Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Davey on November 21, 2008, 05:19:27 PM
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If you cant play metal in A-440 you shouldnt be allowed to play guitar
no you dont need your guitar in Drop-Z ... just learn to play properly. and no, i dont buy the 'it sounds more brutal' or whatever point you're trying to make
THE END
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It does sound heavier though :P
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It does sound heavier though :P
the $%&# it does
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Well it's pretty obvious it sounds heavier, though it makes stuff easier to play with less string tension which is cheating a bit imo.
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Drop-Z ...
do you pronounce that 'drop zee' or 'drop zed' ?
essentially i agree - you CAN play metal in standard tuning - i certainly prefer it. drop tunings are more humorous though
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Yes, it does.
Its a musical device like anything else, and I for one get a huge kick out of the unearthly savage growl of a guitar strung 12-62 in drop B or A. It pleases my ears immensly. And does sound way heavier.
Plus using downtunings take their own particular kind of skill to sound heavy and musical, but not like youre just hitting low notes all the time for the heaviness fix :P
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Well it's pretty obvious it sounds heavier, though it makes stuff easier to play with less string tension which is cheating a bit imo.
Not with heavier strings :P
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Opeth play in standard E, plenty heavy enough. :D
I dropped all our bands tuning to drop C# cos I find it easier to sing in that key. It does sound nice though, hehe.
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And if it's a drop tuning you only need one finger to play the power chords, isn't that right?
I don't like tuning as a whole, so I tend to have different guitars with different tunings.
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And if it's a drop tuning you only need one finger to play the power chords, isn't that right?
I don't like tuning as a whole, so I tend to have different guitars with different tunings.
That opens up yet more doors.
Drop A:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LNQpLFns-CA
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bq_KJnb7djY
Both damn near impossible in standard. (Hard enough as they are!)
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That just sounds like absolute cr@p though :lol:
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*shrugs* matter of taste. I $%&#ing love nile.
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Well it's pretty obvious it sounds heavier, though it makes stuff easier to play with less string tension which is cheating a bit imo.
Not with heavier strings :P
Well i use 11's in standard tuning, there's only 1 more gauge you can go up to and that's to 12's. That won't be very much tighter, in fact it's probably much easier to bends strings etc. with some 12's in drop b or drop a than it is to do that with 11's in standard tuning.
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I use 10 or 11s, and I like my trem with full springs. Drop A is super fun though. I mostly play in Drop B which covers three of my bands, All Shall Perish, Parkway Drive and Machine Head and also 2 Become 1 Paul Gibert style (I think)
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*shrugs* matter of taste. I $%&#ing love nile.
FVCK YES!
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That just sounds like absolute cr@p though :lol:
SOUNDS LIKE THE DEATH OF 1000 SLAVES - AND THUS AWESOME.
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I have to say, i recently got a Ibanez MTM2 (which is really awesome and i will be changing the truss rod cover so you can't tell its a signature model) and this is tuned to Drop-B stock, and when i picked it up, it felt like standard but tighter... i was expecting slack strings but this is amazingly tight, even harder to bend/play than the 10's i have on a standard tuned guitar!
Also sounds amazing, maybe a bit too low though.
You don't HAVE to drop tune to play metal, but it's an option.
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i would downtune, but i'm too lazy to change the tunings.
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That just sounds like absolute cr@p though :lol:
SOUNDS LIKE THE DEATH OF 1000 SLAVES - AND THUS AWESOME.
Surely the death of 1000 slaves would sound pretty bad?
What strikes me is that this kind of music is meant to sound powerful, but it doesn't, it sounds absolute cr@p!
There's nothing wrong with tuning down, as long as what you play is good!
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If you cant play metal in A-440 you shouldnt be allowed to play guitar
no you dont need your guitar in Drop-Z ... just learn to play properly. and no, i dont buy the 'it sounds more brutal' or whatever point you're trying to make
THE END
I have a 7-string tuned down to drop G#, and another guitar that takes that tuning and slaps a low D# under that. It's all still tuned to A440. :P
But really, who gives a cr@p if someone wants to detune? I agree that you shouldn't have to tune down from standard to be heavy. Plenty of bands do just fine tearing it up in standard. Detuning is just a different kind of sound. It's not "wrong" just because it isn't necessary. You shouldn't have to have botique hand made scatterwound pickups to get good tone, either. ;)
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That just sounds like absolute cr@p though :lol:
SOUNDS LIKE THE DEATH OF 1000 SLAVES - AND THUS AWESOME.
Surely the death of 1000 slaves would sound pretty bad?
What strikes me is that this kind of music is meant to sound powerful, but it doesn't, it sounds absolute cr@p!
There's nothing wrong with tuning down, as long as what you play is good!
Ok, you and tom both, TRY to listen to whats actually going on in there.
When you have some idea, report back.
If you already do, then....oh, $%&# it, there was some sort of rant coming but frankly I couldnt give a flying fuck
Drop B:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MIMW0aHN0ks
Drop F#
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4A_tSyJBsRQ
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If you cant play metal in A-440 you shouldnt be allowed to play guitar
no you dont need your guitar in Drop-Z ... just learn to play properly. and no, i dont buy the 'it sounds more brutal' or whatever point you're trying to make
THE END
I hate to say it on this otherwise friendly forum, but this is a really, really stupid post.
edit: incredibly, unbelievably, peerlessly stupid
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If you cant play metal in A-440 you shouldnt be allowed to play guitar
no you dont need your guitar in Drop-Z ... just learn to play properly. and no, i dont buy the 'it sounds more brutal' or whatever point you're trying to make
THE END
I hate to say it on this otherwise friendly forum, but this is a really, really stupid post.
edit: incredibly, unbelievably, peerlessly stupid
unfortunately, that wasn't too brilliant of a post either. lets try to keep things civil here...
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If you cant play metal in A-440 you shouldnt be allowed to play guitar
no you dont need your guitar in Drop-Z ... just learn to play properly. and no, i dont buy the 'it sounds more brutal' or whatever point you're trying to make
THE END
I hate to say it on this otherwise friendly forum, but this is a really, really stupid post.
edit: incredibly, unbelievably, peerlessly stupid
unfortunately, that wasn't too brilliant of a post either. lets try to keep things civil here...
I'm trying. That was the civil version :lol:
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If you cant play metal in A-440 you shouldnt be allowed to play guitar
no you dont need your guitar in Drop-Z ... just learn to play properly. and no, i dont buy the 'it sounds more brutal' or whatever point you're trying to make
THE END
I hate to say it on this otherwise friendly forum, but this is a really, really stupid post.
edit: incredibly, unbelievably, peerlessly stupid
unfortunately, that wasn't too brilliant of a post either. lets try to keep things civil here...
I'm trying. That was the civil version :lol:
can we see the non-civil version, just for fun?
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If you cant play metal in A-440 you shouldnt be allowed to play guitar
no you dont need your guitar in Drop-Z ... just learn to play properly. and no, i dont buy the 'it sounds more brutal' or whatever point you're trying to make
THE END
I hate to say it on this otherwise friendly forum, but this is a really, really stupid post.
edit: incredibly, unbelievably, peerlessly stupid
I agree. But if someones gonna be an idiot, and it seems davey is set on that with this, then thats what they're gonna do. It doesnt hurt anyone to let him say what he wants without harsh rebuke. Dare I say it, its *just* guitar tuning and totally personal preference that hes mistaken for a podium for daveycentric generalisations, but if you arent uptight about the matter, friendly discussion around the it is entertaining enough, if all involved are capable of it.
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I sort of agree with the OP, I mean, some bands get great chug from standard or Eb tuning, opeth, testament come to mind.
I think your tone can be suited to make things more heavy if your tunings don't.
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While I don't agree that just because I'm fed up with mega down-tuning then everybody else must be too, I think Davey has a point: You can achieve plenty of heaviness with E or Eb tuning.
Over the years I've tried all sort of tunings, C was my "standard" for several years & I went as low as A. But all the different gauges of strings & different setups got a bit of a pain in the arse after a while, so I've settled on Eb as my standard tuning.
I find that once I go lower than D that I'm compromising on speed & precision - either the strings are flapping around all over the shop, or I have to use such a heavy gauge that it becomes tiring to play (OK, a decent setup would solve much of that, but IMO 13-62 is harder work than 10-46 for really fast alternate picking & palm muted riffing no matter how well you set the guitar up).
Davey - it must me a sign of ageing but don't worry, it comes to us all. Welcome to geezer-dom :P
JMHO, YMMV etc...
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Well it's pretty obvious it sounds heavier, though it makes stuff easier to play with less string tension which is cheating a bit imo.
Not with heavier strings :P
Well i use 11's in standard tuning, there's only 1 more gauge you can go up to and that's to 12's. That won't be very much tighter, in fact it's probably much easier to bends strings etc. with some 12's in drop b or drop a than it is to do that with 11's in standard tuning.
Umm... How do you work that one out??? Even before I went custom and got 14-68 (6-string baritone), I was using 13s.
This string tension argument is a strange one, and I don't understand it. I suspect it may be the view of people who don't really know what they're talking about. IMHO of course...
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For some time now I've been fed up with downtuning too. Shure it can be fun but I always feel so bound to play the same old typical downtuned riffs.
The same goes for saturated distortion.
Remember that death metal band that covered Dirty Deeds?
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That nile track was balls! An intro where everyone seems to be playing different songs, cr@ppy tone so I couldn't make anything out and the 'vocals'. Pah.
I don't mind down tuning, and i'm a fan of dropped d- not just for one finger power chords though, can get some interesting chords and drones going on with it.
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The thing is ... every band i get in to it's like this
we're playing in D ... okay, fine, tune my guitar to D and lets play.. right, that's the point of having a band, yes? next week.. we're going down to C# >.< ... WHAT?? why? it's heavier... the $%&# it is.
other band, allright, can we keep this in Eb, IF you dont want (for whatever reason) play in standard? sure, okay. no problem. week later.. say, can we go to D? *sigh* okay, at least we're playing... next time i talk to em, dude says, listen, i droped my guitar to C# the other day and it sounds amazing! WHAAA??? $%&# OFF!
okay.. couple of friends decide to make a band, i compromise and put the tuning into D for the sake of writing material and not being the only one steping out of line. yesterday the guitarist sends me a message over MSN that goes exactly like this: We're tuning to C# now.. literally told him to suck my dick and to $%&# off with the band and that i'm never going below Eb again. drop-D is acceptable and if they dont want to play in that, they should look for another guitarist.
i'm SICK of growly mushy droptuned guitars and the pinch harmonics that sounds like a cat shrieking in slow motion. $%&# that
it's the downtuning for the sake of downtuning. the material doesnt sound any better and on the same strings and same setup, you sound like a total mess. everything is drowned out by the low end
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That nile track was balls! An intro where everyone seems to be playing different songs, cr@ppy tone so I couldn't make anything out and the 'vocals'. Pah.
I don't mind down tuning, and i'm a fan of dropped d- not just for one finger power chords though, can get some interesting chords and drones going on with it.
Look, like it or not, the point was tha that can barely be played in drop tuning, and much of it, like the stacked 4ths and 5ths in the chorus of Papyrus are impossible with normal sized hands in standard, and the rest is way harder still in standard. Its to show that drop tuning is a usefull musical tool. But you knew that already. It seems some people, even here, dont *shrug*.
C standard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTbjy9ppMok&feature=related
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This track is downtuned to $%&#, and it would sound shitee any other way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO7VP34n2Ps
edit - davey, I see what you mean, downtuning for the sake of downtuning is a bit stupid, but some things just wouldnt sound right otherwise. Cowboys From Hell is all in standard though (I think) and is heavy as $%&# :)
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The thing is ... every band i get in to it's like this
we're playing in D ... okay, fine, tune my guitar to D and lets play.. right, that's the point of having a band, yes? next week.. we're going down to C# >.< ... WHAT?? why? it's heavier... the $%&# it is.
other band, allright, can we keep this in Eb, IF you dont want (for whatever reason) play in standard? sure, okay. no problem. week later.. say, can we go to D? *sigh* okay, at least we're playing... next time i talk to em, dude says, listen, i droped my guitar to C# the other day and it sounds amazing! WHAAA??? $%&# OFF!
okay.. couple of friends decide to make a band, i compromise and put the tuning into D for the sake of writing material and not being the only one steping out of line. yesterday the guitarist sends me a message over MSN that goes exactly like this: We're tuning to C# now.. literally told him to suck my dick and to $%&# off with the band and that i'm never going below Eb again. drop-D is acceptable and if they dont want to play in that, they should look for another guitarist.
i'm SICK of growly mushy droptuned guitars and the pinch harmonics that sounds like a cat shrieking in slow motion. $%&# that
it's the downtuning for the sake of downtuning. the material doesnt sound any better and on the same strings and same setup, you sound like a total mess. everything is drowned out by the low end
I don't have a particular opinion on this myself, I view drop tuning as a tool, and anyone who can use their tools properly is welcome to do so as long as I'm not forced to listen to it :)
But I think Davey is making a valid point, the examples he's given are not 'changing your tools to make a job easier' which is Mark's very valid point, it's 'oooo lets see how low we can tune'. Everyone on this forum is interested in good tone, if you're being pressured to compromise your tone on a whim then I think you're entitled to be annoyed.
Davey, get everyone kitted out with Warpigs, they won't need to go below D then :)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x7Ez7yCyA8
Drop B
Both gay sounding any higher than that (well you might get away with drop C, but it wouldnt have the same melancholy about it) and impossible in standard format
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The thing is ... every band i get in to it's like this
we're playing in D ... okay, fine, tune my guitar to D and lets play.. right, that's the point of having a band, yes? next week.. we're going down to C# >.< ... WHAT?? why? it's heavier... the $%&# it is.
other band, allright, can we keep this in Eb, IF you dont want (for whatever reason) play in standard? sure, okay. no problem. week later.. say, can we go to D? *sigh* okay, at least we're playing... next time i talk to em, dude says, listen, i droped my guitar to C# the other day and it sounds amazing! WHAAA??? $%&# OFF!
okay.. couple of friends decide to make a band, i compromise and put the tuning into D for the sake of writing material and not being the only one steping out of line. yesterday the guitarist sends me a message over MSN that goes exactly like this: We're tuning to C# now.. literally told him to suck my dick and to $%&# off with the band and that i'm never going below Eb again. drop-D is acceptable and if they dont want to play in that, they should look for another guitarist.
i'm SICK of growly mushy droptuned guitars and the pinch harmonics that sounds like a cat shrieking in slow motion. $%&# that
it's the downtuning for the sake of downtuning. the material doesnt sound any better and on the same strings and same setup, you sound like a total mess. everything is drowned out by the low end
Seems to me youre just fed up with people changing tuning.
Dont be hatin' the detuning just because you like one tuing and others try others :)
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Isis are awesome :)
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Damn straight they are!
By transit of property, Drop B is therefore awsome :D
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the material doesnt sound any better and on the same strings and same setup, you sound like a total mess. everything is drowned out by the low end
thats it aint it, its not as simple as just tuning lower... for it to work well the guitar needs to be set up for it.
I work with a lot of kids so come across this problem a lot, they think they can just tune it down and that makes them sound more metal, i am fed up of dealing with these farty, flabby things!!... its the same type of people that think going for a highly overwound quadrail humbucker with a output of 56k is going to make them sound more brootal
the right strings on the right guitar (and scale length) can make tuning down really usefull - and usefull for many things other than metal
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvcfvSKP7Vg
B00talz
$%&# knows what tuning.
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Davey, get everyone kitted out with Warpigs, they won't need to go below D then :)
well... if he can scr@p the cash together, the other guitarist (in whichever band. got 2 now) will get my spider jackson (custom MM & VH2) i got a CWP coming in the DK2M LE, so yeah.. once they hear that, they'll probably stick with Eb (hopefully)
and okay.. i'll rephrase my initial post. here goes:
If you cant play metal in A-440, downtuning wont help out either.
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DADGBE or Eb.
If you gotter go lower to sound BRO0TALZ then there's something wrong with one's tone. :P
Just my two pence....
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the material doesnt sound any better and on the same strings and same setup, you sound like a total mess. everything is drowned out by the low end
the right strings on the right guitar (and scale length) can make tuning down really usefull - and usefull for many things other than metal
My Ibanez MTM 2 which is now tuned to C Standard gives me the sweetest Jazz tone that I've ever had... haha :D
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Davey you need some more guitars so you can keep them in those tunings. That would piss me off having to re-tune all the time too. People who change their minds all the time about anything is a pain.
I think its all a case of what tuning fits the track. You have to get your vocalists range within these tunings too.
I agree with what MDV is saying. You can't expect the same affect for a track that was written in B and then play it in Standard.
I have a guitar with 13's on with a warpig and MQ and I love the sounds you can get with it. I got it to play SOAD stuff with really. But if I play Fvcking Hostile on it by Pantera it doesn't sound the same.
So its all subjective and a case for using the right tools for the job. 8)
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i've got two... well, one isnt in working order, cos i took it apart as i'm working on it.
and i havent got the money to finance a guitar from scratch at the moment
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I can't understand the whole anti-downtuning thing - seems it's now the popular camp to be in :roll:
This wouldn't sound right if it wasn't in drop G... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UOC3k9xZO5I
From my perspective, downtunings offer a different tonality than standard that informs the music being made. Like someone said earlier, the DM version of Dirty Deeds (by 6FU) just doesn't work with the downtuning. otoh, Deicide's version of black night rules... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DT9OJtdXxVQ
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Well i play in D standard simply because my vocalist fits better in D standard in E he sounds too forced.
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How about looking at this from another angle...
Classical music uses lots of different instruments that are tuned differently but are all tuned relative to each other in concert pitch. In order to get different sounds and textures from their music the composers used different instruments for certain things like cellos and double basses, timpani for the dramactic heavy stuff like Mars for instance. For the more gayer stuff for want of a different term they would use say piccolos and violins. These are only sweeping generalistions but you can see my point. For music that was played and vocalised like some of the examples here downtuning a guitar and tuning each string in different intervals too makes that guitar something completely new and capable of something well...different! (I counted 7 :lol:)
I mean music would be fvcking boring if we didn't have these bands doing detuned stuff wouldn't it!
