Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Jopster on November 06, 2008, 10:22:23 PM
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Recently, I discovered BKP and I decided that I needed to own a pair. However, I find it quite difficult to choose a pickup, so I really hope some of you 'clever boys' can help me out. It's really appreciated!
OK, so I decided to upgraded the pickups in my great sounding Gibson '76 RI Explorer. It's mahogny body, ebony fretboard and the pickups are 496R in the neck and 500T in the bridge.
Actually, I'm quite pleased with the overall sound of my guitar. You might ask: Why fix it, if it ain't broken... However, I'm certain that BKPs WILL be an upgrade to my guitar/sound.
So, basically I'm looking for a pickup that is similar to the 500T - only 'better'. The thing I like about the 500T is that it is dynamic and feels full of life (not sterile like e.g. active EMGs). I really like that. Another thing I like is, that it is powerful and it feels more like heavyrock than death metal. This is also the style I play, so it's more like heavyrock - it's not really that brutal (I know the choice of amp also is important...).
I only play rhythm guitar parts (occasional lead themes) in my band, so the pickup I choose must be great at playing chunky 16th/8th palm muted power chords. I think my guitar has a poweful bottom end and I would like to keep this when switching to a new pickup. It should be defined, clear and punchy - not too bright/trebly.
I play standard tuning - though sometimes tune the low E to D. I would characterize our music as "melodic heavy rock", inspired by 80s metal.
I use Engl Blackmore and/or VHT 2/90/2 + Mesa Quad and I might get an E-530 also.
Hope you can help me out here, guys!
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the painkiller is very close to the 500t, but brighter, less distorted, tighter on the low end, more middy, way clearer and quieter
another option with similar output is the miracle man
less mids than the 500t, way more focused and defined, more organic on the lower mids, more punchy on the lows, darker on the low strings, brighter on the high strings
the cold sweat has a bit of the 500t crunch on the mids, less massive sounding, but with a lot more balance and clarity
my favorite ceramic one
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I dont think the PK is much like the 500T. The 500T is rather a bit darker and more scooped, and the lows are WAY more muddy.
Miracle man is the closest BK to the 500T, IMO.
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I dont think the PK is much like the 500T. The 500T is rather a bit darker and more scooped, and the lows are WAY more muddy.
Miracle man is the closest BK to the 500T, IMO.
my friend had both and they sounded very close in voicing in 2 similar guitars of the same wood (both made by the same luthier)
and when he e-mailed Tim looking for a pup similar to the 500t, Pk was the answer
the main difference was the amazing clarity of the painkiller and it had a tighter/leaner bass
I had both too
yes, the 500t is darker and less middy, but it's still a very middy pickup (the middiest gibson pickup for sure)
I agree about the mud, but still has a close voicing
the 500t sounds close to the duncan sh-6 too, but more bassy
the miracle man has a similar grain on the low mids only, but it's voiced very differently
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I've played the 500T in explorers and fitted one to a very high-middy, bassless rhoads V. I've A/B'd against whatever I have in my guitars at the time (as I do with every pickup and guitar that comes through my doors) which included paikillers, miracle man, warpigs and I had some crawlers then too.
In an acoustically thick, but clear explorer its got a load of boomy low end and low mid, mids and high mids somewhat tucked in, and quite a big fizzy high end. Its like a really, really cr@p imitation miracle man (the MM having more high mids and highs, a little less mids, and about the same levels of low end, but crystal clear and tight, as we all know, and more compressed, less dynamic and responsive)
In the V It was still bassy, and the bass was still very undefined, it had quite a lot more highs, and the mids and high mids (which in that guitar should have shot right up if there was much of them to speak of) were just a bit more than level-ish.
The PK in my most similar sounding guitar, acoustically speaking (which it was in at the time), was less bassy and way more middy, and open, and that was a double screw pole version.
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Thanks a lot for your replies, it's very much appreciated!
Before I made this post I was thinking that the Warpig, Miracle Man, Nailbomb, Painkiller or Holy Diver might be the answer. And actually I was recommended to get the Warpig.
Anyway, I want to stress that I'm not looking for an EXACT (and better sounding) copy of the 500T. I'm looking for a pickup that shares the overall capabilities (hope this makes sense).
I find it quite difficult to describe in words what I'm looking for, so I'll just repeat how I'm going to use it:
I only play rhythm guitar parts (occasional lead themes) in my band, so the pickup I choose must be great at playing chunky 16th/8th palm muted power chords. I think my guitar has a poweful bottom end and I would like to keep this when switching to a new pickup. It should be defined, clear and punchy - not too bright/trebly.
And about style:
Another thing I like is, that it is powerful and it feels more like heavyrock than death metal. This is also the style I play, so it's more like heavyrock - it's not really that brutal (I know the choice of amp also is important...).
I play standard tuning - though sometimes tune the low E to D. I would characterize our music as "melodic heavy rock", inspired by 80s metal.
It would be interesting to know what pickup you would recommend, taking these quotes into account, and maybe forget what I said about the 500T.
I'll listen to some more clips :D
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Defined, clear, punchy heavy rock more than metal, not too trebly, forget the 500T - I'm thinking holy diver.
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lol at MDV and Eric! You two!!
I must admit I was thinking Holy Diver here more than MM/PK/NB/WP...
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We cant help it *shrug*
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This is Tim's reply:
over the years I've had to work on lots of Gibson pickups from original PAFs through to their contemporary models so I know them very well. I designed the Cold Sweat humbucker to address alot of the common complaints players had about the Dirty Fingers and likewise the Painkiller humbucker does the same to the 500T-improved clarity and harmonics and smoother highs.
Personally I think you would be happy with either-the Cold Sweat is perfect for heavy rock and easily handles fast palm mutes-the 500T is more aggressive with more weight in the upper mids.
I wonder if he actually made a type in the last sentence? He says "the 500T is more aggressive with more weight in the upper mids." Does he mean "Painkiller" instead of 500T? I better ask him :)
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I think typo.
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This is Tim's reply:
over the years I've had to work on lots of Gibson pickups from original PAFs through to their contemporary models so I know them very well. I designed the Cold Sweat humbucker to address alot of the common complaints players had about the Dirty Fingers and likewise the Painkiller humbucker does the same to the 500T-improved clarity and harmonics and smoother highs.
Personally I think you would be happy with either-the Cold Sweat is perfect for heavy rock and easily handles fast palm mutes-the 500T is more aggressive with more weight in the upper mids.
I wonder if he actually made a type in the last sentence? He says "the 500T is more aggressive with more weight in the upper mids." Does he mean "Painkiller" instead of 500T? I better ask him :)
the 500t is still more aggressive, though (actually dirty)
but both the cold sweat, painkiller and miracle man are a huge a step up from the 500t mud
today, my favorite is definitely the sweat
if you want a bit more thickness, you could ask him how an overwound cold sweat would sound
I'm seriously thinking about ordering a HOT SWEAT version for my next guitar
but the normal version is already very hot
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Yeah, tim told me that he'd be suprised if the CS wasnt powerfull enough for me, and he knows my proclivities on the matter (I did get an overwound miracle man, after all!)
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OK, so I think the choices are getting narrowed down! I think it stands between the PK and CS. After hearing some clips I'm leaning towards the PK, but I need to hear some more to make my final decision. I'll ee if I can find a shootout beetween CS and PK.
So the next thing to look for is a PU for the neck position. It will almost solely be used for clean sounds, what do you recommend here? I heard a clean clip with the PK - it was nice. However, my current favourite is the Rebel Yell - there's a recording with Steve that sounds awesome.
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How about the combination PK in bridge and CS in the neck. How does that sound?
I will primarily use the neck pickup for clean sound.
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They would balance well, volume wise, but if you use them together you'll be dealing with a hell of a lot of mids. The CS neck has sweet-spot-on-a-wah type singing mid and high mid that will add to the PKs big high mid hit, plus middl position is middy = so so so much mids.
Now wait for Darth Hellstyle to say the polar opposite :lol:
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Haha, I'm waiting :lol:
I listened to Antag's clean shootout and I actually like the PK clean a lot. I just feel it's a bit 'boring' to have 2 PKs in my Explorer, but maybe it's really the way to go anyway?
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I just feel it's a bit 'boring' to have 2 PKs in my Explorer, but maybe it's really the way to go anyway?
Yeah, but remember it's not "2 PKs" as such, they're two different pickups which have been designed to work well together as a set.
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I love the PK neck. Great pickup, and I'd choose it over the CS. Actually, I have - my main guitar used to have C-Pig/C-S, now its a PK set that I got for one of my lesser guitars. The decreased lows and slight taming of the low mid snarl of the c-pig, and gain reduction, were worth it for the ludicrous tightness, clarity and un-compressedness of the PK (for such a powerfull pickup, its a BIG harmonic-rich sound that comes from a medium-metal wind + big magnets (3 of them, I believe) giving a tonne of gain but you can still hear the actual chime of your strings because its not so compressed).
Neck wise, I thought the CS was it for me when I first heard it, and for about a year after that. Bell-like cleans, fluid, smooth, middy shred - what more do you want from a neck pickup? But the PK outdid it. Its thicker and fuller, sharper and clearer, notes are more defined, but not razor-like, they still flow very well, its much more aggressive (but not harsh or brittle at all) and still backs off very well, its cleans still have a chime to them, but they have a more low mid than the CS and are more balanced (more of a broader mid hump than the CS) and its generally utterly awesome. Its the only ceramic neck that I (knowingly) like, and it my favourite neck, too - thats gotta say something.
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That's truly GREAT info, thanks a lot! I'm actually happy that I don't "have" to find another flavor. Nice, clean and simple - that's how I like it :D
Now I'm still waiting for Eric :lol:
BTW: What exactly does it exactly mean that a set is calibrated? What do I get from a calibrated set compared to two 'ordinary' pickups?
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What exactly does it exactly mean that a set is calibrated? What do I get from a calibrated set compared to two 'ordinary' pickups?
It just means you get a neck and bridge model of the "same" pickup, which, as I mentioned above, are actually two different pickups which Tim has designed to work well together as a set.
When you order you'll see that whenever you buy a humbucker you have to state bridge or neck position. If you bought a PK bridge pickup today and a PK neck pickup next week, it would be exactly the same as buying a PK calibrated set. :)
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Aaah, hehe quite uncomplicated then :)
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You'll be OK, it'll all make sense when you order! :wink:
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Calibrated means the output of each pickup is ballanced against the other so you dont get big vol changes
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They would balance well, volume wise, but if you use them together you'll be dealing with a hell of a lot of mids. The CS neck has sweet-spot-on-a-wah type singing mid and high mid that will add to the PKs big high mid hit, plus middl position is middy = so so so much mids.
Now wait for Darth Hellstyle to say the polar opposite :lol:
your pointy long ears must have been getting old, jedi (http://www.wonderboy.org.uk/ubb/graemlins/jedi.gif)
:lol:
the CS neck has no wah mids
it's still a hot PAF type pickup with a very slight mid cut, common in most low output alnico 5 pickups
I usually don't like that, but the non-lack of presence and the amazing clarity of it made me appreciate this pup a lot
the MM neck has a ton more mids and sustain than the CS, but it's no nearly as pleasing (to me)
the Miracle Man bridge overpowered the CS neck a bit in my les paul, so I believe the Painkiller will be even louder
no big deal, though
duncan sells totally unmatched output sets, like custom/59 or jb/jazz, and no one complains about it
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If nothing else, this epic battle between Yomark and Darth Hellstyle shows how difficult it would be to produce those "tone charts" we're expecting on the website update.
(Looks like Axl is going to win that race, incidentally, and he didn't even know he was in it... )
It's obviously a very subjective business!
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The dark side of the tone has led you astray!
The CS necks wahry mids are quite evident.
Philly - I got a pickup testing plan actually. I doubt I'll get round to it, at least in the near future, but its easy enough to make a rig that you can measure various things about pickups with. A 25" stick (preferably a non-magnetic metal one) with a clamp at one end and a tuner at the other, a pickup ring and fake cavity mounted to it, and a jack tied on. That would let you choose a string, control pickup location and height, tuning, completely remove any guitar sound from the output (bks are VERY sensitive to the guitar they're in), then you make a string striking rig - a bar that holds a pick thats sprung such that it can be pulled back past the string and release to strike it once and with the same strength, angle and distance into the string every time, and you line the signal into a spectral analyser via a decent High-Z input (like one of the 4 I'm looking at right now) and you get the power spectra of the frequency response (theres free software you can do this with - I do acoustic spectra analysis, among other things, at work, and found it by accident). You could also hook it up to a multimeter and measure output current/voltage, for reference within the BK range.
No guitar
No player
No speakers
No amp
No cab
No room
No subjective assesment
All variables controlled, standardisable test (the kind of thing I've been trained to do, and am really rather good at, even if I do say so myself).
I need a couple of things to do it (including time!) but its a weekends work - not too onerous.
Would anyone like to see such a thing? (If no ones gonna use it, I wont bother).
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Sounds good to me, although you may have blinded me with science. :wink: