Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: hermantehgerman on August 12, 2008, 06:48:31 PM
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Hey everyone!
I'm looking for some new pickups for my Epiphone Les Paul Classic Quilt Top - a really nice playing guitar, but, well, it has Epiphone pickups, which do not blow me away:P
I play a mixture of Blues/Blues Rock/Classic Rock/Funk Rock - there isn't really any player/playing style I can identify with completely. My influences include Eric Clapton, John Frusciante, Jimi, Alvin Lee, B.B. King, Neil Young, Rory Gallagher, John Fogerty, Mick Jones (of the Clash), George Harrison, Peter Buck, the guys of Lynyrd Skynyrd, Jimmy Page, Peter Green, Zappa, Dylan/Mike Bloomfield, Paul Kossoff, Jack White, Mark Knopfler, Duane Allmann, Santana, Keith Richards, Pete Townshend, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Angus Young and many many more...
I guess what I'd want from my pickups is a vintage/PAF vibe and tone, with some added clarity maybe - the anti-clarity of the epi pickups along with the high end loss with the volume knob on 5(!) really bugs me.
What I was thinking, before emailing Tim with this exact inquiry, was that a Mule set would be right for me (I've talked to a couple of persons that own them and they seemed to be quite what I would want) - now, along comes Tim's answer: The PG Blues Set (which he suggested mainly because I mentioned wanting to do a In/Out of Phase thing to get PG type of sound with a PP Pot I guess) and, excluding the PG sound, the Stormy Monday set.
I respect his opinion and suggestions 100% - I believe he really really knows his stuff, otherwise he couldn't be building pickups as good as these - but I wanted some more opinions. That's where you forum users/BKP owners come into play: what would you suggest for that type of sound, or what do you play to get such a sound?
My amp is a Fender Champion 600 as of now (I still play through a Pignose HOG20 at times as well), the goal is an AC30 some time along the way:P
alright, thanks in advance and Cheers!
wow...this is a wall of text..sorry:P
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One can only endorse Tim's suggestions. Mules for classic rock. PG Blues if you want the out of phase thing. You might also consider Black Dogs for a more middly rock sound
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I'd suggest Mules for a versatile blues rock set. You can get phase switching with any set of BKPs, if you order them with 4 conducter wiring (the PG Blues set comes permanently out of phase) using a push-pull pot or mini switch.
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I love the PG Blues set, it is more versatile than people think, it is based on Stormy Mondays but has a bit more kick. You list a lot of guys who use single coil pickups and the PGB will help you get that sound. The Mules will be a fatter sound and more creamy, but nearly all the people you have were using old lower output PAF's to get their sound and then adding a booster before the amp,
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Even though I've not tried them (PGs or Stormies), I think I'd go with Tim's suggestion, for the same reasons as PhilKing.
The Mules give me the classic rock tones of the LP players in your influences, and I use a strat/etc for the other tones.
If you're trying to get into the ballpark for all of your influences, from the one guitar, I suspect Tim's suggestion would suit you better.
However - if you have a strat/etc up your sleeve and "are open to getting more BKPs when you've heard and felt what all the fuss is about..." :lol:, then I'd probably go for Mules in the LP.
And welcome to the forum :D
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I rarely argue against Tim's recommendations....................
.................in this case...................
..........I won't either.
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alright, thanks to all of you who've responded so far!
the thing is, i really like the tones i hear from Peter Green on the album/songs i have - it feels like i really get a cloose sound to that already though O_o
I have a question though: Peter's tone sounds really really thin in comparison to Claptons Beano LP sound, Kossofs Fire and Water album sound, jimmy page's "Good Times Bad Times" and even Bloomfields sound on "paul butterfield blues band" (album) - why is that? is that just the recording (as I suspect it is in the case of jimmy page), but afaik, since all recordings were made around the same time, that all albums used the "primitive" recording techniques they had back then, right? what other reason is there for this?
oh, and the booster/low output pickup theory sounds interesting - any more info on that? i believed that most of these guys used '59 LPs, which would then equal a mule pickup set, no?
anyway, as a few people said, i did at first want to get a more single coil tone out of my LP (that was when i was crazy about jimi and the chili peppers), but Ive come to like the really typical, woody LP sound.
cheers, and thanks for the warm welcome!
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I have a question though: Peter's tone sounds really really thin in comparison to Claptons Beano LP sound, Kossofs Fire and Water album sound, jimmy page's "Good Times Bad Times" and even Bloomfields sound on "paul butterfield blues band" (album) - why is that? is that just the recording (as I suspect it is in the case of jimmy page), but afaik, since all recordings were made around the same time, that all albums used the "primitive" recording techniques they had back then, right? what other reason is there for this?
It's the "out of phase" setting of his Les Paul, with both pickups on together, that gives the thin sound. This is what the PG Blues set replicates. With just one pickup selected you get the "full" sound as normal :)
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and that "full sound" would get the tones of the beano album, page's tone, and all the other fuller sounding stuff?
"merry go round" and "rollin man" are played using the inbetween out of phase position then?
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I can't comment on specific songs as I'm not that familiar with Peter Green's work I'm afraid.
One thing you might not be able to replicate with the PG Blues set is the tone Clapton gets on 'Hideaway' (as an example). I think he uses both pickups together on that one but with them IN phase, which the PG Blues pickups can't do without extra switching.
For maximum tonal choice, you could get a set of Stormy Mondays with four conductor wiring and a push/pull pot. You could then wire the pickups up so that you could have the push/pull giving in/out of phase. That way you can cover Peter Green and Clapton/Page with the same guitar. :)
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It's almost defeating the object of the PG Blues set, but presumably you could special-order them with 4-conductor wiring and have the best of both worlds?
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actually, i talked to Tim about that, since I thought Peter Greens Out of phase sound was just "any" out of phase sound too...his reply "The PG Blues mid tone holds up more bass resposne than usual out of phase and the signal drop isn't as drastic either." - so I guess if i want the PG sound, I'd have to get a PG set, not just any 4cond. wire pickup set - Tim on that in our email conversation "You'll only get the real PG Blues tone with the neck pickup wound correctly and with the right type of wire, just flipping the phase of a normal humbucker doesn't get the same tone."
I am assuming that I'd get a normal inbetween sound if i install a switch to put the two pickups back in phase though - so that would cover the clapton sound (actually, the "fuller" clapton beano sound i was talking about is the sound of hideaway:P)
I am sort of worried that the neck pickup, which apparently is different from other humbucking neck pickups, will be, i dunno, weird...different, if you get what i mean...would i get a normal neck pickup sound?
cheers!
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I don't think the reverse wind (or reverse magnet, or whatever it is) will have any effect on the solo neck pickup sound - it only makes a difference with both pickups on.
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thats awesome! i was hoping somebody would say that!
so a PG blues set (4 conductor wire) along with a booster along the line it is?
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Herman
I see that you are worried that the PGs might be too thin sounding compared to the Clapton Beano or Cream tones and to Jimmy Page tones. They are not.
I think you'll find that in the up or down PUu selector positions they sound like a really good Les Paul Standard - have a listen to
The fantastic Bare Knuckle PGs Peter Greens thru a Tokai Les Paul (Love Rock) into A Koch Twintone (no effects)
http://www.myspace.com/drpickup
The Waiting Blues
-middle position
Fishing ( No thats not a PRS Santana in the Intro)
-Neck and Bridge Pickups
I'm Tore Down
- all three positions
Recorded at an French Army base - June 2008.
Also read Stringkillers review of the the fantastic Bare Knuckle PGs Peter Greens on Harmony Central
Enjoy and as always feedback apreciated
Bear in mind that most of the first two Zepellin LPs were in fact recorder on a Telecaster.
Bruce Stringkiller
Something to check are Pgs available in 4 conductor wiring configuration?
What amazes me with these pickups as I said on the Harmony central is small increases and decreases of any of the two volumes or tone pots make for some pretty drastic tone shaping - from thick to thin and back in the middle PU selector position.
Bruce Stringkiller
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^thanks for that! i really liked the santana tone, and am happy to hear that something like that is possible with the PG blues set as well!
oh, and i totally agree on the diming the buckers part:P, thast what ive been doing..
very nice and informative review btw
have you tried the PGs through a (treble)booster?
what would sure be awesome is if someone could play the same lick on mules and on PG blues...but i doubt anyone owns both sets...
oh, and my name's hendrik - herman the german is just a nickname
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Hendrick
No I haven't tried a treble Booster ( Yes I know that whatt Clapton says he used with the Marshall on the Beano album)
The last time I sed one of those was in the sixties on a non top boost Vox - wow long time ago.
If anything I normally have my Mids on full,
Bass as much as I can before Flabbing out and treble way down with LPs and Telecasters.
Yesterday I was playing My Tokai LP at a gig and I noticed I had the treble on zero and the bright switch on - the amp was a Laney VC 30 with 2*10s - I noticed as I don't normally turn the treble down that much.
Good luck with your quest and keep us informed (with soundclips) of your choice. Bear in mind the amp has a big role to play in all this.
Cheers
Bruce
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Also Peter Green used a Strat on some things (Black Magic Woman for example), so some of the sounds could be that. I think a big recommendation for the PG Blues is that Gary Moore is using them. The problem with recording Mules, PG Blues, SM's etc, is that they really need to be in the same guitar to give the result you are looking for (for example my 335 has AII Stormy Mondays, but they sound really different in there to what they would in a Les Paul. I actually don't have any Mules in Les Pauls (I have them in a Zemaitis clone, PRS Artist and hollowbody PRS clone. My LP's have Black Dog set, PG Blues set and Riff Raff/SM.
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^well the PG sounds i like a lot are green manalishi and oh well - thats definitely LP right?
oh and its too bad that you own the mules but dont have em in a LP...ah well, nothing i can do about it :(
would it be possible for you to record the same short lick with your PGLP and the artist with mules?
i think that would help quite a bit for me to get to know the differences in voicing and the likes
only if its no problem for you though!
^^i'll definitely keep you informed on what my decision is going to be in the end
my amp's a champion 600, the goal is to ultimately have an ac30 - i just do not see the point in having a 30w tube amp at home...
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Go to the Players forum. There's plenty of clips with Mules in LPs, and a few of the PG Blues.
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but then i'd have the different playing styles, amps, mics/recordings in there as well while i just want the different pickups...
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That's life I'm afraid. The clips are a very good indication of a pickup's ability and tone. Playing style doesn't affect tone, but if someone has a clip of a guitar and amp similar to yours it will give a good idea of it's capabilites. There can never be a 'pure' pickup test, unless you use the EXACT same settings and guitar for each one, slightly impractical as certain pickups are voiced and designed for certain types of guitar, the 'true' designed tone won't shine through.
Remember if you're not happy with your choice BKP will exchange the pickups within 14 days to something else. But around 90% of the time Tim and the team are bang on with pickup suggestions. You can't go wrong if you listen to the staff, they know their stuff.
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Yeah, and besides, my tone varies from day to day. It might be my fingers feeling different, the strength of my picking hand, the strings aging, the humidity in the air, or it might be dwarfgoblin-people sneaking in at night to change my amp settings, I don't know. Point is, a complete unbiased comparison is virtually impossible. But if you listen to enough, you WILL learn to hear the common characterics of the different pickups.
And +1 on the staff.
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you both have a point there...
the thing is that I know I'll like either set (its between PG Blues and Mules for me right now) but i'll never know if the other set might not have been even better...
ill check the clips section!
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the thing is that I know I'll like either set (its between PG Blues and Mules for me right now) but i'll never know if the other set might not have been even better...
Buy both! :P
I do sympathise about the clips, it's very difficult to get much from them unless they're A/B comparisons. But as Badgermark said, different pickups are voiced and designed for different types of guitar, so even A/B comparisons are problematic.
I also agree with il˙ti that you can hear the distinct characterics of the different pickups, but it's generally something that only becomes apparent (to me) once I've actually owned those models! :roll: :wink:
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see...i dont wanna go through the hassle to actually just send back the PGs (if i decide to get them) to try out the mules...-_-
damn this is a hard decision:P
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Ireally think you will like the PG Blues set. I have many of the same favourites that you do, and I really love the sound of the PG Blues. They can get Paul Kossoff's tone (he uses quite clean tones but with a lot of volume to get his overdrive sound and a wah to tweek the tone), they can get the sustain required for the start of Supernatural, and they absolutely nail things like Need Your Love So Bad. If you add a treble/mid boost (I have a reissue Rangemaster, but the Phil Hilbourne Thundertome(?) sounds incredible for this), you will get all the rest of the sounds you want (assuming you have a valve amp that is).
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^thanks for that! i really appreciate that - i was actually thinking about getting a booster some time soon...
is there enough output in them to get a black dog sorta sound with only a marshall plexi (or whatever small amp he used to record that) - assuming you have one?
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Yes, but if you only have a plexi it will be pretty loud!! I have a few amps, but with my Silver Jubilee I can get that fat lead tone. I have a JTM45 clone, but with a master volume and with a boost to the mids I can get the Jimmy Page sounds.
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awesome! i wasnt saying i have a plexi...its just that you'll only get the right tone through the same setup right?
it looks like, at the moment, i'll be getting a PG Blues set - makes more sense to me, because if i do happen to not like em that much (and the only reason i can see me not liking them is them not having enough output) i can always get mules or something
cheers!
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alright, thanks to all of you who've responded so far!
the thing is, i really like the tones i hear from Peter Green on the album/songs i have - it feels like i really get a cloose sound to that already though O_o
I have a question though: Peter's tone sounds really really thin in comparison to Claptons Beano LP sound, Kossofs Fire and Water album sound, jimmy page's "Good Times Bad Times" and even Bloomfields sound on "paul butterfield blues band" (album) - why is that? is that just the recording (as I suspect it is in the case of jimmy page), but afaik, since all recordings were made around the same time, that all albums used the "primitive" recording techniques they had back then, right? what other reason is there for this?
oh, and the booster/low output pickup theory sounds interesting - any more info on that? i believed that most of these guys used '59 LPs, which would then equal a mule pickup set, no?
anyway, as a few people said, i did at first want to get a more single coil tone out of my LP (that was when i was crazy about jimi and the chili peppers), but Ive come to like the really typical, woody LP sound.
cheers, and thanks for the warm welcome!
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Regardless of the pickups you install, one thing you can do if you don't like your treble to drop off when you turn down the volume on a Les Paul is to modify your guitar for so-called* "1950's style" wiring.
All that is required is to re-solder one wire, so it is not exactly rocket science and you can change it back if you don't like it. Look it up.
* vintage guitar geeks like myself will be quick to point out that the term "1950's wiring" is a misnomer. Lots of 1950's Les Pauls left the factory with "modern" wiring the same as Les Pauls have today. Some even had "1950's wiring" on one pickup and "modern" on the other. It seems to depend on who was manning the soldering station that day.
Gibson has always had QC quirks, even in Elder Days.