I love Meshugga. Nile are a new one on me. It's as brutal as it can get surely! Can it get any more brutal?
The masses that listen to Heart fm and all that wank still struggle with Cream and Hendrix, in a more modern form the Foos. Can you imagine their reaction to this stuff?? :lol:
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I can't understand the whole anti-downtuning thing - seems it's now the popular camp to be in :roll:
This wouldn't sound right if it wasn't in drop G... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UOC3k9xZO5I
From my perspective, downtunings offer a different tonality than standard that informs the music being made. Like someone said earlier, the DM version of Dirty Deeds (by 6FU) just doesn't work with the downtuning. otoh, Deicide's version of black night rules... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DT9OJtdXxVQ
That Purple cover sounds like the musics on 78 and the vocals are on 33 (and a 3rd)
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Davey, I know what you mean. It's almost a competition about who tunes his guitar the lowest to get the heaviest sound. (read pissing contest)
IMO the true heaviness comes from how it's played.
I agree downtuning works for some songs, listen to Sabbath.
Nowadays it's downtuning for the sake of downtuning or compensating for lack of skills.
It's just like too much distortion. it's so easy to hide behind.
It's EMO!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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How about looking at this from another angle...
Classical music uses lots of different instruments that are tuned differently but are all tuned relative to each other in concert pitch. In order to get different sounds and textures from their music the composers used different instruments for certain things like cellos and double basses, timpani for the dramactic heavy stuff like Mars for instance. For the more gayer stuff for want of a different term they would use say piccolos and violins. These are only sweeping generalistions but you can see my point. For music that was played and vocalised like some of the examples here downtuning a guitar and tuning each string in different intervals too makes that guitar something completely new and capable of something well...different! (I counted 7 :lol:)
Good point about classical Johnny
My two gripes with downtuning are :
Usually it restricts the vocalist to sounding like a wounded creature in a horror movie, or maybe they were a cr@p vocalist anyway.
Not always though - check out this clip
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf4uZ9pvZbk (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf4uZ9pvZbk)
or this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjzaN0mNQ0Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjzaN0mNQ0Q)
Most venues PAs cannot handle the sound at al and it comes over sounding like cr@p - good example id the Astoria - no downtuned band ever sounded good there in recent years. I saw Wednesday 13 there the other week and whilst they were quite good fun (reminded me of WASP without the charisma and distinctive vocals) the guitar sounds were somewhat of a mess through the PA. The support act Hanoi Rocks (who I was actually there to see) - sounded much better simply because they were tuned to concert pitch or half tone down.
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Nowadays it's downtuning for the sake of downtuning or compensating for lack of skills.
Actually, I find it more difficult to play the fast articulate stuff in downtunings - or, more specifically, with heavy gauge strings.
It's this argument that I don't get.
We down-tune so that we get the sound we want, simple as that. :)
Roo
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This thread is ace!
Loads of metal-heads tearing chunks out of each other!!!
:lol:
As a pretty much non-metaler (these days anyway), I'm fascinated with the idea of downtuning and extra strings. I'd love a 7/8 string guitar wih chunky strings, strung low - I suspect that there's a whole lot more to do with it than just "chugger-chugger-chugger"...
... not that there's anything wrong with that. Please don't hit me...
Mark.
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In my band we downtune to Eb-does that count?
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Davey did come in with a good point, which I suspect is more the gripe than anything to do with what tuning the guitars are in, that changing tunings is a royal pain in the arse (especially if you use the same guitar in more than one band, too).
We just tune to "Drop A", which is A-E-A-D-F#-B by my definition. Everything we play is in that, the bassist has a 5-string so if I were to use another guitar, we could just as easily play in standard E tuning, but given that we have nothing which benefits from that, what's the point? :)
I don't see the point in changing tunings. Pick one and stick with it! (I guess dropping the bottom string a tone and bringing it back up is okay, but that's as far as I'd go). My guitar is set up to be in a given tuning with a given gauge string. Why on earth would I want to ruin the setup by tuning it differently!? :)
Roo
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This thread is ace!
Loads of metal-heads tearing chunks out of each other!!!
:lol:
As a pretty much non-metaler (these days anyway), I'm fascinated with the idea of downtuning and extra strings. I'd love a 7/8 string guitar wih chunky strings, strung low - I suspect that there's a whole lot more to do with it than just "chugger-chugger-chugger"...
... not that there's anything wrong with that. Please don't hit me...
Mark.
i wonder if somebody's gonna start an officially fed up with extra strings thread?
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i wonder if somebody's gonna start an officially fed up with extra strings thread?
Tempting. :lol:
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The thing is ... every band i get in to it's like this
we're playing in D ... okay, fine, tune my guitar to D and lets play.. right, that's the point of having a band, yes? next week.. we're going down to C# >.< ... WHAT?? why? it's heavier... the $%&# it is.
other band, allright, can we keep this in Eb, IF you dont want (for whatever reason) play in standard? sure, okay. no problem. week later.. say, can we go to D? *sigh* okay, at least we're playing... next time i talk to em, dude says, listen, i droped my guitar to C# the other day and it sounds amazing! WHAAA??? $%&# OFF!
okay.. couple of friends decide to make a band, i compromise and put the tuning into D for the sake of writing material and not being the only one steping out of line. yesterday the guitarist sends me a message over MSN that goes exactly like this: We're tuning to C# now.. literally told him to suck my dick and to $%&# off with the band and that i'm never going below Eb again. drop-D is acceptable and if they dont want to play in that, they should look for another guitarist.
i'm SICK of growly mushy droptuned guitars and the pinch harmonics that sounds like a cat shrieking in slow motion. $%&# that
it's the downtuning for the sake of downtuning. the material doesnt sound any better and on the same strings and same setup, you sound like a total mess. everything is drowned out by the low end
Please, for the love of god, only post stuff like this on Harmony Central from now on.
When I think of modern metal in E standard tuning, I picture power metal man-girls in tight pants shrieking about something from Lord of the Rings. Or, even worse, a cheeseball "true thrash" band like 3 Inches of Blood who want to evoke the spectre of 80s thrash.. which is difficult when they are writing some of the absolute worst songs I've ever heard. There also seems to be no shortage of lame ass 3 Inches ripoff bands in garages all over the western world, who sit up on their high horses talking about how 6 strings in E are all you need while they write some of the most boring derivative cr@p I've ever heard.
Tuning is just a tool in a guitar's arsenal like anything else. If you want to write a whole bunch of songs that sound the same and should have come out 30 years ago in the avalanche of horrible music that was the new wave of British heavy metal, have at it. Just don't make me listen to them. I write in all kinds of tunings to get the sound I want, and if I ever am in E standard, that's because there is an extra string there to give me that B every now and then..
BTW if the low end starts to overpower everything else, you turn the mids up...
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The thing is ... every band i get in to it's like this
we're playing in D ... okay, fine, tune my guitar to D and lets play.. right, that's the point of having a band, yes? next week.. we're going down to C# >.< ... WHAT?? why? it's heavier... the $%&# it is.
other band, allright, can we keep this in Eb, IF you dont want (for whatever reason) play in standard? sure, okay. no problem. week later.. say, can we go to D? *sigh* okay, at least we're playing... next time i talk to em, dude says, listen, i droped my guitar to C# the other day and it sounds amazing! WHAAA??? $%&# OFF!
okay.. couple of friends decide to make a band, i compromise and put the tuning into D for the sake of writing material and not being the only one steping out of line. yesterday the guitarist sends me a message over MSN that goes exactly like this: We're tuning to C# now.. literally told him to suck my dick and to $%&# off with the band and that i'm never going below Eb again. drop-D is acceptable and if they dont want to play in that, they should look for another guitarist.
i'm SICK of growly mushy droptuned guitars and the pinch harmonics that sounds like a cat shrieking in slow motion. $%&# that
it's the downtuning for the sake of downtuning. the material doesnt sound any better and on the same strings and same setup, you sound like a total mess. everything is drowned out by the low end
Please, for the love of god, only post stuff like this on Harmony Central from now on.
When I think of modern metal in E standard tuning, I picture power metal man-girls in tight pants shrieking about something from Lord of the Rings. Or, even worse, a cheeseball "true thrash" band like 3 Inches of Blood who want to evoke the spectre of 80s thrash.. which is difficult when they are writing some of the absolute worst songs I've ever heard. There also seems to be no shortage of lame ass 3 Inches ripoff bands in garages all over the western world, who sit up on their high horses talking about how 6 strings in E are all you need while they write some of the most boring derivative cr@p I've ever heard.
Tuning is just a tool in a guitar's arsenal like anything else. If you want to write a whole bunch of songs that sound the same and should have come out 30 years ago in the avalanche of horrible music that was the new wave of British heavy metal, have at it. Just don't make me listen to them. I write in all kinds of tunings to get the sound I want, and if I ever am in E standard, that's because there is an extra string there to give me that B every now and then..
BTW if the low end starts to overpower everything else, you turn the mids up...
so you criticize him for his opinion on downtuning... and then make the same type of idiotic post? you just made the same type of post that davey did, except you inserted your own opinion. at least he didn't tell people where he's allowed to post his opinions. good job. at least his opinion makes some sense though... do you honestly believe that you can not write a good song in standard tuning?
i completely agree that different tunings are just another tool for a guitarist to use. but if you believe that you can't write a good song in standard tuning, i have to question your skills. i know that's a dumb thing to say, but saying that only 80's hair metal bands can use standard tuning... well that's just ignorant.
its really all a matter of opinion. you can't say a certain tuning is bad, that doesn't make sense.
please, for the love of god, don't post that type of stuff anywhere anymore. there's really no point. express you're opinion, don't tear down someone else's.
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Thanks for the links MDV, lots of bands to check out. The timing and rhythms of these bands are just phenomenal, I'm in total awe. I find the screaming vocals a bit annoying on some but no more annoying than the vocals on Dream Theater... it's the bands like Dragonforce that get up my nose.
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Can you imagine this argument about a piano???
"Don't use any of those notes below that E above middle C. Everything below there is horrible".
:?
Bad guitarists make downtuning sound terrible. Good guitarists make it sound great. Settled.
-
thats true of my piano, its an upright but its not overstrung so the bass strings are shorter than ideal and really do sound like a wet fart... there is a limit to what you can do with a given string length
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The thing is ... every band i get in to it's like this
we're playing in D ... okay, fine, tune my guitar to D and lets play.. right, that's the point of having a band, yes? next week.. we're going down to C# >.< ... WHAT?? why? it's heavier... the $%&# it is.
other band, allright, can we keep this in Eb, IF you dont want (for whatever reason) play in standard? sure, okay. no problem. week later.. say, can we go to D? *sigh* okay, at least we're playing... next time i talk to em, dude says, listen, i droped my guitar to C# the other day and it sounds amazing! WHAAA??? $%&# OFF!
okay.. couple of friends decide to make a band, i compromise and put the tuning into D for the sake of writing material and not being the only one steping out of line. yesterday the guitarist sends me a message over MSN that goes exactly like this: We're tuning to C# now.. literally told him to suck my dick and to $%&# off with the band and that i'm never going below Eb again. drop-D is acceptable and if they dont want to play in that, they should look for another guitarist.
i'm SICK of growly mushy droptuned guitars and the pinch harmonics that sounds like a cat shrieking in slow motion. $%&# that
it's the downtuning for the sake of downtuning. the material doesnt sound any better and on the same strings and same setup, you sound like a total mess. everything is drowned out by the low end
Please, for the love of god, only post stuff like this on Harmony Central from now on.
When I think of modern metal in E standard tuning, I picture power metal man-girls in tight pants shrieking about something from Lord of the Rings. Or, even worse, a cheeseball "true thrash" band like 3 Inches of Blood who want to evoke the spectre of 80s thrash.. which is difficult when they are writing some of the absolute worst songs I've ever heard. There also seems to be no shortage of lame ass 3 Inches ripoff bands in garages all over the western world, who sit up on their high horses talking about how 6 strings in E are all you need while they write some of the most boring derivative cr@p I've ever heard.
Tuning is just a tool in a guitar's arsenal like anything else. If you want to write a whole bunch of songs that sound the same and should have come out 30 years ago in the avalanche of horrible music that was the new wave of British heavy metal, have at it. Just don't make me listen to them. I write in all kinds of tunings to get the sound I want, and if I ever am in E standard, that's because there is an extra string there to give me that B every now and then..
BTW if the low end starts to overpower everything else, you turn the mids up...
so you criticize him for his opinion on downtuning... and then make the same type of idiotic post? you just made the same type of post that davey did, except you inserted your own opinion. at least he didn't tell people where he's allowed to post his opinions. good job. at least his opinion makes some sense though... do you honestly believe that you can not write a good song in standard tuning?
i completely agree that different tunings are just another tool for a guitarist to use. but if you believe that you can't write a good song in standard tuning, i have to question your skills. i know that's a dumb thing to say, but saying that only 80's hair metal bands can use standard tuning... well that's just ignorant.
its really all a matter of opinion. you can't say a certain tuning is bad, that doesn't make sense.
please, for the love of god, don't post that type of stuff anywhere anymore. there's really no point. express you're opinion, don't tear down someone else's.
I was making assumptions since he doesn't seem to understand the point of detuning, or how to get a good tone when doing so.. if he can't write a good song in D standard, how is E standard magically going to make him better? Therefore, I assume he plays cr@p metal like 3IOB. :?
It definitely wasn't the same kind of post.. no mention of dicks or the sucking thereof.
And I said tuning was a tool just like any other - providing a case for standard or Eb. Protest the Hero's new album ruled and its a half step down.
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Thanks for the links MDV, lots of bands to check out. The timing and rhythms of these bands are just phenomenal, I'm in total awe. I find the screaming vocals a bit annoying on some but no more annoying than the vocals on Dream Theater... it's the bands like Dragonforce that get up my nose.
:D
The force is strong with this one!
Johnny and Temps speak the truth. Dowtuning = usefull.
"If you cant do it in E you cant do it" actually means "I have no idea why people detune", which of course doesnt in the least mean that its not a worthwhile thing to do.
Heres a starter for 10: it enhances the guitars ability to behave as a percussive instrument in music, that as Lew observes, is intensly and complexly rhythmic.
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Can you imagine this argument about a piano???
"Don't use any of those notes below that E above middle C. Everything below there is horrible".
:?
Bad guitarists make downtuning sound terrible. Good guitarists make it sound great. Settled.
:lol: Spot on, I can't believe the arguing in this thread. If someone wants to play in F and it makes them happy what more reason do they need? It makes things harder to sound clear but that hardly disregards EQ - I have seen Nile and Meshuggah live and utterly adore both of them, Nile = A, Meshuggah = F and on one of their albums E BUT where these 2 bands inparticular have sorted their sound out, I hear every note, both bands are crystal clear live.
"If you cant do it in E you cant do it" I think that's pretty stupid, so bands like Nile should take away half of what they are because they can't play it in E?
'A'-6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--------------------------------------------
'E'-6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--------------------------------------------
'A'-6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-
So not being able to play that at 250bpm (that's 8ths then 16ths on the end, there's a strange palm mute-release pattern to that I haven't bothered writing in) = a justification that they shouldn't play it? That is a moronic reason I think.
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Wow, there are a lot of misconceptions in this thread.
Tuning low doesn't necessarily make the guitar sound like cr@p. If you're using inappropriate strings or bad equipment or just don't know how to use the equipment properly, then yeah, but it's entirely possible to get a heavily detuned guitar to sound good. I tune to drop Ab and Eb below that (yes, an octave and a half step below standard), and I don't have any problems with it. Meshuggah's tone is massive. Stephen Carpenter tunes lower on every album, and his tone is as clear as it is huge.
Tuning lower isn't necessarily compensation for lack of skill. Yeah, there are far too many kids who just drop their guitars down to C or so and start threading lame breakdowns together. Don't make the mistake of thinking everyone who detunes is like that. Also, if you set up the guitar properly and use the right strings, playing on a detuned guitar shouldn't be any easier or harder than playing on one in standard. On the other side of that, standard tuning doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be playing '80s metal. Yeah, they tend to stay pretty close to standard, but they're not the only ones. Not only do I like tuning low, but I like playing in standard, too. Hell, a lot of the time I play with a capo on a standard tuned guitar. I don't play hair metal.
To reiterate some stuff that has already been said, detuning just offers a different kind of sound. I couldn't imagine some genres sounding right in standard tuning. It's entirely possible to write good and heavy music in standard, and any good musician should be able to, but there's nothing wrong with detuning to achieve a different sound. To borrow from another post, it's like saying that a piano with more than X number of octaves of range is stupid. You can find plenty of examples of whatever generalizations you may want to make, and I'm fairly likely to also dislike those examples, but seeing examples of people who detune for the wrong reasons and can't do it right and assuming that the same is true of everyone who tunes below D is silly.
-
Can you imagine this argument about a piano???
"Don't use any of those notes below that E above middle C. Everything below there is horrible".
:?
Bad guitarists make downtuning sound terrible. Good guitarists make it sound great. Settled.
:lol: Spot on, I can't believe the arguing in this thread. If someone wants to play in F and it makes them happy what more reason do they need? It makes things harder to sound clear but that hardly disregards EQ - I have seen Nile and Meshuggah live and utterly adore both of them, Nile = A, Meshuggah = F and on one of their albums E BUT where these 2 bands inparticular have sorted their sound out, I hear every note, both bands are crystal clear live.
"If you cant do it in E you cant do it" I think that's pretty stupid, so bands like Nile should take away half of what they are because they can't play it in E?
'A'-6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--------------------------------------------
'E'-6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--------------------------------------------
'A'-6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--6--7--3--4--2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-
So not being able to play that at 250bpm (that's 8ths then 16ths on the end, there's a strange palm mute-release pattern to that I haven't bothered writing in) = a justification that they shouldn't play it? That is a moronic reason I think.
Ah, but you can play that in drop D, thats low enough :lol:
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Hell, you could tune the other strings up and play in drop E!
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Meshuggah especially have a very clear tone that doesn't even seem that distorted by modern metal standards.
The clips that Roo posted the other week of his new baritone Wez-V show how good downtuned guitars can sounds while retaining as much clarity as an E-standard tuned guitar.
The whole argument is rediculous - next we'll be saying that JCM800s are the only amps we can use for metal because Slayer played some of the most brutal metal ever recorded with them, therefore everyone else should be able to.
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Tuning up is for pussies.
:D
PS cheers HTH! :)
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Tuning up is for pussies.
:D
PS cheers HTH! :)
Call me a pussy then, well, not uptuning, just adding the 8th string soon mwahaha.
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Call me a pussy then, well, not uptuning, just adding the 8th string soon mwahaha.
Nice. I plan to get an 8-string next year, and when I either get that or a 7-string with a baritone scale, I'm going to tune one of my current 7s to have an extra high string instead of an extra low string. Actually, I already have a 7 set up like that, but it's in C standard with an extra high F, so I'm not sure how much that counts.
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Rusty Cooley said one of his students done that on a baritone 7 and the string kept snapping. That's why my 8 has fanned frets, or is going to once it's made...
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wow, some of you really took this the wrong way 'round and THEN got your panties in a twist. also, some of you cant read.
is downtuning ridiculous? yes, to some extent
would everything sound as good or better if it was tuned D and above? no, i dont think so. no i dont think meshuggah would sound good.would bad horsie sound good in standard? doubt it. i dont think amon amarth could get their huge viking sound going if tuned in E, but does that mean everyone should do it aswell? NO!
i argue the point of downtuning, because it's the big thing in recent years. because everyone does it, you should do it aswell. NOT to write music that would fit the sound you got going with the guitar tuned to A, because that would mean you actually think about the music as a concept and make it work for you, but because it sounds more br00talz! and therefore better. while the riffs stay the same and would sound MUCH more focused and driven in Drop-D
ALSO, while writing the first post, i was furious, because it ment buying new strings and setting up the guitar properly, to have a crisp sound thus not sounding like a wet fart, all the time knowing the others will just downtune to C# using 9's. THAT is what pisses me off and THAT is while i loathe these kids of today thinking they're the next Zakk Wylde, who is biblicly overrated as it is (which is an agruement all by itself)
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No, davey, this is what you said
If you cant play metal in A-440 you shouldnt be allowed to play guitar
no you dont need your guitar in Drop-Z ... just learn to play properly. and no, i dont buy the 'it sounds more brutal' or whatever point you're trying to make
THE END
And it doesnt say anything about you being annoyed that people dont set their guitars up for detuning. Its being annoyed at detuning in general. "If you cant play metal in A-440 you shouldnt be allowed to play guitar" suggests a limited view of what is and isnt metal. You really CANT play some of it, actually, a lot of it, in standard or drop D. it would sound as gay if you did as playing detuned with 10s sounds muddy.
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whatever... i'm done explaining myself
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That's YOUR *judgement* on why people down tune. If it makes them happy there is no reason why they shouldn't.
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FWIW telecasters suck, and the beatles all should have been shot at birth.
I WIN.
:D
Roo
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Hahahaa.
(Though I don't agree what so ever /love Imagine/love while my guitar gently weeps) but that was funny :D
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FWIW telecasters suck, and the beatles all should have been shot at birth.
I WIN.
:D
Roo
:lol:
I believe the matter is settled
/Thread
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I can't be bothered to argue it, but I agree with Davey's principle.
He probably phrased it in a humourous manner as it is easier to laugh at what annoys you than to let it get to you
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I am pleased it is finished, I was about to call the UN.
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Did I miss something?
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Did I miss something?
Six pages of argument. And for once it had nothing to do with Telecasters, at least until the last page.
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Did I miss something?
just me in my usual rant and then half the people here getting their knickers in a twist.
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Did I miss something?
Six pages of argument. And for once it had nothing to do with Telecasters, at least until the last page.
Downtuned telecaster
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/BBMurderdoll/jim.jpg)
OH NOES!!
Run!!!
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Caparison guitars are great.
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Caparison guitars are great.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
*Runs screaming from the room*
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It's like a virtual MDV repelant spray :lol:
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All rap is cr@p and jay z is a C#NT!! :P
Also Dime would piss over O9 even though i haven't heard him play.
Fact.
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i completely agree with davey. ... try not to take what i'm about to say the wrong way... but if you can't write a song in standard tuning, then how good are you really? now i'm not talking about a particular song here. i'm not saying you should be able to write a song in standard and then drop it lower. i mean you should at least be able to write something in standard. you shouldn't say you can't write in standard because it sounds like 80's metal or whatnot. you shouldn't completely throw standard tuning out of your playbook. if you can't write anything in standard, then i can only assume you're using drop tuning to just write basic riffs that sound heavy, but really aren't any good.
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Come on thread over. :D
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I may be missing the point but unless the intervals are different and I don't think they are? Then the actual playing and writing of songs on the guitar is exactly the same, just with different notes. It's a death metal capo!
If we're talking about different intevals like DADGAD or open tunings then fair enough I missed the point and we should be talking about Nick Drake.
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I may be missing the point but unless the intervals are different and I don't think they are? Then the actual playing and writing of songs on the guitar is exactly the same, just with different notes. It's a death metal capo!
If we're talking about different intevals like DADGAD or open tunings then fair enough I missed the point and we should be talking about Nick Drake.
I think there was a point made by MDV about intervals way back in the thread. I was trying to make the point using that wobbly classical analogy, as it therefore becomes a totally different instrument.
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oops only skimmed the thread *blush*
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It is OK, Ban Ki-moon is on his way.
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Come on thread over. :D
Yup, were done here. Nothing to see. Move along now.
So in summary, downtuning is awesome, B is the new E, teles and caparisons suck and classical musics done it all before :D
DE-TUNE-ING!
DE-TUNE-ING!
;)
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Heres something weird I noticed earlier. I've been jamming with this metal band who tune down to drop c (just 1 step down and drop d I think) so I've had my guitar in that. For some reason I just feel "wrong" with it detuned, like I'm not getting the best out of the guitar or something:lol: Not just because it feels too slinky (10s on les paul are a bit too bendy even in E) but theres something I just cant explain :? Anyone else get this?
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I love Meshugga. Nile are a new one on me. It's as brutal as it can get surely! Can it get any more brutal?
I don't know if you can get more brutal, but you can certainly get heavier and certainly get more abrassive.
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I'd say Electric Wizard are approx infinite x heavier than anything I've heard from Nile. Groove > technical ability and speed for sheer heaviniess, imo.
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I'd say Electric Wizard are approx infinite x heavier than anything I've heard from Nile. Groove > technical ability and speed for sheer heaviniess, imo.
Electric Wizard were gonna be my example if one was asked for.
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Heres something weird I noticed earlier. I've been jamming with this metal band who tune down to drop c (just 1 step down and drop d I think) so I've had my guitar in that. For some reason I just feel "wrong" with it detuned, like I'm not getting the best out of the guitar or something:lol: Not just because it feels too slinky (10s on les paul are a bit too bendy even in E) but theres something I just cant explain :? Anyone else get this?
It happens. The response of the guitar changes. But you can change the strings and the setup until happy. Most guitars can take detuning, even shorter scale ones, if you put the patience in to experiment with it. Lower the action and increase the neck relief, or vice versa, change the pickup height with the new strings, and different combinations of setup-setttings. With the right strings and setup theres no reason it cant be done. (*probably*)
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I dont mean the feel of the guitar really, I just feel like I'm not getting as much out of it somehow or something :lol: Maybe because all the stuff I usually play is in standard tuning or Eb? Got some 11s on the way so hopefully it wont feel so saggy when I get them on :P
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fwiw, I used 13Gauge strings when I took at 25.5 scale length instrument down to B standard (with drop A bottom note). This was nearly right. About the same neck tension as 10s in standard tuning (I pre-calculated it, and it wasn't far off when I came to adjust the floyd rose).
Given a proper scale length (muahahaha), there's no reason that you can't use drop A tuning without perfectly responsive strings and a brutal, sharp attack. Hey, it also works well for blues!!!
Roo
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Electric wizard are horrible! Really badly produced stuff!
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I dont mean the feel of the guitar really, I just feel like I'm not getting as much out of it somehow or something :lol: Maybe because all the stuff I usually play is in standard tuning or Eb? Got some 11s on the way so hopefully it wont feel so saggy when I get them on :P
You mean you didnt change the strings? That'd be a start ;) In drop C look at something like 12-56.
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Electric wizard are horrible! Really badly produced stuff!
I agree. Wholeheartedly. Not heavy. Sludgy. IMO, of course.
Nile and the like arent so much about heavy, to me at least, as insane, twisting, hammering and savage.
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Electric wizard are horrible! Really badly produced stuff!
Good doom SHOULD sound old and broken. 8)
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I'm listening to Opeth at the mo, it's really well produced and clever. Know any more modern bands like this for me to check out? Not Threshold/Queensryche etc...
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Electric wizard are horrible! Really badly produced stuff!
Good doom SHOULD sound old and broken. 8)
Oh I see haha 8)
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Electric wizard are horrible! Really badly produced stuff!
I think thats why I like it, just sounds raw and awesome :)
You mean you didnt change the strings? That'd be a start ;) In drop C look at something like 12-56.
Nope, well I'm not really planning on staying in this tuning for long :lol: I've been playing with that band for the past week, but its really not my style. The last two songs they asked me to learn are KSE - Fixation on the Darkness and LOG - Laid to Rest. Just learning the songs is getting boring cos they all sound the same :lol: I swear both of those songs have almost the same intro.
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I'm listening to Opeth at the mo, it's really well produced and clever. Know any more modern bands like this? Not Threshold/Queensryche etc...
opeth are pretty unique. really hard to say. What opeth, specifically? The best youre gonna get is something that sounds sorta like some of opeth - theres no one, that I know of at least, in the same vein on the whole.
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You might want to check out Porcupine Tree, Lew. Not really my thing because of the vocals really but they have some good riffage.
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Electric wizard are horrible! Really badly produced stuff!
I think thats why I like it, just sounds raw and awesome :)
You mean you didnt change the strings? That'd be a start ;) In drop C look at something like 12-56.
Nope, well I'm not really planning on staying in this tuning for long :lol: I've been playing with that band for the past week, but its really not my style. The last two songs they asked me to learn are KSE - Fixation on the Darkness and LOG - Laid to Rest. Just learning the songs is getting boring cos they all sound the same :lol: I swear both of those songs have almost the same intro.
Really? You arent being facitious?
They arent exactly worlds apart, but c'mon, so different!
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You might want to check out Porcupine Tree, Lew. Not really my thing because of the vocals really but they have some good riffage.
Porcupine tree dude, forget his name, often produces opeth, too. Their musics have similarities and disimilarities. I would argue the latter outnumber the former.
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I sometimes think there are some similarities with Akercocke and Opeth.
Although, when I really think about it they sound fuck all alike :lol: Still, death metal with cleaner stuff in there and keyboards on occasion.
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So Doom is the bar-steward child of Sabbath then, got it ;P
Nice one Tom, I'll check em out now.
hmmm I don't know MDV, like I say im literally just getting in to em-myspace-you tube etc... Stand out song is Porcelain heart.
Good heavy riffs with tasty tone and clever song writing and arrangments, not afraid of using strings etc... and good production.
Kinda like if Dream Theater replaced the solos and pompusness with a good singer and better song writing :lol:
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It seems to me that the only thing Opeth share with DM are some of the vocals.
I would say biomechanical and nevermore, but they're still way off.
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It seems to me that the only thing Opeth share with DM are some of the vocals.
I would say biomechanical and nevermore, but they're still way off.
I'm refering more to clever heavy rock in general, Soulfly are another one. Right time to check out Porc Tree
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Katatonia, Pain of Salvation, Anathema?
Maybe Paradise Lost?
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Cheers nfe!
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No worries.
Someone needs to ask for BM recomendations so I can get my specialist subject hat on :lol:
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So Doom is the bar-steward child of Sabbath then, got it ;P
Nice one Tom, I'll check em out now.
hmmm I don't know MDV, like I say im literally just getting in to em-myspace-you tube etc... Stand out song is Porcelain heart.
Good heavy riffs with tasty tone and clever song writing and arrangments, not afraid of using strings etc... and god production.
Kinda like if Dream Theater replaced the solos and pompusness with a good singer and better song writing :lol:
That isnt a bad way of putting it, really. Still way off, but I know what you mean.
Soulfly are another one now....a bit at least.
The cleverest metal - meshuggah.
Runners up, without getting into stuff thats too clever for its own good (I'm looking at YOU, Spastic Inc and Behold the Arctopus!!)
Origin (Echos and antithesis)
Nile - catacombs onward, sort of, but mainly In their Darkened shrines on
Biomechanical
psycroptic
Byzantine (first two albums especially - you might really like these guys, actually)
Isis
Cryptopsy
Gojira (especially the last two - you might also really like these)
That'll do. Its hardly any at all, but quality over quantity. Warning - much of this is pretty brutal, but its the kind of stuff you can listen to intently 20 times and still hear something in it you never heard or noticed before, or have some aspect of the meticulous crafting thats gone into it reveal itself to you.
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Katatonia, Pain of Salvation, Anathema?
Maybe Paradise Lost?
Not bad calls. Even paradise lost. All of them still only share a dimension or two of Opeths repatoire, though.
Quote of the day
"If music were a woman, I'd be desperate to $%&# her"
- Mikael akerfeldt
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That's gonna keep me busy this week :lol: cheers.
nfe Pain of Salvation is hitting the spot like a good cup of alternative, fruity tea!! 8)
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Cryptopsy
Gojira (especially the last two - you might also really like these)
Just Myspaced Gojira :O !!!!!!! That's what I'm talking about!!!!
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Really? You arent being facitious?
They arent exactly worlds apart, but c'mon, so different!
Yes really :P They sound so similar to me, one open D/C chord ringing out, with the riffage on the other guitar, then they both go into some chuggy odd time signature stuff. Very predictable and dull imo :?
edit - yes, Gojira are awesome :) I've just discovered them myself.
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Really? You arent being facitious?
They arent exactly worlds apart, but c'mon, so different!
predicable as the sunrise. But most music is, and I still think they're pretty different. *shrug*
Yes really :P They sound so similar to me, one open D/C chord ringing out, with the riffage on the other guitar, then they both go into some chuggy odd time signature stuff. Very predictable and dull imo :?
edit - yes, Gojira are awesome :) I've just discovered them myself.
They are awesome. The latest album sees some more proggy work off them, and awesome riffing, as usual, but more sophisticated. Less intense as a whole than From Mars, though.
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You might want to check out Porcupine Tree, Lew. Not really my thing because of the vocals really but they have some good riffage.
Porcupine tree dude, forget his name, often produces opeth, too. Their musics have similarities and disimilarities. I would argue the latter outnumber the former.
Steven Wilson. He's a great producer and a great musician. Porcupine Tree and Blackfield rock (as does Opeth, of course).
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Novembre are also a great band in the Opeth-y vein. Check them out.
Yes, Gojira are also fantastic.
but imo, Electric Wizard sounds like orchestrated farting. Just my 2 cents I guess, but I'm not really keen on Sabbath either I guess.
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Btw, to the dude who said he tunes E flat, show me some please :lol:
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Btw, to the dude who said he tunes E flat, show me some please :lol:
Some what? Hendrix, SRV, Testament, Slayer, all play Eb.
And yes, Opeth are superb, listen to Damnation, Deliverance, Watershed and Blackwater Park, my fave albums by them. Agree in that its very hard to find similar music, they're pretty unique, saw them last thursday. Truly awesome band.
And MDV, Behold the Arctopus are absolutely superb. Saw them on Saturday, and I swear to god, I've never seen such good playing live, absolutely tight, didn't miss a single note, and the music was awesome, not just cr@p technical stuff imo, very solid, syncopated, jazzy, funky, unique, I mean, no idea how it would be on CD, but easily one of the best live bands I've EVER seen.
Steven Wilson is pretty cool, his production work is great, and porcupine tree are another very cool band.
And tbh, I wouldn't say Meshuggah was THE cleverest metal, their earlier stuff is very close (DEI era), but I think there's more to bands like SiKth and DEP, simply because of their compositions etc being a little more diverse, that's not to say that Meshuggah aren't one of my fave bands EVER, and I think the "Disciples come join with me" bit in New Millenium Cyanide Christ is the greatest moment in any single piece of metal EVER.
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Btw, to the dude who said he tunes E flat, show me some please :lol:
Some what? Hendrix, SRV, Testament, Slayer, all play Eb.
And yes, Opeth are superb, listen to Damnation, Deliverance, Watershed and Blackwater Park, my fave albums by them. Agree in that its very hard to find similar music, they're pretty unique, saw them last thursday. Truly awesome band.
And MDV, Behold the Arctopus are absolutely superb. Saw them on Saturday, and I swear to god, I've never seen such good playing live, absolutely tight, didn't miss a single note, and the music was awesome, not just cr@p technical stuff imo, very solid, syncopated, jazzy, funky, unique, I mean, no idea how it would be on CD, but easily one of the best live bands I've EVER seen.
Steven Wilson is pretty cool, his production work is great, and porcupine tree are another very cool band.
And tbh, I wouldn't say Meshuggah was THE cleverest metal, their earlier stuff is very close (DEI era), but I think there's more to bands like SiKth and DEP, simply because of their compositions etc being a little more diverse, that's not to say that Meshuggah aren't one of my fave bands EVER, and I think the "Disciples come join with me" bit in New Millenium Cyanide Christ is the greatest moment in any single piece of metal EVER.
I dunno. Sikth and dillinger are considerably less planned. Pin told me (after I asked him how he comes up with his odd, complex riffing - whether its planned or vibe/textural) that its "Just playing and going "Ok, what the hell just happened there?"", then they force-fit drums later. I cant see dillinger being much different - sure its complicated, but its also rather arbitrary.
You take something like new millenium cyanide christ on the other hand, since you bring it up - the main riff is 5 bars of 23/16 then 1 bar of 13/16 on the guitars and the kick, while Harke is playing a slow 4/4 with his hands. 23 and 13 arent divisible by 4 (or anything else for that matter) so the snare and cymbals fall on different beats of the kick and guitars with each repetition and it sounds random, BUT (23 x 5)+13 = 128 16ths, which is 4/4, so the whole section is in fact one 4/4 passage. This is very, very clever planning, and their music is laced with it. Totally intentional, extremely clever, not in the least arbitrary. It may sound as random as anything else on superficial inspection, but it really isnt, and differs from most of your random time change bands in that very complex sections become much simpler over a longer timescale, or when taken as a whole, rather than one pattern at a time. Much, much harder and much, much cleverer than the likes of dillinger.
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You take something like new millenium cyanide christ on the other hand, since you bring it up - the main riff is 5 bars of 23/16 then 1 bar of 13/16 on the guitars and the kick, while Harke is playing a slow 4/4 with his hands. 23 and 13 arent divisible by 4 (or anything else for that matter) so the snare and cymbals fall on different beats of the kick and guitars with each repetition and it sounds random, BUT (23 x 5)+13 = 128 16ths, which is 4/4, so the whole section is in fact one 4/4 passage. This is very, very clever planning, and their music is laced with it. Totally intentional, extremely clever, not in the least arbitrary. It may sound as random as anything else on superficial inspection, but it really isnt, and differs from most of your random time change bands in that very complex sections become much simpler over a longer timescale, or when taken as a whole, rather than one pattern at a time. Much, much harder and much, much cleverer than the likes of dillinger.
Actually, most of Meshuggah's stuff like that is just fairly basic syncopation. I like Meshuggah, and I'm not trying to say that what they do is unclever, but it's not all that complicated when you break it down, though it is a lot more planned out than it might sound at an initial listen.
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Btw, to the dude who said he tunes E flat, show me some please :lol:
Some what? Hendrix, SRV, Testament, Slayer, all play Eb.
And yes, Opeth are superb, listen to Damnation, Deliverance, Watershed and Blackwater Park, my fave albums by them. Agree in that its very hard to find similar music, they're pretty unique, saw them last thursday. Truly awesome band.
And MDV, Behold the Arctopus are absolutely superb. Saw them on Saturday, and I swear to god, I've never seen such good playing live, absolutely tight, didn't miss a single note, and the music was awesome, not just cr@p technical stuff imo, very solid, syncopated, jazzy, funky, unique, I mean, no idea how it would be on CD, but easily one of the best live bands I've EVER seen.
Steven Wilson is pretty cool, his production work is great, and porcupine tree are another very cool band.
And tbh, I wouldn't say Meshuggah was THE cleverest metal, their earlier stuff is very close (DEI era), but I think there's more to bands like SiKth and DEP, simply because of their compositions etc being a little more diverse, that's not to say that Meshuggah aren't one of my fave bands EVER, and I think the "Disciples come join with me" bit in New Millenium Cyanide Christ is the greatest moment in any single piece of metal EVER.
I dunno. Sikth and dillinger are considerably less planned. Pin told me (after I asked him how he comes up with his odd, complex riffing - whether its planned or vibe/textural) that its "Just playing and going "Ok, what the hell just happened there?"", then they force-fit drums later. I cant see dillinger being much different - sure its complicated, but its also rather arbitrary.
You take something like new millenium cyanide christ on the other hand, since you bring it up - the main riff is 5 bars of 23/16 then 1 bar of 13/16 on the guitars and the kick, while Harke is playing a slow 4/4 with his hands. 23 and 13 arent divisible by 4 (or anything else for that matter) so the snare and cymbals fall on different beats of the kick and guitars with each repetition and it sounds random, BUT (23 x 5)+13 = 128 16ths, which is 4/4, so the whole section is in fact one 4/4 passage. This is very, very clever planning, and their music is laced with it. Totally intentional, extremely clever, not in the least arbitrary. It may sound as random as anything else on superficial inspection, but it really isnt, and differs from most of your random time change bands in that very complex sections become much simpler over a longer timescale, or when taken as a whole, rather than one pattern at a time. Much, much harder and much, much cleverer than the likes of dillinger.
Funny you say that, cos I read an interview with Thordendal where he claimed everything he wrote was in 4/4 with just odd syncopation and then everything was somewhat force fitted around it, I mean, SiKths is just as intentional, they try something out, regardless of time signature, if they like it, they keep it, if they don't, they get rid of it. Then you'll allways force fit drums, unless the drummer's writing the riffs, which could well be possible in any of the above bands!
I just think that SiKth/Dillinger have more to them with all their proggy interludes and clean bits etc, more compositionally diverse, whereas Meshuggah is a constant onslaught - a magical, and brilliant onslaught, but one none the less.
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Btw, to the dude who said he tunes E flat, show me some please :lol:
Go to the bands myspace site ( yes I know you are joking !)
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Electric wizard are horrible! Really badly produced stuff!
I agree. Wholeheartedly. Not heavy. Sludgy. IMO, of course.
Nile and the like arent so much about heavy, to me at least, as insane, twisting, hammering and savage.
Hammering and savage is a good description. 8) I kind of only use two words for music like this as brutal or heavy. I had Nile on today in my truck. It's bloody pulverising in the extreme! I can only take it in small doses at the moment. :lol: Anyway I quite like it. That other band Electric wizard, they have a different sound all together. Like drowning in thick mud. I got into meshugga from reading about them here, they remind me of some of the industrial machinery I worked with in an engineering factory years ago. Funny what moods this type of stuff can put your mind in.
Anyway you couldn't play any of that on a banjo regardless of what it was tuned to!
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Funny you say that, cos I read an interview with Thordendal where he claimed everything he wrote was in 4/4 with just odd syncopation and then everything was somewhat force fitted around it, I mean, SiKths is just as intentional, they try something out, regardless of time signature, if they like it, they keep it, if they don't, they get rid of it. Then you'll allways force fit drums, unless the drummer's writing the riffs, which could well be possible in any of the above bands!
I kind of remember him saying that parts are in odd rhythms but end up overall in 4/4.
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Katatonia, Pain of Salvation, Anathema?
Maybe Paradise Lost?
I saw Paradise Lost by accident before they 'made it' back in the 80s down The Royal Standard in Walthamstow.
Anyone remember Lawnmower Deth? :? :lol:
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Btw, to the dude who said he tunes E flat, show me some please :lol:
Go to the bands myspace site ( yes I know you are joking !)
Hahaha, you've all got me wrong. There was a dude in this thread who said he tuned E flat (an octave below standard E)...
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Anyone remember Lawnmower Deth? :? :lol:
Qualcast Mutilator and the boys? I'll never forget their Kids in America cover. :)
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Btw, to the dude who said he tunes E flat, show me some please :lol:
Go to the bands myspace site ( yes I know you are joking !)
Hahaha, you've all got me wrong. There was a dude in this thread who said he tuned E flat (an octave below standard E)...
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well I assumed you were referring to me ( and I don't mind either way) as I was merely trying to lighten the mood as indeed were you.
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Anyone remember Lawnmower Deth? :? :lol:
Qualcast Mutilator and the boys? I'll never forget their Kids in America cover. :)
Hahaha! I need to hear that!!
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There was a dude in this thread who said he tuned E flat (an octave below standard E)...
Surely he meant E flat half a step down from standard?!?!
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There was a dude in this thread who said he tuned E flat (an octave below standard E)...
Surely he meant E flat half a step down from standard?!?!
Since thats what it is: yes.
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NOOOOOOOOOO! I've just been through the whole thread skin reading and I couldn't find it but someone in here posted saying about tuning E flat (An OCTAVE below standard Eb) and they sounded serious from what I can remember.
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NOOOOOOOOOO! I've just been through the whole thread skin reading and I couldn't find it but someone in here posted saying about tuning E flat (An OCTAVE below standard Eb) and they sounded serious from what I can remember.
First of all,
What makes you think that Eb is an ocatave lower than Eb, when Eb is Eb? (obviously Eb2, on a guitar. Or nearly obviously)
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Did you even read my post?!?! :shock: Because the dude said Eb an octave lower than standard Eb!! + found it:
Tuning low doesn't necessarily make the guitar sound like cr@p. If you're using inappropriate strings or bad equipment or just don't know how to use the equipment properly, then yeah, but it's entirely possible to get a heavily detuned guitar to sound good. I tune to drop Ab and Eb below that (yes, an octave and a half step below standard), and I don't have any problems with it. Meshuggah's tone is massive. Stephen Carpenter tunes lower on every album, and his tone is as clear as it is huge.
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1-2-3-4 I declare a flame war!
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which brings me right back to:
some of you people really cant read...
he said EB (an octave lower) ... cos the numerology is a touch more difficult on guitar, as everybody is all over the place with what they mean (which doesnt make them wrong, it's just different) .. but that doesnt mean straight Eb, cos that's just half a step lower from e standard. and if you say E flat = Eb, the same as C sharp = C#
also, stop taking everything so goddamn serious
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Did you even read my post?!?! :shock: Because the dude said Eb an octave lower than standard Eb!! + found it:
Tuning low doesn't necessarily make the guitar sound like cr@p. If you're using inappropriate strings or bad equipment or just don't know how to use the equipment properly, then yeah, but it's entirely possible to get a heavily detuned guitar to sound good. I tune to drop Ab and Eb below that (yes, an octave and a half step below standard), and I don't have any problems with it. Meshuggah's tone is massive. Stephen Carpenter tunes lower on every album, and his tone is as clear as it is huge.
Chill, Sam, or you can forget your sausage sandwhich.
Deep breaths now, count to 10. I glanced over the original post and didnt take it all in. If that bothers you in proportion to the font size you used, I suggest a cup of tea and a nap at least, therapy at most ;)
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which brings me right back to:
some of you people really cant read...
he said EB (an octave lower) ... cos the numerology is a touch more difficult on guitar, as everybody is all over the place with what they mean (which doesnt make them wrong, it's just different) .. but that doesnt mean straight Eb, cos that's just half a step lower from e standard. and if you say E flat = Eb, the same as C sharp = C#
also, stop taking everything so goddamn serious
Is now a good point to mention that E flat is not the same as C sharp? :D
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which brings me right back to:
some of you people really cant read...
he said EB (an octave lower) ... cos the numerology is a touch more difficult on guitar, as everybody is all over the place with what they mean (which doesnt make them wrong, it's just different) .. but that doesnt mean straight Eb, cos that's just half a step lower from e standard. and if you say E flat = Eb, the same as C sharp = C#
also, stop taking everything so goddamn serious
There is a standard notation. With guitar obviously we'd assume Eb, 1 semitone down from normal E, but if he'd said Eb1 (rather than Eb2, which normal eb would be) it would be understandable with far fewer words ;)
Roo - davey went to the trouble to explain something everyone here knows, dont confuse him!
And davey, the word youre looking for rather than numerology, which is something totally different, is nomenclature ;)
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he said EB (an octave lower) ... cos the numerology is a touch more difficult on guitar, as everybody is all over the place with what they mean (which doesnt make them wrong, it's just different) .. but that doesnt mean straight Eb, cos that's just half a step lower from e standard. and if you say E flat = Eb, the same as C sharp = C#
Am I the only one who has no idea what Davey's talking about? :lol: :wink:
Philosoful- I see! I thought you were talking about this post from page 3:
other band, allright, can we keep this in Eb, IF you dont want (for whatever reason) play in standard? sure, okay. no problem. week later.. say, can we go to D? *sigh* okay, at least we're playing... next time i talk to em, dude says, listen, i droped my guitar to C# the other day and it sounds amazing! WHAAA??? $%&# OFF!
My mistake :)
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he said EB (an octave lower) ... cos the numerology is a touch more difficult on guitar, as everybody is all over the place with what they mean (which doesnt make them wrong, it's just different) .. but that doesnt mean straight Eb, cos that's just half a step lower from e standard. and if you say E flat = Eb, the same as C sharp = C#
Am I the only one who has no idea what Davey's talking about? :lol: :wink:
Philosoful- I see! I thought you were talking about this post from page 3:
other band, allright, can we keep this in Eb, IF you dont want (for whatever reason) play in standard? sure, okay. no problem. week later.. say, can we go to D? *sigh* okay, at least we're playing... next time i talk to em, dude says, listen, i droped my guitar to C# the other day and it sounds amazing! WHAAA??? $%&# OFF!
My mistake :)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:on both accounts and Mr MDV, I'm cool but, well, I did repeat myself a few times :lol: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Is now a good point to mention that E flat is not the same as C sharp? :D
hmmm, might be
and yes MDV, that's the word
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That was 11 pages of highly entertaining posts. You guys aren't going to call it quits now are you? :D
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(http://www.hagstrom.org.uk/images/FuBass6/Fu6Bful.jpg)
Like dude! You could tune this down two octaves lower than standard guitar tuning, dude.
That would sound like Br00talz!!!!
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which brings me right back to:
some of you people really cant read...
he said EB (an octave lower) ... cos the numerology is a touch more difficult on guitar, as everybody is all over the place with what they mean (which doesnt make them wrong, it's just different) .. but that doesnt mean straight Eb, cos that's just half a step lower from e standard. and if you say E flat = Eb, the same as C sharp = C#
also, stop taking everything so goddamn serious
lol.
come again?
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I demand clips of an octave and half step de-tuned guitar. What gauge strings do you use?
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Did I miss something?
Six pages of argument. And for once it had nothing to do with Telecasters, at least until the last page.
Downtuned telecaster
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/BBMurderdoll/jim.jpg)
OH NOES!!
Run!!!
Paul Stanley of Kiss fame has really let himself go judging by that picture, jezus!!! :lol:
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Electric wizard are horrible! Really badly produced stuff!
Good doom SHOULD sound old and broken. 8)
^ +1
thats exactly why the first EW album isn't really 'all that' imo, way too much of a Sabbath debut-album ripoff. I love EW's sound since then with the sludgy fuzzed out guitar, bass and indistinct vocals. EW feckin rule, end of!!!
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Katatonia, Pain of Salvation, Anathema?
Maybe Paradise Lost?
I saw Paradise Lost by accident before they 'made it' back in the 80s down The Royal Standard in Walthamstow.
Anyone remember Lawnmower Deth? :? :lol:
ha ha, yeah - I had a split LP when I was at school with Lawnmower Deth and Metal Duck. honourable mentions go to 'Watch Out Grandma (here comes a lawnmower)' and 'March Of The Metal Ducks To The Ponds Of Hell' - great stuff with a sense of it's own stupidity.
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I demand clips of an octave and half step de-tuned guitar. What gauge strings do you use?
But isn't that just Eb? That's only a half step down :lol: *rolls eyes*
Seriously though, I want to see + know too.
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isn't a guitar dropped down an octave just, well,... a bass?
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Katatonia, Pain of Salvation, Anathema?
Maybe Paradise Lost?
I saw Paradise Lost by accident before they 'made it' back in the 80s down The Royal Standard in Walthamstow.
Anyone remember Lawnmower Deth? :? :lol:
ha ha, yeah - I had a split LP when I was at school with Lawnmower Deth and Metal Duck. honourable mentions go to 'Watch Out Grandma (here comes a lawnmower)' and 'March Of The Metal Ducks To The Ponds Of Hell' - great stuff with a sense of it's own stupidity.
I've got the same album. Great art work! They used to sell out the astoria!
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isn't a guitar dropped down an octave just, well,... a bass?
Yeah, Lemmys been doing it for 30 odd years!
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I demand clips of an octave and half step de-tuned guitar. What gauge strings do you use?
But isn't that just Eb? That's only a half step down :lol: *rolls eyes*
Seriously though, I want to see + know too.
:lol:
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Still waiting for a clip 8)
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isn't a guitar dropped down an octave just, well,... a bass?
In technical pitch but a guitars EQ + amp + pickups etc = completley different sound obviously.
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isn't a guitar dropped down an octave just, well,... a bass?
In technical pitch but a guitars EQ + amp + pickups etc = completley different sound obviously.
That's why I posted the pic of the 6-string bass.
A guitar tuned that low probable sounds flabby unless you use actual bass strings. I'm also wondering about intonation problems.
normal guitar speakers aren't designed for those frequencies.
At some point someone will have a (bass)guitar tuned so low you won't be able to hear it.
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At some point someone will have a (bass)guitar tuned so low you won't be able to hear it.
i read an interview years ago with Jah Wobble where he reckoned that he recorded bass parts that were too low frequency to be audible, but their presence in the track was integral to it's sound and feel. i just though "pretentious tw@t!" :)
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At some point someone will have a (bass)guitar tuned so low you won't be able to hear it.
i read an interview years ago with Jah Wobble where he reckoned that he recorded bass parts that were too low frequency to be audible, but their presence in the track was integral to it's sound and feel. i just though "pretentious tw@t!" :)
bandwidth matters. Yes, bandwidth beyond audiable. It affects the envelope of the sound in the audiable range.
Also, you can feel sub-audiable frequencies in your bones, which is a big deal if its loud enough with speakers that can produce it.
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So...no clips?
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isn't a guitar dropped down an octave just, well,... a bass?
In technical pitch but a guitars EQ + amp + pickups etc = completley different sound obviously.
When you start to get into 'bass' territory with a guitar, then you start to hear less of the fundamental note, and more of the harmonics, so you get a different tonality to the same note played on an actual bass.
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Interesting. I guess it's for given reasons Meshuggah use huge strings even though they use a 32" scale I believe + amp modelers/no cabs live.
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No clips then? :lol: