Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: The amazing Phil on October 04, 2005, 10:42:56 AM

Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: The amazing Phil on October 04, 2005, 10:42:56 AM
Forget the rhythm sound that's easy, but 3 minutes and 58 seconds into it his tone changes madly and it's this awesome soaring lead tone that's slightly nasal but really cool... only I don't know how to make my guitar do that sound.

I know he was using a '58 tele, and I know at the end of the cord was a Supro Valco valve amp, but I've no idea what, if anything, was between them.

If anyone has any idea how, please, please TELL ME!!!! :lol:
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: willo on October 04, 2005, 11:13:31 AM
er...what song? :?:
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: The amazing Phil on October 04, 2005, 11:58:50 AM
"You Shook Me", the title decided I'd typed enough apparently.
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: HJM on October 04, 2005, 12:44:26 PM
It'll be curly cord :lol:

hmmmmm :oops:
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: The amazing Phil on October 04, 2005, 01:16:45 PM
Curly chord?? I'd like to pretend I know but I donlt. :oops: What do you mean exactly?
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: HJM on October 04, 2005, 01:21:56 PM
Quote from: The amazing Phil
Curly chord?? I'd like to pretend I know but I donlt. :oops: What do you mean exactly?


What....even I'm old enough to remember those - curly cables like the wire on a telephone handset( I am a muppet and cannot spell...cord not chord...that probably confused you..I will now go and edit so I look less of a fool :oops: )
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: The amazing Phil on October 04, 2005, 02:32:18 PM
Ah squiggly wires! I thought you meant some monstrously hard to fret uber diminished minor 11th chord or something. :lol:
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: HJM on October 04, 2005, 02:58:24 PM
Quote from: The amazing Phil
Ah squiggly wires! I thought you meant some monstrously hard to fret uber diminished minor 11th chord or something. :lol:


Yeah you can only play it if you're double jointed.............. :oops:
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: Bob Johnson on October 04, 2005, 03:12:01 PM
Sorry, very very sorry, big Led Zep fan. Cannot believe it's all down to a bit of wire!
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: chrisola on October 04, 2005, 05:39:33 PM
Curly chords are the secret behind Zeps and Brian Mays sound... its a scientific fact!! :D
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: Bob Johnson on October 04, 2005, 05:50:01 PM
Quote from: chrisola
Curly chords are the secret behind Zeps and Brian Mays sound... its a scientific fact!! :D


Go on then; explain the science! is that what made old telephones sound so distorted then? :lol:
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: Ratrod on October 04, 2005, 05:55:14 PM
Quote from: Bob Johnson
Quote from: chrisola
Curly chords are the secret behind Zeps and Brian Mays sound... its a scientific fact!! :D


Go on then; explain the science! is that what made old telephones sound so distorted then? :lol:


I think it has something to do with the magnetic field it generates.
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: HJM on October 04, 2005, 06:14:04 PM
GUYS GUYS ....I WAS JOKING............. :lol:
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: Bob Johnson on October 04, 2005, 06:15:38 PM
Curly or telephone cables and twisted pairs are used to negate the effects of magnetic fields and the induced voltages that result from them. Maybe it has more to do with what they don't do than what they do do. Try saying that when you're pissed! :lol:

Any boffins out there?
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: HJM on October 04, 2005, 06:17:53 PM
I'm sure there just a curly coax lead, twisted pair does have it's uses...but there's no pair to twist!! The only thing that might happen could be an inductance, like you get when you leave a mains extension coiled up and plug a heater in.... :oops:
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: Bob Johnson on October 04, 2005, 06:40:43 PM
I was totally on the wrong track there. :oops: When some one mentioned telephone cable my mind went back to the old cotton wrapped inter-woven cables that were around "when I were a lad" (assume generic northern accent). They weren't co-ax
As for the other kind of curly cable, sprung co-ax, I've only ever found it to be of use picking up Taxi and police radio signals, you can actually tune it in by moving closer to or further away from your amp. As for it being the secret ingredient in Bryan Mays' sound :wink: I think it's time for all the closet Queen fans to tell us all about the myriad contraptions Bryan uses, the curly cable is not in evidence on the DVD I have of them..
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: rinse_master on October 04, 2005, 08:34:01 PM
Quote from: Bob Johnson
As for the other kind of curly cable, sprung co-ax, I've only ever found it to be of use picking up Taxi and police radio signals, you can actually tune it in by moving closer to or further away from your amp.


That happens on the Jimi Hendrix @ Isle of Wight DVD, in the middle of Machine Gun, I thought it was a sample or something at first, but it is the security radio-ing for backup!!
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: aisuru on October 04, 2005, 11:12:31 PM
there's quite a lot of delay on there. possibly some kind of phasing going on too, perhaps caused by the wet signal from the delay delay?

the vocals after about 5:30 have a reverse-reverb effect applied too. it could be that that's on the quitar in some way, but with a short feedback and out of phase with the dry signal.

it's one theory anyway. it could just be played through some kind of eq or an analogue filter, i dunno   :P
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: The amazing Phil on October 05, 2005, 02:34:21 AM
How does delay in that sense work? How would you set it up and what not?
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: PhilKing on October 05, 2005, 12:52:55 PM
A couple of things sprint to mind here, one is that Jimmy Page's telecaster was a very old 50's one with the original switch settings:

Neck with treble roll off
neck with tone control
Bridge with tone control

Also, Jimmy Page had said that it was the best sounding Tele he ever had (and it got stolen).  

I think the change in tone is just changing the pickup.  The original solo tone I think is the neck with the rolloff.  Then I think he changes to the tone control on the bridge pickup.  I also think he might have a cranked wah or rangemaster in there too.
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: The amazing Phil on October 05, 2005, 02:30:40 PM
As in dallas rangemaster? Any idea where those can be had? I've heard  a lot of cool things aboot them.
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: willo on October 05, 2005, 02:39:12 PM
Quote from: The amazing Phil
As in dallas rangemaster? Any idea where those can be had? I've heard  a lot of cool things aboot them.


they cost loads to buy second hand, but lots of people build reissues of them, e.g.:

http://www.buildyourownclone.com/ranger.html

http://www.retroman-music.com/prod01.htm

The Beano is supposed to be very good; in fact, I'm sure Tim used on in one of his BK demos?
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: The amazing Phil on October 05, 2005, 02:54:42 PM
I'm starting to think it's either tha judging by the sound clips, or a tonebender. It's a shame that ranger kit is discontinued and that there's no link for it's replacement.
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: willo on October 05, 2005, 03:33:48 PM
Quote from: The amazing Phil
I'm starting to think it's either tha judging by the sound clips, or a tonebender. It's a shame that ranger kit is discontinued and that there's no link for it's replacement.


there is; you just have to dig around a bit! :wink:

http://www.buildyourownclone.com/tri.html

all the links are accessible from the homepage:

http://www.buildyourownclone.com/

Keith isnt making pre-built kits at the moment though, so you'll need to be a little handy with a soldering iron!

There are other alternatives too, for instance:

http://www.aramateffects.com/trebleMaster/

Its supposed to be quite a simple circuit, so most manufacturers seem to be making something based, if not improving, upon the rangemaster!
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: aisuru on October 05, 2005, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: The amazing Phil
How does delay in that sense work? How would you set it up and what not?
you mean how does reverse delay work? baiscally, it's a tape delay, but the tape reverses once it reaches a set point instead of looping round. for out of phase, i suppose you'd just swap the + and - terminals round on the mixer's inputs, and provided it's at the same amplitude, the wet signal would cancel out certain parts of the dry signal.

hmmm... *goes to experiment*
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: Johnny Mac on October 05, 2005, 05:28:29 PM
Quote from: The amazing Phil
Ah squiggly wires! I thought you meant some monstrously hard to fret uber diminished minor 11th chord or something. :lol:


I've got two 1980's curl cords in good condition! I still use them!
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: PhilKing on October 05, 2005, 08:42:21 PM
Quote from: aisuru
Quote from: The amazing Phil
How does delay in that sense work? How would you set it up and what not?
you mean how does reverse delay work? baiscally, it's a tape delay, but the tape reverses once it reaches a set point instead of looping round. for out of phase, i suppose you'd just swap the + and - terminals round on the mixer's inputs, and provided it's at the same amplitude, the wet signal would cancel out certain parts of the dry signal.

hmmm... *goes to experiment*


Danelectro used to have a pedal called 'Back Talk' that does a reverse delay - but of course they stopped making it a couple of years ago.
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: R/2e on October 06, 2005, 01:03:33 PM
It's to do with the electrical pulses getting dizzy from going round in circles down the wire which increases the magnetic field effect and causes magnetic inductance distortion. The only other way you can get this sort of distortion is by playing inside the core of a nuclear reactor but that's not good for your health.

And if you believe that, I have Jimmy Page's original Tele which I'll sell you for £1000 (unfortunately someone has put a 'Squier' decal on the headstock and cleaned it up, but I'm sure you won't mind)
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: Ratrod on October 06, 2005, 06:04:06 PM
I have a bowl with ashes that once was Jimi's strat. Any takers? I also have Slash's first BC Rich Mockingbird for sale: $250,000.-. Anyone? :wink:
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: Kilby on October 16, 2005, 09:50:33 PM
The Boss DD-6 does a good reverse delay (with wet signal can be output on the other sterio channel) the pedal I have BTW.

Some EH memory man echo also do a very good reverse delay, and I think the Line 6 delay pedals do a reverse delay.

The Boss slowgear can do reverse / bowing effect.

Personally I love the reverse reverb that Floyd used on vocals and cymbals.
Title: Curly leads? Kind of......
Post by: AxetoGrind on October 26, 2005, 01:36:03 PM
I would guess that the sound your talking about is the Dallas Rangemaster(treble booster),
these were designed to combat the drop off in high freqs. that a very long run of cable would cause, however the players of the day soon found that the gain could be set to way above just compensating for loss of treble resulting in some VERY famous guitar tones, early sabbath, zeppelin and probably loads more,
that would be my best guess.

i am on the very edge of geeking out so i'm going to stop here before i get into the science, i have done a lot of research into those particular tones recently,


S.
Title: Re: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's &
Post by: Tellboy on October 26, 2005, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: The amazing Phil
and it's this awesome soaring lead tone that's slightly nasal but really cool... only I don't know how to make my guitar do that sound.

I know he was using a '58 tele, and I know at the end of the cord was a Supro Valco valve amp, but I've no idea what, if anything, was between them.

If anyone has any idea how, please, please TELL ME!!!! :lol:


I saw this article on another site:
"Guitarists were demanding a new sound from their amplifiers - a sound with more distortion and sustain. After listening to the views of regular customers Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck, Pete Townshend and a host of others the TONEBENDER MK I was designed and a few months later went into commercial production. "  

- so I think it more than likely it was a Tonebender. Apparently it was sold back in the '60s for £12.32!!!

The article continues:
"Plans are afoot for the production of the old die cast TONEBENDER built for Jimmy Page and Jeff Beck . This should be ready by January 1995, will be a strictly limited issue and will carry a certificate of authenticity. In England, it will only be available from the Macari's shop . "

So there should be some around if you can find them!
Title: tonebender reissues
Post by: AxetoGrind on October 26, 2005, 07:04:53 PM
The TB reissues are pretty weak, they look the part,but, the insides are light years away from what was originally intended for the circuit,

PM me if any of you guys need a NOS mk1 TB replica, may be a few available in a week or two, just waiting for the finishing touches,


S.
Title: Trying to get "that" sound on Led Zeppelin's "
Post by: math2014 on October 27, 2005, 08:30:44 AM
I actually have a tonebender clone (Fulltone soulbender) but still i am trying to dial a Page tone (i get very close though). Any recommended amp/pedal settings? I got an LC30II.

BTW do you think that a pair of black dogs could move me even closer?