.
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We cut hardwood dowels from maple using a plug cutter
Presumably that also lets you match the direction of the grain? I didn't use dowels on my Tele because I could only get those stupid little birch dowels where you're drilling/screwing into the end grain and there's no strength at all.
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yeah, thats why plugs are so much better than just shoving some B&Q dowel in there
the threaded inserts are a great idea though - especially if you are liekly to be removing the neck a lot because you dont need to worry about wood getting stripped out
kits are available here
http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/hardware.html
and much cheaper but might need more work here:
http://simnettguitars.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1119.0
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We cut hardwood dowels from maple using a plug cutter
Presumably that also lets you match the direction of the grain?
Exactly
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kits are available here
http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/hardware.html
and much cheaper but might need more work here:
http://simnettguitars.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1119.0
One caution about that cheaper kit, if fitting to a regular Fender guitar - as he says, the inserts require a 7.5-8mm hole, which means you're leaving very little wood between the insert and the edge of the neck. I'd be worried about the wood splitting. The inserts I used only needed a 1/4-inch hole.
I wish that Manchester Guitar Tech kit had been available a year or so ago - £45 isn't cheap, but I spent a lot more than that and many, many hours on the internet trying to get inserts and machine screws from the USA!
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Thanks for all the help guys, I sanded the neck pocket a little wider and the neck still didn't fit. Plus it seems to high as well, around 3 or 4 mm taller than how my fender tele sits. Sod it, i got a proper squier neck off evilbay, and the no name one is up for grabs, shall be ebay'd soon.
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kits are available here
http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/hardware.html
and much cheaper but might need more work here:
http://simnettguitars.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1119.0
One caution about that cheaper kit, if fitting to a regular Fender guitar - as he says, the inserts require a 7.5-8mm hole, which means you're leaving very little wood between the insert and the edge of the neck. I'd be worried about the wood splitting. The inserts I used only needed a 1/4-inch hole.
I wish that Manchester Guitar Tech kit had been available a year or so ago - £45 isn't cheap, but I spent a lot more than that and many, many hours on the internet trying to get inserts and machine screws from the USA!
true, i can see why the manchester tech one costs so much and its definatly a more ready to go solution.. the one from simo is good for those of us that build from scratch and get to choose our own spacing and dont mind teh modern looking bolts... i might give it a go soon
does the fact you spent more money mean you had to buy in bulk and have some spare??
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Thanks for all the help guys, I sanded the neck pocket a little wider and the neck still didn't fit. Plus it seems to high as well, around 3 or 4 mm taller than how my fender tele sits. Sod it, i got a proper squier neck off evilbay, and the no name one is up for grabs, shall be ebay'd soon.
Are you sure its a case of the body not fitting the neck, rather than neck not fitting the body?
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does the fact you spent more money mean you had to buy in bulk and have some spare??
I have loads of stainless machine screws in both 8-32 and 10-24 sizes, all 1-3/4" long with Phillips oval heads. The 8-32 fit a Fender neck plate, the 10-24 have slightly bigger heads so they need a thicker plate (or ferrules).
I don't have any spare steel threaded inserts, but I do have a few brass ones, again in 8-32 and 10-24. The 8-32 are about 3/8" long and need a 1/4" pilot hole, the 10-24 are 1/2" long and need a 3/8" pilot hole. They're exactly like these:
http://www.ezlok.com/InsertsWood/hardWood.html (http://www.ezlok.com/InsertsWood/hardWood.html)
The brass inserts are fairly easy to get hold of, but I had to get someone in the US to order the steel ones for me because they wouldn't ship overseas.
Let me know if you need some Wez, I owe you a favour! :D
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Thanks for all the help guys, I sanded the neck pocket a little wider and the neck still didn't fit. Plus it seems to high as well, around 3 or 4 mm taller than how my fender tele sits. Sod it, i got a proper squier neck off evilbay, and the no name one is up for grabs, shall be ebay'd soon.
Are you sure its a case of the body not fitting the neck, rather than neck not fitting the body?
Little from column A, little from column B. Like i said, i swore, said sod it, and bought another neck. Thanks again chaps.
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The brass inserts are fairly easy to get hold of, but I had to get someone in the US to order the steel ones for me because they wouldn't ship overseas.
Humm a luthier told me on Warmoth's forum to don't use the brass inserts, because they can brake inside and get a pain in the @rse to take it...
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thx phil, i sent you a PM - i didnt mention size but i would be happy woth the 10-24 size as i rarely use neck plates on my builds
i am not worried about the brass snapping because as long as its treated right it shouldnt happen.. the thing i will do is test an insert in an offcut before doing it on the actual neck... that should highlight any issues. I imagine if i tried to put them in a solid macasser ebony neck then they might be more likely to snap, and pretty pointless as well since ebony holds a thread quite well. i have plans for a telecaster with a sapelle neck which is quite like mahogany so needs a bit of extra insurance to prevent the screw threads stripping out
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I can see the brass inserts being a potential problem, simply because the threads are softer than the steel screw so if you tighten really hard, you could strip the threads.
Some people see threaded inserts as a means of putting MASSIVE PRESSURE on the neck screws on the basis that this improves the tone, but I personally think that's a load of hogwash - IMO the screws only need to be tight enough to hold the neck firmly without shifting.
What's more of an issue is fitting the inserts in the first place - apparently if you try to fit them in hard wood without cutting a thread first (as shown on the Manchester Guitar Tech installation instructions), the outer threads on the brass inserts aren't strong enough to cut the wood and the brass can "fold" on itself.
When I used the steel inserts, I just drilled the pilot holes and let the inserts cut their own thread (using a bit of dry soap on the threads to stop it sticking). I was expecting it to be tough, but they went in easily - drilling the holes in the right place was the hardest part of the job.
It would be extremely difficult to get the inserts back out though!