Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: hamfist on August 30, 2008, 11:24:29 AM
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Whatever pickup I try in the neck position of my Tokai LP, it's always too muddy for my tastes, compared to the bridge pickup. I've got a Dimarzio Fred in the neck position at the moment, which I chose specifically for it's bright, lowish output and low bass response, but it's still too muddy for me.
I know little about guitar wiring, but know that I have 500K pots all round in there. Would I get a bit more brightness out of it by actually disconnecting the tone control for the neck p'up ?
If so, what exactly do I disconnect from what ?
Or are there any other capacitors or resistors I could stick in somewhere to help things. I've got a good supply of both and am fairly handy with a soldering iron.
Thanks in advance for any advice. I know some of you guys are sh1t hot on this stuff.
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I had the same problem with my Epi LP. What kind of caps do you have in there?
Your tone will definitely brighten up if you disconnect your tone pots. I played mine for quite a while with the tone pots disconnected. Just unsolder and remove the caps. Leave the tone pots unsoldered, they will be rendered useless.
This way your signal will only be going through your volume pots.
You may find that after a while you miss the versatility of your tone controls like I did. It may be worth checking out some good caps. I also replaced all that cheap Chinese wire (and the pots as well). It did wonders for my tone. :D
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I had the same problem with my Epi LP. What kind of caps do you have in there?
Your tone will definitely brighten up if you disconnect your tone pots. I played mine for quite a while with the tone pots disconnected. Just unsolder and remove the caps. Leave the tone pots unsoldered, they will be rendered useless.
This way your signal will only be going through your volume pots.
You may find that after a while you miss the versatility of your tone controls like I did. It may be worth checking out some good caps. I also replaced all that cheap Chinese wire (and the pots as well). It did wonders for my tone. :D
I don't have any caps on the neck p'up pot, only the bridge. My understanding is that caps across the vol pot will only affect things when the vol pot is not on 10. Am I wrong ? I generally use my vol pots on 10 anyway
If caps might make a difference, where would they go ?
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He's taking about tone caps, the ones that join the vol to the tone. If you disconnect the cap fromthe vol pot, you're removed the tone pot from the circuit...
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If you don't have a tone cap installed on the neck than putting one in certainly wouldn't brighten things up. I would just disconnect the tone control on your neck. You signal is affected by every pot, capacitor, and whatever else it goes through. By wiring it directly to the volume pot, you are greatly reducing any tone loss on the way to your amp.
Out of curiosity, what other neck PUP's have you tried out?
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If it turns out too muddy even with the tone control out of the circuit, maybe you could try replacing the 500K volume with a 1Meg?
(I'm amazed you find the Fred too dark as a neck pickup, but we all have our individual tastes! :) )
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Out of curiosity, what other neck PUP's have you tried out?
Dimarzio Air Norton, Dimarzio PAF, the Tokai standard pickup.
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If it turns out too muddy even with the tone control out of the circuit, maybe you could try replacing the 500K volume with a 1Meg?
(I'm amazed you find the Fred too dark as a neck pickup, but we all have our individual tastes! :) )
I'll try disconnecting the tone control (I never use it anyway). If that's not enough, I'll consider a 1Meg pot. Although thinking about it, will a 1meg pot be brighter than no tone pot, or not ?
I can tell that the Fred is brighter than any other pickup I've used in this guitar's neck position, but I promise you it's still waaaaaay dark in this particular guitar.
Hmmm, I wonder if I've got a faulty pot .
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What amp are you playing through?
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I'll try disconnecting the tone control (I never use it anyway). If that's not enough, I'll consider a 1Meg pot. Although thinking about it, will a 1meg pot be brighter than no tone pot, or not ?
It certainly will if you leave the tone pot disconnected! :) That's what I was assuming.
And I think even if you reconnect the tone, 1Meg vol + 500K tone will be brighter than 500K vol + no tone. Although I have no idea how to calculate if that's right!
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What amp are you playing through?
I've played this guitar extensively through various amps :-
AC30 Heritage
Rockerverb 50
50W Plexi clone
Jtm45 clone
Miles Platting V-50
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I'm surprised that those pickups were all too muddy, especially the DiMarzio PAF which I thought was quite a bright pickup. I would go with the suggestion above and replace the neck humbucker volume pot with a 1M one. If it's still too muddy after that, maybe look at amp settings.
My fave neck humbucker when I want zero mud is the Duncan '59 - if you get one calibrated for the neck position, they are generally around 7.5k and together with the A5 magnet make for a bright tone.
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I used a DiMarzio PAF Pro as a neck pickup once and found it really bright - slightly less midrange than the Fred, less bass than the Air Norton or PAF.
Of course it depends what you've got in the bridge to complement it.
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I reckon your guitar is at fault Alan. If you've tried several pickups and pots etc then there's no hope. It's just a dull piece of wood.
My LP had the opposite problem in that it was too bright with no bass and it sounded really thin. I traded it as nothing I did made it any better. It's all in the wood....
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I reckon your guitar is at fault Alan. If you've tried several pickups and pots etc then there's no hope. It's just a dull piece of wood.
My LP had the opposite problem in that it was too bright with no bass and it sounded really thin. I traded it as nothing I did made it any better. It's all in the wood....
Could be Dave. I'm no expert on guitars at all, but it's not like that at all on the bridge pickup. In fact, on the bridge pickup it's the nicest (and one of the brightest) LP's I've ever played.
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I reckon your guitar is at fault Alan. If you've tried several pickups and pots etc then there's no hope. It's just a dull piece of wood.
My LP had the opposite problem in that it was too bright with no bass and it sounded really thin. I traded it as nothing I did made it any better. It's all in the wood....
Could be Dave. I'm no expert on guitars at all, but it's not like that at all on the bridge pickup. In fact, on the bridge pickup it's the nicest (and one of the brightest) LP's I've ever played.
Well, I would think that if you can get a decent tone out of your bridge pickup, than it's just the matter of finding the right neck pickup. My Epi Lp is dark as well. Originally I had AIV Mules in it and it was quite a dark tone. I swapped them out for a SM/RR combo and they suit it perfectly.
Vintage neck pickups are notoriously a bit dark. Not muddy, I just mean that they have darker overtones. It took me a while to find a neck HB that wasn't too dark for my taste. Have you tried an EQ pedal?
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OK, I opened her up yesterday and totally disconnected the tone pot from the neck humbucker. Things are significantly better now. So much so, that I am happy with the situation. The bridge and neck tones seem to complement each other nicely now.
Thanks for all the suggestions and advice guys !
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It's muddy because it's a LP :wink:
you should get a guitar made of japanese folded steel that has been tempered in the firepits of hell :D
(hope I didn't step on any LP-lovers toes. out of several dozens LPs I tried I only liked one! a 80's usa cuosom)
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It's muddy because it's a LP :wink:
you should get a guitar made of japanese folded steel that has been tempered in the firepits of hell :D
(hope I didn't step on any LP-lovers toes. out of several dozens LPs I tried I only liked one! a 80's usa cuosom)
BOOOOOOO!!!! :lol:
Of course, they can be muddy. But it's something that we LP players just have to learn to deal with.
You know, kind of like Strat players having to deal with, uhh, playing Strats. :lol:
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(hope I didn't step on any LP-lovers toes. out of several dozens LPs I tried I only liked one! a 80's usa cuosom)
We are going to see YOU screaming muddy now :twisted:
Just kidding :lol:
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It's all in the wood....
I dont think the wood/acoustic sound actually makes as much difference as people would say.. Obviously it needs to sustain well but as an example the Pearl I bought off you tends to sound quite dull when played unplugged but plugged in with a set of decent pickups its just as bright as my Epi LP which is a lot brighter when playing unplugged.
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It's all opinion isn't it Tom? I've had guitars where a change of pickups/electrics etc couldn't cure excessive brightness or muddiness. The inherent tone of the guitar came through no matter what. The only way to get round it would be to put very high output pickups into those guitars so that's all you hear. But that kinda defeats the object to me, and doesn't help with clean or light crunch tones.
I think it's a combination of the wood itself and the way it's put together.....
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Yeah good point actually, the Charvel I had sounded scooped and fizzy no matter what I put in it.
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I dont think the wood/acoustic sound actually makes as much difference as people would say..
is this an attempt at wez-baiting? ;)
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It's all opinion isn't it Tom? I've had guitars where a change of pickups/electrics etc couldn't cure excessive brightness or muddiness. The inherent tone of the guitar came through no matter what. The only way to get round it would be to put very high output pickups into those guitars so that's all you hear. But that kinda defeats the object to me, and doesn't help with clean or light crunch tones.
I think it's a combination of the wood itself and the way it's put together.....
I had a Les Paul classic plus that way a bright, zingy guitar. Was great for clean funky stuff and lightly overdriven pop/rock, actually it sounded more like a 335 than a Les Paul. Since I'm 95% a blues/rock player and like fatter tones, I ended up with a higher output pickup to compensate for the brightness - ended up with a Duncan Distortion but eventually sold the guitar after two years of battling with it and also because my other LP was far superior in every way.
My Epi Explorer was picky with pickups too (too dark), tried a Nailbomb, Black Dog, Lawrence L500XLs but eventually got sick of arsing around with it and put EMGs in there since it was my metal guitar anyway.
otoh, my LP std that I've had for the past 14 years sounds great with any pickup I've ever had in there. It's just a great guitar which actually sounds pretty dead and uninspiring acoustically, but textbook classic Les Paul tone plugged in.
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Very interesting stuff guys!
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One thing that makes Dimarzio pickups a little darker sounding is their use of a brass baseplate (even when it painted black)
Gibson, Duncan and of course BKP use Nickel Silver Baseplates
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One thing that makes Dimarzio pickups a little darker sounding is their use of a brass baseplate (even when it painted black)
Gibson, Duncan and of course BKP use Nickel Silver Baseplates
its true that most dimarzio have brass baseplates, though some of their virtual vintage models appear to have nickle.
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I dropped a reply on previous topic
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14370.0.
One thing to check first before a guitar is condemed, is to invest in a multimeter, and check the actual value of the potentiometers. Pots sold as 500K, in reality, are rarely close to the nominal value due to manufacturing tolerances
+/- 20%, in some cases. Too higher value, the guitar will sound bright and thin, too lower value and the guitar will sound dull and lifeless. Once your pots values are correct, say for Humbuckers, (500K ohms) and using the correct capacitor (0.022uF) you should get a decent tone from the instrument. If you think the guitar is still too bright, you can always roll off some more highs by increasing the size of the cap to say, 0.033uF or even 0.047uF. (However, I personally have never had to change the cap from the norm 0.022uF).
With reference to (_Tom ) post, I have a Charvel 475 (Basswood Body, Rosewood Neck) to which I installed first a VHII. For some reason the pickup seemed to "fight" the guitar. I couldn't quite put my finger on it but it didn't sound right. However, the guitar now has a Nailbomb fitted, everything is now in order, and it also compliments the two Irish Tours also fitted.
However, the VHII in the right guitar would sound the dogs doodles. Van Halen's original guitar I believe had Basswood body and Maple neck, which probably is what makes all the difference.
I found this article on why PRS neck pickups on their 22 Fret guitars sound dull in comparison to PRS 24 fret guitars.
http://www.edroman.com/guitars/prs/prsvsprs.htm
The Custom 22 pickup is situated in a location where the 24th fret harmonic falls. There is a node or phase cancellation at that location. This simply means that a lot of the midrange frequencies are gonna go bye bye because they are cancelled out. You will get a muddy sound just like a Les Paul on a 22 fret model whereas the 24 fret version pickup falls off axis or away from the node. You will get a more clear lively rhythm sound. The 22 fret sounds good for lead but at what sacrifice. The 24 sounds good for lead also but on the 24 you don't have to sacrifice your midrange frequencies.
Cheers
SJ
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Dude, don't listen Ed Roman (http://216.211.140.132/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/icon_thumright.gif)
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Dude, don't listen Ed Roman (http://216.211.140.132/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/icon_thumright.gif)
+1
or anyone who talks about the harmonic nodes and pickup placement.
1. A harmonic node is very narrow, the amount of string a pickup sees is quite wide.
2. Harmonic nodes move when you fret the string which would ruin ed's theory in all but the open positions.
Pickups get bassier the further you get from the bridge. On a 22fret guitar you can put the neck pickup further away from the bridge so this means it sounds bassier or some would say muddier. on a 24 fret guitar it is closer to the bridge and not as dark.... everything else being equal
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Pickups get bassier the further you get from the bridge. On a 22fret guitar you can put the neck pickup further away from the bridge so this means it sounds bassier or some would say muddier. on a 24 fret guitar it is closer to the bridge and not as dark.... everything else being equal
Further from this, why is a Les Paul neck muddy? In some cases, some may be, but not all LP neck pickups are definately muddy
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ah well... thats the hard bit. individuality of woods, subtle differences in pickups/electronics/amps/cables/strings/plectri ;)........... maybe even just a difference in individual perception and expectations.
if i had one i found too muddy i would try other pickups and pot/capacitor values till i found one that worked for me
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Dude, don't listen Ed Roman (http://216.211.140.132/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/icon_thumright.gif)
Ed Roman is an absolute tosser, which isn't to say everything he claims on his site is rubbish...
But I like the way a neck pickup sounds on a 22-fret guitar, whether there's a node or phase cancellation or whatever, I don't care.
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Dude, don't listen Ed Roman (http://216.211.140.132/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/icon_thumright.gif)
Ed Roman is an absolute tosser, which isn't to say everything he claims on his site is rubbish...
That's right, mate... But I still think that he should not be listened... you know, you can get confused and take as truth some rubbish think he says, as why the old woods are better than the new :lol:
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But I still think that he should not be listened... you know, you can get confused and take as truth some rubbish think he says, as why the old woods are better than the new :lol:
But didn't you know that:
(a) All guitars made outside the US are rubbish. Especially ones made in Asia. :o
(b) All guitars which don't have 24 frets, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA maple tops and 700-piece pearl inlays are absolute rubbish.
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i liked this statement from the page about the PRS's
Usually foreigners are the least informed customers
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Phill: :lol: And all vintage guitar are rubbish...
Wez, trying to find a site about Roman that tell some stories worse than that... Can't find now :?
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oh.. i know there is worse!!
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Sadly where Ed Roman used to share a few tidbits of useful info /gossip most of what he writes is a direct sales pitch towards his own guitars
He also shamelessly rips off other small luthiers by copying their work and releasing it as one of his originals
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I met Ed Roman many years ago when he used to be in Danbury. I was looking at PRS's and he offered to bulid me any style PRS I wanted - and give me all the PRS warranties!!
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Just to be a pedant ;)
However, the VHII in the right guitar would sound the dogs doodles. Van Halen's original guitar I believe had Basswood body and Maple neck, which probably is what makes all the difference.
I presume you are referring to Frankenstein, which has an ash body.
Eddie also used his Ibanez Destoyer a lot on the early albums (You really Got Me, for example), and that has a
body made of sen (Castor aralia, or Kalopanax), although EVH himself mistakenly thought it was korina and mistakenly bought a light coloured mahogany body thinking that too was korina, thus building his black and yellow bumblebee guitar. No Basswood for Ed until Kramer.
I found this article on why PRS neck pickups on their 22 Fret guitars sound dull in comparison to PRS 24 fret guitars.
http://www.edroman.com/guitars/prs/prsvsprs.htm
The Custom 22 pickup is situated in a location where the 24th fret harmonic falls. There is a node or phase cancellation at that location. This simply means that a lot of the midrange frequencies are gonna go bye bye because they are cancelled out. You will get a muddy sound just like a Les Paul on a 22 fret model whereas the 24 fret version pickup falls off axis or away from the node. You will get a more clear lively rhythm sound. The 22 fret sounds good for lead but at what sacrifice. The 24 sounds good for lead also but on the 24 you don't have to sacrifice your midrange frequencies.
This 'node' is only applied to open strings, as you move up the neck, the node also moves up incrementally and therefore the pickup position makes very little difference. I presume it's only a problem for people who sit with their guitars bashing away at the open strings for hours on end. If this is how Mr Roman plays then, all the best to him and his 24 frets.
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Further from this, why is a Les Paul neck muddy? In some cases, some may be, but not all LP neck pickups are definately muddy
+1.
Most Les Pauls often tend to sound muddy