Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: _tom_ on October 22, 2008, 04:34:41 PM
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For an assignment at uni we had to record an acoustic instrument with two types of mic - one condenser and one dynamic, in different positions. Anyway here are the results. We couldnt use any fx so they're just the dry tracks. For some reason all the positions and mics sound VERY similar to me, maybe its my speakers? Heres some from position 3 which was about 6" away from the sound hole, directly in front (playings a little sloppy but thats not hugely important for this assignment):
Rode NTK (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=493678&songID=6996024)
SM57 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=493678&songID=6996029)
Thoughts?
This is going to be hard to write up since they all sound the same :? Any reason they sound so similar? Maybe I did something wrong.. but I cant see why.
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Difficult to judge on my PC but one thing that did strike me is that the SM57 had more bottom end and a little more mids. The Rode had a thinner sound to my ears anyway but perhaps picked out the higher frequencies more.
I'd almost say that the SM57 was slightly on the boomy side though I preferred the sound overall.
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I think that's because I raised the input gain a bit on the SM57 one. I probably should've kept the gain the same for all recordings I guess, to give a more accurate comparison?
Anyway I'm going to re-record it with a different condenser and a song with just simple chords instead (David Brent - Freelove Freeway :P), it's odd that the £80 dynamic sounds almost exactly the same as a £250 valve condenser though :?
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any EQ used? - you should notice a massive difference between an SM57 and almost any condenser.
(edit): just had a listen, surely you're using fairly severe EQ to get an SM57 sounding like that (???). I found they typically had too much bass and not enough treble for recording acoustics; the exact opposite tone to what you have there.
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No they're the raw tracks, no processing at all :? Thats whats confusing me, my mate used an MD421 and a Rode NT1 and theres a huge difference.
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The SM57 track is noticeably louder.
mp3 is far from an ideal file format for something as critical as this, but ... 57 has a harsher upper midrange and treble response. Bass response is slower, too.
I'm assuming you used 2 channels of the same mic pre, or at the very least, the identical mic pre and cable lengths were used.
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Well the NTK has its own power supply and so has its own 5 pin xlr to go from the mic to the psu, then out (standard 3 pin xlr) to the wall box into the same input as I used for the 57. That then goes into a Digidesign pro tools control desk I believe, then into pro tools. I'm just going to keep it simple next time and use the same cables and inputs with no external psu.
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Upon re-listening to them again ...
Are you sure you had the mics in different positions as stated in the OP?
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Neither sound great; although I'd be inclined to say I prefer the NTK. The '57 is far too boomy and is missing a lot of high end detail that the NTK is picking up quite well as 38th said. The NTK sounds a little weak however, and could benefit from some e.q. for a little more punch.
From my (very limited) experience I always prefered a matched pair of mics for recording acoustic guitar; one at the soundhole for bass frequencies and one around the 12th fret for the highs.
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Upon re-listening to them again ...
Are you sure you had the mics in different positions as stated in the OP?
No, in those clips they're both in the same position, just a completely different mic. Though the ones in other positions still sound pretty similar. I dunno what was going on because my mate recorded in the same room with different mics and got vastly different results, there was nothing much different other than the mics, the positions etc were basically the same.
Indy we're not allowed to use pairs, just single mics to record one acoustic instrument. From what I can see a pair is best but I cant do that for this assignment. Cant use EQ either since the whole point of the assignment is to show the differences between mic types and positions.
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here's my n00by 2p's worth:
Apart from difference in EQ as mentioned, I'm thinking the NTK has a fuller more spectral/sapced out sound, whilst the 57 really pins down the sound coming straight to it, like the sound of the pick against the strings. I feel in the 57 version you can hear the actually 'playing' more and perhaps in the NTK you can kinda 'hear' the room? This may be me just making this up because it's what I expect to be hearing.... :?
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The NTK has a much smoother top end (listen to the sound of the treble strings), which is a trait of condenser mics.
When positioning mics for acoustic guitars, don't be afraid to try some stuff that initally seems weird. Putting a mic further up the neck, where the neck joins the body can sound nice, especially if you blend it with one a bit further back, behind the bridge a little (I know that you can only have 1 mic for your assignment). Try putting the NTK over the guitarists shoulder (from behind), so it faces down to the guitar. Depending on the room and the guitar, this can have a nice quality to it.
If you haven't had the chance, what you should try to do is:
Get a nice pair of closed back headphones (Sennheiser HD280pro is good for this, and not a bad price... Beyer DT100s are rubbish for this application!) that isolate very well, then get the guitarist to play as you move the mic around- set up a cue mix so that you just hear through the mic. Hold it in your hand and move it in all directions and positions, you'll hear the different character that different areas of the guitar have.
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To my ears there's a huge difference - the SM57 (apart from being louder) is set far more in the bass eq and lacks the subtlety to pick up the harmonic content of the top strings. It does what it does best - picks up the driving bass line but not the full range of the guitar. The NTK is more balanced, picks up the top strings better and their harmonic content.
I could see why someone who likes a more forthright and driving bass end might prefer the SM57 - but for my money the RTK is picking up more of the whole of the guitar.
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aghh I just cant hear these differences at all, not through my computer speakers, SR80s or even the Tannoy monitors in the recording booth :? All I can hear is that the SM57 is a little bit bassier.
My mates set of recordings were much easier to hear the difference in, the MD421 just sounded thin and boxy and each position sounded radically different even though they were basically the same as what I did :?
edit - I can actually hear a bit of difference between the positions now (maybe my ears were just a bit messed up last night?), but its still not huge.
Position 1 (about a foot away from 12th fret, pointed toward the soundhole a bit) shows the difference much more clearly. The NTK is brighter and more natural sounding the 57 a little bit boxy and dull sounding
NTK (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=493678&songID=6998196)
SM57 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=493678&songID=6998198)
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(maybe my ears were just a bit messed up last night?)
I was wondering that tom. I've not had a chance to listen to the clips myself, but I find that my ears just get "tired" after a period of intensive concentration on sounds (eg, never start a final mix after 6 hours of guitar overdubs :lol:)
Also, I'm prone to sinus problems that mess up my hearing from time to time anyway...
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(eg, never start a final mix after 6 hours of guitar overdubs :lol:)
Words to live by! I just listened to a mix i did last night at about 3 in the morning and it's a DISASTER.
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Ok I got them recorded again today, they still sound a bit thin/bland. I guess you just cant get a big warm sound with just one mic and very limited recording skills (plus I guess post processing with fx and stuff would help)? The guitar isnt amazing either, a Crafter D6. With a nicer guitar it could've probably sounded a lot better. For the condenser I couldnt get a C414 so I got a Rode NT3 out instead.
NT3 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=493678&songID=6998649)
SM57 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=493678&songID=6998655)
I know mp3 isnt the greatest format for this but I couldnt be arsed to upload the wavs to anywhere else :P
I can hear that the NT3 is a bit brighter, the 57 sounds a bit dull on the top strings, as before. I need to get some monitors really, Creative T20s arent really suitable :lol: