Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: varkunus on September 13, 2008, 10:03:48 AM
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As some of you might have seen on UG i have made countless threads about a new amp to buy. I have just purchased a blade classic series guitar which is quite frankly insanely good. But my DSL401 still isnt pleasing me with its fuzzy sound and lacking low end. So I am looking for a new amp although I dont have much money, pretty much what ever I sell my DSL401 for...which looking on ebay wont be much. I want a HUGE variety of sounds from george clinton, funky cleans, to rock, to gritty SRV blues, to gilmour bite (solo), to smooth gary moore/eric johnson type tones to vintage sabbath, to chunky AC30 cream type tones, to full out mesa recto chug chug. Now I understand I wont get all these sounds perfectly unless i splash some serious cash, but I would like all these sounds as best as I can get, the hard rock/mesa metal sound, and smooth and rich liquid neck pickup lead tone is the most important though I would say.
Now Ive looked at virtually everything, laney vc30s (not enough gain and wrong voicing), laney lv300s (proably not good for lower gain stuff), plexi/800 clones, bugera 333xl and 6262 (the 333xl being the favourite as it seems more versatile but possibly still to fizzy, also comes with poor tubes, ok speaker and has rumored reliability issues as well as being a huge un crankable 120w). Now I saw george clinton and parliment the other weak and although there a funk band as you probably know (infact the don of funk) their lead guitarist was using a mesa dual recto and was getting a great sound out of it, very smooth and thick. But then i stumbled across the roland cube 60w and has initially over looked it, now from sound clips it sounds pretty good, should be versatile enough and is in my price range. Now i know its not a tube amp, and will probably get slagged of due to the tube elitist, but if it sounds good quite frankly I dont care. Although I am sure here as BKPs you wont be like on UG. Basically just wondering what I should do, what should I buy. Im confused and looking for you guys to help...!
Thanks Richard
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You need a modeller. That's all I know......
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so the cube? Unless i get like a hughes and kettner triamp or something
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I agree, start looking into modellers.
Pod, Tonelab, Sansamp stuff
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I was looking at gt10s but there expensive, plus id have to buy a decent amp to use it on which would work well with it. And i dont really like pods, and i did check the trademark 60 amp (sensamp) but even in the mesa mode its still just meant to sound like a hotrodded marshall. Anyway what do people think of the cube because that seems the most popular option along with the bugera
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fender have a modeling amp, ive not used it but the blurb on the site about it sounds quite impressive.. could mean nothing tho. http://www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2290000010 (http://www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2290000010)
Try an orange AD30 aswell.. or a Rocker 30 if you want a bit more gain
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i did look at them and i dont think the rocker 30 will quite have the right voicing for some of the stuff i play though. Shame, plus its to expensive because for metal i would have to buy a seperate pre amp
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i just remember what about the vox ad100vt?
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I agree with the other folks - you're definitely a candidate for a modeller.
I use a VOX Tonelab LE into a mixing desk and powered studio monitors - this is for home use only, I don't gig anymore. I'm using it mainly for JTM45, AC30, and Fender Blackface type sounds (in that order). It does more "metal" but I only dabble in that direction.
I also have a PODXTLive that seems better for more distorted tones to me, I also prefer its delay and modulation effects to the VOX, but it just can't do justice to the JTM45, AC30, and Fender Blackface type sounds like the VOX does.
You'd still have the problem of amplifying the wretched thing. If "amplifier" is the driving force - ie you want to use it live or in rehearsals - I'd suggest looking at the VOX amps that use the same modelling technology as the Tonelab.
I've not tried the Cubes (nor indeed any amp in the last x years!), but I would recommend that you try modelling amps quite extensively before committing. I'm a confirmed "modellor", but I am very aware that it is a compromise.
What I really want is one of them re-issue Marshall 1974X 18 watt combos, and an AC30, and a late 70s Marshall 50 watt 2x12 m/v combo (not sure what amp that is, but I'll know it when I see/hear it), and a JTM45, several types of vintage Fenders, and some assorted 4x12 and 2x12 cabs, and a house to put them in, somewhere to turn them up good and loud, a bassist and drummer who do what I want, a van to transport them with, someone to drive it, ... etc.
So I play through modellers instead :lol:
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Not really, I tried a Rocker 30 with a Blues Driver for a gain boost and got a great metal tone (played with a Schecter too). Not Mesa kind of gain obviously but it can do metal.
The only other thing I'd suggest is a Laney VC50. It's like the VH100R but in a combo. Used, they go for around £300 - £400.
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Absolutely a modeller as said above try out various ones to see which tones you like the most BUT I would also reccomend keeping the or an amp (assuming the FX loop does 100%wet) modellers sound great with DSL's when used to replace the pre-amp, which I think is the weak point of this Marshall.
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for metal i really do love mesa type sound though, i know im hard to please!!! That vox ad series really does does much more "organic" than the cubes, i might settle for one of them. Would 50w be to quiet for band reharsals for dsl401 gets to 4.5 master volume
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oops forgot to say but whats the difference between the ad100vt and the xl?
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I think the Vox AD series would be a good choice. It won't nail everything, but then nothing will in that price range.
You could try looking for a second hand ENGL Screamer or Thunder if your budget can go that far.
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no not really and i didnt like the voicing of those engls only the blackmore really. And what wont it nail? Aslong as it gets a decent cleans tone, smooth creamy and thick neck pickup lead sound, a raunchy marshal roar, and a chugging mesa recto it should be good enough! Although i cant seem to find many mesa clips online. And i assume id have to get the 100w?
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Or the 30w. Why do you say you assume you'd have to get the 100w?
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'seriously have a massdebate with myself over amps...!'
Sounds quite funny :P
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well got ur attention you dirty perv :d Anyway if my 40w all tube dsl is at 4.5 a 50w would be cranked wouldnt it meaning clipping, so a 100w would be better?
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'seriously have a massdebate with myself over amps...!'
Sounds quite funny :P
:lol:
Also, how can it be a mass debate just with yourself :?
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'seriously have a massdebate with myself over amps...!'
Sounds quite funny :P
how come that took till the second page to appear?
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anyway back on topic ad100vt? yay or nay for smooth sounds aswell as mesa chug
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well got ur attention you dirty perv :d Anyway if my 40w all tube dsl is at 4.5 a 50w would be cranked wouldnt it meaning clipping, so a 100w would be better?
You've lost me there- what's the 4.5? And 'clipping' in what context?
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delete
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4.5 master volume at band practice with dsl. And as in harsh solid state clipping
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Ah ok now we're getting somewhere.
In that case I would go for the 100w personally, yes.
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You will probably find its the DSL's speaker that makes some of the harshness.
And you are aware that any OD is clipping? if you want more headroom, turn the master up, and the pre down
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yes obviously od is clipping but the harsh ss clipping
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I'm also going to recommend a different speaker. Something with a higher wattage rating so you have more headroom, it sounds like the speaker is 'farting' as I like to put it.
Also try an eq pedal in the FX loop if the DSL combo has one. It'll take out some of that harsh sound.
Try and exhaust all possibilities before you splash out alot of money on a new amp.
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fact is man i really dont have any money. But i just dont think the dsl voicing is my cup of tea. At music college they had the jcm2000 100w head through a mesa 412 cab. And even that i found it a bit to "shril" for my liking. But would the valvetronix do mesa recto sounds well?
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I think you've got to be realistic here. A Valvetronix is a nice little amp, but if want you really want a Mesa sound you'll be disappointed.
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The DSL has a goldback doesn't it?
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hhhmmm.... i know a mesa tone comes at a price, the patented mesa recto price of £2k. Anyway out of interest have u played the ad100vt? Well its hard to explain the metal tone i want, but imagine a recto low end and sort of slightly muffled sounded, but with more biting mids, and slightly more peavey and nu metal like although i dont play nu metal. But sort of similar to tony iommis - fused tone but much bassier
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I've played the AD30, and it was very good for the price. Versatile and decent-sounding. But it IS a £200 modeller-amp.
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The DSL has a goldback doesn't it?
i duno
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The DSL has a goldback doesn't it?
i duno
Look in the back and let me know. If so, it's a 100w speaker
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hms9o70qiJU i mean this sounds good for marshally stuff. And isnt the 212 meant to be alot better than the smaller wattages due to 12 inch proper(ish) speakers unlike in the 30 where its a 10 inch isnt it? Well i know u wont even get rectifier sounds from a rectifier unless its cranked but if u can imagine a fusion of these tones at my fingertips
the industrial element of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzfPooOzVqc, the sort of bite of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YczYC2yHTM and the low end of this at 14 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67bTpVQfB6U that big biting low end.
Im pretty convinced the ad100vt is smooth enough for gary moore and EJ tones. Just that mesa sound really
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http://www.kietzmann.co.uk/guitars/dsl401/index.htm its stock so here
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For all the stuff you want I'd go with a rack preamp. Ideally it would be something like the Rocktron Prophesy, but they're £950, however, if you look at the second hand market for older and similar products, you will get much of what you want.
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i think id take the ad over the ad XL but listen to the last settting "Damage" at 8.22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGNx9O0d_Sg That very similar to solo tone im going for rich and fluid would the Ad manage to do that>
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I really like the industrial edge on this tone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIY1SzNBj3I although maybe slightly less fizzy. But i like the industrialness and low end there. So you kind of see what im going for
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PSA-1
Poweramp
1x12/2x12
Thats my vote
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a modeller might be worth considering, yeah. at your budget you could probably get to the second-tier of the modellers, the flextone, better vox valvetronixes etc. i'm not too well up on modellers though, i'll leave the suggestions to the other guys here who know more about them than i do. :)
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PSA-1
Poweramp
1x12/2x12
Thats my vote
+1
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wont that be more expensive? Anyway would the vox do a good job?
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just checked the psa1 and its to expensive, plus a power amp plus cab im on for almost £1000. Any cheaper solution or is the vox valvetronixs the solution? I mean it seems to do low gain and cleans fine, just a heavey peavey nu metal type sound (although i dont play nu metal i do quite like the sound) and recto type sound.
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You may be in luck here. I know someone selling a Tech21 rack preamp thing. It's a PSA-1 without the midi memory thing
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I don't know about the vox valvetronix amps, but with a few minutes of tweaking I can get a very good Mesa Dual Rectifier sound from the Tonelab which uses the same technology and amp models, and I think the US HI GAIN model is based on a Peavey and you can get some nice heavy tones from that with a downtuned guitar. So the Valvetronix reactor can do the sort of high gain sound you're looking pretty well if you experiment with the levels. Also, stick a virtual tubescreamer in front of your virtual amp to boost it and turn on the noise reduction as well. Tbh I spend most of my time using the Marshall/Mesa/(Peavey?) models on there. Whether you'd need a valvetronix XL or just the chrome grilled series to match that I'm not sure.
And, scour the B stock and Ex-demo amplifiers online, you might find yourself a very good deal.
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thats what my friend from music college (student) said... the defaults arent great but if you fiddle you can have a great tone. And could i get in touch with the guy whos selling the tech 21? But i did look into trademark amps which use the sans technology. But from what i can gather even the mesa settings sound like a hotrodded marshall. Right well i need to try the ad100vt then, although im still leaving my options open. And would that be and upgrade from a dsl401, or maybe a dsl401 with a speaker upgrade (only a cheap one) and a cheap EQ. Ive looked at clips on youtube but still dont seem to like the upgraded sound much, the fizzyness seems to become fuzzyness, but more harmonic. Also i still dont think it would offer the versatility i need. I have looked into vc50 (gh100r) combos in 50w basically. But everyone is saying they are rather bright and probably wont do the mesa low end im looking for. Also where they are discontinued i would have to buy second hand which could mean i need to replace all the tubes etc. So still undecided really but the ad100vt is the favourite at the moment i would say. Anyone own or played them alot? Say your band mate has one
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thats what my friend from music college (student) said... the defaults arent great but if you fiddle you can have a great tone. And could i get in touch with the guy whos selling the tech 21? But i did look into trademark amps which use the sans technology. But from what i can gather even the mesa settings sound like a hotrodded marshall. Right well i need to try the ad100vt then, although im still leaving my options open. And would that be and upgrade from a dsl401, or maybe a dsl401 with a speaker upgrade (only a cheap one) and a cheap EQ. Ive looked at clips on youtube but still dont seem to like the upgraded sound much, the fizzyness seems to become fuzzyness, but more harmonic. Also i still dont think it would offer the versatility i need. I have looked into vc50 (gh100r) combos in 50w basically. But everyone is saying they are rather bright and probably wont do the mesa low end im looking for. Also where they are discontinued i would have to buy second hand which could mean i need to replace all the tubes etc. So still undecided really but the ad100vt is the favourite at the moment i would say. Anyone own or played them alot? Say your band mate has one
I own the VC50 and it does the low end chug very well. It's got 6L6 valves instead of EL34's and I changed the speakers to Celestion G12K-100's which give it more low end and round off the highs a touch. They can be bright, but only if you don't play with your EQ for a bit. Just keep a look out for one.
However I hear great things about the AD100VT's, I've heard people using it for small clinics at guitar shows and it sounds pretty good.
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yes but thing is with the vc50 is that i would have to pay for tubes and speaker change on top and i really am uptight for budget. And youd have to buy second hand, and i dont mind buying second hand, im all for it, but i could end up with some really bad old tubes. So i duno the ad is still slightly ahead. Also i really like a thick reverb sound and might find some of the onboard effects of the AD useful, although i wont buy the amp based on that, if there good then thats a bonus kind of thing, if not then meh tough luck. Call me a nub but i did like the sound of the AVT amp at music college, it sounded pretty good although it wasnt quite bright enough in a band situation.
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I don't know about the vox valvetronix amps, but with a few minutes of tweaking I can get a very good Mesa Dual Rectifier sound from the Tonelab which uses the same technology and amp models, and I think the US HI GAIN model is based on a Peavey and you can get some nice heavy tones from that with a downtuned guitar. So the Valvetronix reactor can do the sort of high gain sound you're looking pretty well if you experiment with the levels. Also, stick a virtual tubescreamer in front of your virtual amp to boost it and turn on the noise reduction as well. Tbh I spend most of my time using the Marshall/Mesa/(Peavey?) models on there. Whether you'd need a valvetronix XL or just the chrome grilled series to match that I'm not sure.
And, scour the B stock and Ex-demo amplifiers online, you might find yourself a very good deal.
i dont know if the ad has a virtual tubescreamer but i have an MXR overdrive which i prefered to tubescreamers anyway. And i thought the US high gain was based on the soldanos, but what is the UK high gain based on?
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UK high gain is Marshall,
US is Mesa.
Aren'ts the Soldano's a 'super lead overdrive' ie modded Marshall territory
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Ahh theve just announced a new series of valvetronix with 5 preset sounds that are footswitchable, also with more amp models. http://www.voxamps.co.uk/valvetronixVT/vt15-30-50-100.asp. I dont know if i would use all the amp models, but the 5 presets must be handy. I bet it will cost alot more though, any gear nerds played one of these?
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Will let you know soon cos he might not be, but I think he will be ;).
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Ahh theve just announced a new series of valvetronix with 5 preset sounds that are footswitchable, also with more amp models. http://www.voxamps.co.uk/valvetronixVT/vt15-30-50-100.asp. I dont know if i would use all the amp models, but the 5 presets must be handy. I bet it will cost alot more though, any gear nerds played one of these?
I was looking at those earlier - I don't think they're out yet, might be wrong though.
As far as I can make out, the modelling in the existing valvetronix products (including the tonelab LE I have) has moved on in the last few months, and they're in the middle of getting it to market. The VTs look to me like a step down from the Black Diamond "top of the range". Possibly they're to replace the AD stuff eventually? Personally I'm not that interested until they announce a new "tonelab" that uses this technology - so I didn't look much further...
Whether it's an improvement to the modelling, or just an extra X amplifiers/etc that they've modelled, I'm not sure. It does look like they've addressed the "you can only have one stomp on at once" issue that some LE users complain of (eg you can't use a distortion/overdrive pedal model and a wah at the same time in the signal chain - no problem for me, I don't really use dist/od pedals to get tones...)
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hhhm so it might be worth hanging on for they said end of 2008, so thats obviously gona be before xmas. Although i bet they will be more expensive, but if there not then i might go for one, if not im sure the AD prices will drop so i might bag myself a good deal, although if the modelling on the VT series is better it might be worth saving a bit more, but if its just extra amp models i wont use, then, meh. But the 5 channel thing seems to be useful, especially for live situations.
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just checked out that black diamond and it looks pretty darn good so if the new vt has almost as many feature i think they will be about £350-450
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I forgot. What about the Peavey Valveking. They seem pretty versatile and might tick all the boxes so to speak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xBoGWBYuPw
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ow ive almost been talked into getting the vc50, if they sound as good as the vh100r then they are the real mccoy. Also they go pretty cheap, one on ebay for £200 (PLEASE DON BUY IT), I assume this would be a better option to the ad100vt? I mean it would still do a a really thick slightly industrial sounding, big low end mesaish type sound wouldnt it...?
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It's possible. You would need a tubescreamer or overdrive pedal to get a slightly more chuggy sound, but mine seems to be very close to that without one.
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I forgot. What about the Peavey Valveking.
Now that would be funny, if it wasn't very, very sad. Have you ever played a Valveking ?
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you talking about the vc50/vh100r yes? If youve got one id love to speak to you on msn about them
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I forgot. What about the Peavey Valveking.
Now that would be funny, if it wasn't very, very sad. Have you ever played a Valveking ?
No I haven't Mr Arrogance. I'm going by clips on youtube and MP3's which is why I said 'Seem to'.
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i hate flamers there pricks. Anyway have you got the vh100r?
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I used to, but I traded it for a VC50 with CrazyJoe. I loved the VH100R and it's pretty much the same as the VC50. But obviously a bit different because of the speakers and it's an open back combo.
It does need to be turned up loud, it shines when it's played loud like most valve amps. For really tight stuff with my 7 string I use a BodenHamer Bloody Murder or SD-1 with a MXR Eq in the FX loop. It makes it more 'chuggy' and gives the overall sound a little extra kick. Without the pedals it's very marshall like but 'more'. The clean tone is gorgeous, very warm and almost fender'ish'. The mid gain tones are very warm too and has alot of 'depth' in it's tone.
I put G12K-100's in there because of their increased bass frequencies. But the mids are much 'sweeter' sounding and the highs and kinda rounded off so you don't get any high picky treble. They cost about £25 each so they're pretty cheap but one of the best speakers about.
If you get it and think the treble is a bit 'too much' it can be tamed. You just turn the treble control right down and bring the presence control right up. It's something alot of Laney users seem to do. Deffinatly worth the £200 asking price because you get a hell of alot of amp.
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have you got hotmail cause would love to ask you some questions about it, especially since u had the vh100r and now have a vc50. Add lord_varkunus@hotmail.com im online now
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I won't be able to get on msn because I'm helping the family redecorate. I'm just popping on here now and again. But send me and email with all your questions and i'll answer them before the combo goes. stevenpage86@hotmail.com
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check email
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt2Mu71E1Zw&NR=1 well this sounds pretty heavy which is the distortion channel of the vc50
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That's a good reperensentation of what the VC50 can sound like. It gets tighter than that. My tones a bit more saturated than that video and little more 'chuggy' with the VC50 and my mods/pedals.
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well that sounds pretty heavy considering hes got the gain on 5 !!! Would it get that heavy with el34s or only 6l6s? And steve youve been very helpful!! By the ofchance you could do a little vid/sound clip (send in email if you want) of how heavy urs can get, and maybe do some eric johnson type tones. Someone i know who owns the vh100r says the reverb is just "meh" as he puts it, would you say the verb is good or not really, and just average?
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ahh only just got ur email through! Anyway will you be able to go on msn tomorrow or for a short period i mean im online
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I forgot. What about the Peavey Valveking.
Now that would be funny, if it wasn't very, very sad. Have you ever played a Valveking ?
No I haven't Mr Arrogance. I'm going by clips on youtube and MP3's which is why I said 'Seem to'.
Wasn't a comment on you Steve, but a comment about the VK, which is right down there with my least favourite amps of all time. Sorry I offended you, forgot my winking, tongue in cheek emoticon again. :(
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i hate flamers there pricks.
My apologies. I shall endeavour not to be such a prick in the future. :wink:
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no wasnt refering to you as such as people on the BKP are pretty darn sensible, but on UG more just flame stuff without playing it or w/e. Sorry that came across really wrong, was NOT directed at you
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would the vc50 be able to do "i dont want to stop" by ozzy and zakk type of tone? Because there is a vc50 finishing on ebay today so when it finishes i am going to make the owner an off and sell my dsl401 on the condition he holds it for a set price
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would the vc50 be able to do "i dont want to stop" by ozzy and zakk type of tone? Because there is a vc50 finishing on ebay today so when it finishes i am going to make the owner an off and sell my dsl401 on the condition he holds it for a set price
For that tone you'll need several chorus pedals on full, some EMG's and lots of gain
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will the vc50 have enough gain though, and im talking about the main riff with loads of pull offs