Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: richardjmorgan on February 11, 2009, 09:58:40 AM
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I am having a spot of bother with my rig misbehaving and making weird noises, and was wondering if anyone could help me out.
Here is a diagram of my setup:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/deathlettersandlovethreats/my_rig-1.jpg)
I have the tuner pedal set up so that it mutes when I step on it (i.e. it is silent while I'm tuning my guitar, at least in theory). However, when I do this, I get a horrible buzzing noise out of my amp. The noise is alleviated somewhat by switching off the compressor, but is still there, albeit a bit quieter.
Now, what I don't understand (possibly because I'm an idiot) is:
1. What is causing this noise – am I doing something idiotic somewhere in the signal chain?
2. Why the noise isn't dealt with by the noise suppressor, since the source of it (seemingly the tuner) would appear to be in the NS-2's loop.
Anyone have any ideas?
EDIT: I changed the image so I've got the name of my chorus pedal right this time.
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You don't seem to have a proper loop set up from what I can see. Shouldn't the cables from the "OUT" and "SND" of the NS-2 be swapped over??? Your effects loop 'send' from the amp is inputting to the front of the amp from what I can see, not back to the 'return'................
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You don't seem to have a proper loop set up from what I can see. Shouldn't the cables from the "OUT" and "SND" of the NS-2 be swapped over??? Your effects loop 'send' from the amp is inputting to the front of the amp from what I can see, not back to the 'return'................
It's entirely possible I have missed something, but as far as I understand it, the signal path as shown in my diagram goes:
Guitar > Noise Suppressor input > NS send > tuner > compressor > amp input > amp effects loop send > Micro Amp > chorus > NS return > NS output > delay > amp effects loop return
Have I completely misunderstood how the loop in the Noise Suppressor works?
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Well I've just spent a while reading the Boss manual for the NS-2, and what a waste of space it is !! I am no nearer understanding how the pedal works than I was at the beginning.
I strongly suspect that it still is the way you have set up your whole rig that is causing your problems.
At no point in the Boss manual does it suggest putting your own amp's pre-amp in the pedals own loop.
Does the pedal apply noise reduction to stuff in it's loop, switchable on/off by it's footswitch ? I'm guessing that is the case.
Can you explain what you are trying to achieve with each effect in your rig ? I don't quite understand why you have two compressors for example.
Sorry I can't be more of a help. Boss should be ashamed of that manual, that's for sure !
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I'm pretty sure you're using the pedal wrongly. I think the send/return of the NS-2 should be used to loop pedals you want to noise suppress. Not loop to the effects loop of your amp.
I think you should set it up like this:
Guitar -> Tuner -> Compressor -> amp input
Effects loop out -> NS-2 "In" -> NS-2 "Send" -> Chorus -> Micro Amp -> NS-2 "Return"
NS-2 "Out" -> Effects loop return
That will noise suppress the Chorus and Micro Amp, which are both in the effects loop of your amp. Is that what you're trying to do? Hardly seems worth the bother as a Chorus isn't noisy anyway?????
Remember you can only supress the noise of pedals, if it exists, not of the amp itself....
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First of all, apologies hamfist; I am a total berk and that blue pedal should be called CE-3 – it's a chorus, not another compressor. I was getting my Boss pedal codes wrong.
Twinfan, cheers for the suggestions. What I was trying to do is treat the amp between the input and the effects send essentially as I would a distortion pedal, and placing it in the signal chain as such. I wasn't aware of any reason I shouldn't be doing this. This seems to have the effect of quieting down noise from the amp, other than the aforementioned problem when I switch on my tuner.
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OK, looks like you need to isolate things one by one. Have you tried the guitar into the TU-2, then into the amp. No other pedals. Does the amp still buzz when you stomp on the tuner ?
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Gotcha Richard ;)
When you step on the Tuner to mute, there is still a signal going:
Guitar -> Delay - -> Effects return
You need the tuner first in line from your guitar by the look of it.....
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Gotcha Richard ;)
When you step on the Tuner to mute, there is still a signal going:
Guitar -> Delay - -> Effects return
You need the tuner first in line from your guitar by the look of it.....
Aha, I think I see what you're getting at, cheers. I will give that a go!
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Let us know. I'm pretty sure it's a simple switching circuit in the NS-2 and that's why you're getting some 'bleed'. I assume the buzzing/crackle happens when you play the guitar to tune it? If you stop playing it doesn't buzz?
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Gotcha Richard ;)
When you step on the Tuner to mute, there is still a signal going:
Guitar -> Delay - -> Effects return
You need the tuner first in line from your guitar by the look of it.....
Aha, clever boy TF !! I think you may be right.
Richard, let us know if his IQ is as high as we think it is.
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Let us know. I'm pretty sure it's a simple switching circuit in the NS-2 and that's why you're getting some 'bleed'. I assume the buzzing/crackle happens when you play the guitar to tune it? If you stop playing it doesn't buzz?
Yep, that's exactly what's happening, so I think you may have cracked it! I will check next time I'm in our rehearsal room and report back.
Thanks for all your help, guys!
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this might already have been said but im going to say what i think anyway,, i have too much of a headache to read all what has been said..
looks like when you are using only the Delay... it is going straight into the FX return... straight into the power section... not at line level... this will casuse some problems... then then other side of the looper.. with the other fx are making a loop from one side of the amp to the other then adding some guitar to that...
id set it up like this..
Guitar -> Tuner -> Micro Amp -> compressor -> Front of amp
FX Loop Send -> Chorus -> Delay -> FX return
i never really got the point of the boss loop pedal, it never seemed to work how i expected it to. I assume it allows you to have a switchable loop... which would only be usefull if you had either an effect like a whammy that sucks tone like mad.. or a string of pedals you want to take in/out with one stomp.
in my opinion you dont have any pedals that drain a massive amount of tone or a series of pedals that would be hard to take out with 2 stomps... so id leave it out for now and see how you get on... unless im missing something
EDIT... seems twinfan has said something similar... some effect placement is personal taste... but the most of what we said is a good guide to start from, then move pedals around from there... but the key is...
Guitar -> Effects -> Amp
amp Loop send -> Effects -> amp Loop Return
its up to you where the effects go... normally id take the rule... things that are designed to alter tone (wah, boosts, compressor etc) go before the amp... and other effects (Chorus, delay, phaser, reverb) go in the loop.... but its not set in stone.
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Gotcha Richard ;)
When you step on the Tuner to mute, there is still a signal going:
Guitar -> Delay - -> Effects return
You need the tuner first in line from your guitar by the look of it.....
Aha, clever boy TF !! I think you may be right.
Richard, let us know if his IQ is as high as we think it is.
Yep, he's a clever boy indeed! Swapped the tuner and the suppressor round and everything is now nice and quiet. Thanks a bunch for your help, TF!
HOWEVER, I have another question. I am on the verge of buying a Peavey 5150, which, from what I understand a) can be quite noisy, making a noise suppressor in the effects loop a good idea and b) has a footswitchable effects loop.
Now, if I were to use a similar setup to the one above (although with the tuner in the right place, obviously), would it completely bollocks things up when I switched the fx loop off? Is there a way around this, i.e. to still be able to use the footswitchable fx loop (for example, to turn on the delay and chorus at the same time) and still have the noise supressor work as it should?
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If you switch the effects loop off with the setup above you'll kill your signal - no output. You're relying on a signal always getting to the return of the effects loop.
It sounds like you need some sort of looper around the chorus/delay. Just to make things a bit more complicated!
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If you switch the effects loop off with the setup above you'll kill your signal - no output. You're relying on a signal always getting to the return of the effects loop.
It sounds like you need some sort of looper around the chorus/delay. Just to make things a bit more complicated!
I was rather hoping a switchable fx loop might be the solution to my problems, but I was worried that might be the answer! The looper thing is, presumably, complicated by the fact that the chorus goes in the loop of the NS, whereas the delay has to go after.
I think what I actually need is a guy offstage pressing all my pedals for me!
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That's by the far the best solution!
The way you're doing things is really odd. If your amp is that noisy then you should get a tech to quieten it down so you don't need the noise supressor over it. Fresh good quality valves, a re-bias and a capacitor change may be all it needs and would really simplify your rig.
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that the chorus goes in the loop of the NS, whereas the delay has to go after.
Richard, why can you not have the delay and chorus set up in a separate true bypass loop, after the NS ?
BTW, if you're looking for great, cheap(ish) loop pedals then go to http://www.redonionsolutions.co.uk/ . Highly recommended !
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What confuses me about this setup is the NS2. In my setup (5150-II, by the way), I have an ICP decimator prorackG which has 2 channels, I think this is the source of my confusion here, because the Boss pedal my be different?.
In my case, the chain is:
Guitar - decimator channel1 - amp
Effects send (amp) - decimator channel2 - Effects return (amp)
Coupled with this, the way you've drawn the diagram has the following route:
Guitar - NS2 - Delay - Effects return
Is this an error on your diagram?
If the Boss is NOT a 2-channel noise reduction system (I don't believe it is?), then I guess it acts as a parallel switcher, and can be put in the effects loop as discussed above (ie not before the main input of the amp). If it is a 2-channel system like the Decimator, it just complicates things a bit! :)
Roo
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As far as I understand it, ignoring the other pedals, the way things are linked up as in my diagram are:
Guitar > NS input > NS send > Amp input (i.e. preamp is in the NS loop) > amp fx loop send > NS return > NS output > amp fx loop return
The other pedals simply go in the NS loop, either before or after the preamp (i.e. going into the front or in the fx loop) and, in the case of the Delay, after the NS.
This seems to me to theoretically make sense to me, and, practically speaking, does a pretty good job of eliminating any noisiness (other than the original issue with where I was putting the tuner), but by all means take me to task if I've bollocksed it up.
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I had a JCM900 - albeit the dual master volume 2100, and the noise was never that much of a concern. When at stage volumes its normal to have to turn volume down, have you tried it without the NS?
Or even tried just putting the NS without the loop function before the preamp, or after the preamp, but not both. If you see what I mean.
Also while we are on the topic, the loop on the 900 is parallel? how much do you mix in?
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As far as I understand it, ignoring the other pedals, the way things are linked up as in my diagram are:
Guitar > NS input > NS send > Amp input (i.e. preamp is in the NS loop) > amp fx loop send > NS return > NS output > amp fx loop return
The other pedals simply go in the NS loop, either before or after the preamp (i.e. going into the front or in the fx loop) and, in the case of the Delay, after the NS.
This seems to me to theoretically make sense to me, and, practically speaking, does a pretty good job of eliminating any noisiness (other than the original issue with where I was putting the tuner), but by all means take me to task if I've bollocksed it up.
It's probably me just not knowing how the NS pedal works, but to my simple mind, the logical signal path through the pedal would be NS IN ---> NS Out and NS Send ---> NS Return where one of those is before the preamp (the IN-OUT) and the Send-Return is in the effects loop. This is probably wrong, because I'm used to the 2-channel noise reduction system of the decimator, so feel free to completely disregard everything I say (except about telecasters and the Beatles, best heed those words well ;))
Roo
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i have an NS-2 but i dont use it this way. I've heard of the idea though and ive tried it myself with some pedals run on mains and a 5150. I couldnt get my head around how it was ever meant to work.
I think the send-return is just a loop, from my experience it doesnt seem to do much. maybe im wrong. its a while since i tried it. the In-Out is the gate. I tried using the In-Out channel in the fx loop on my 5150, which did cut the preamp noise, but you had to set the threshold to a point where it just coloured the sound so badly it made the amp sound terrible.
If i use an NS-2 now i just use it as the last pedal in my chain to cut the input to the amp, which reduces the potential for horrible feedback but doesnt cut noise between the preamp and power amp stage.
i think a proper 2 channel decimator probably works differently and better.
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i have an NS-2 but i dont use it this way. I've heard of the idea though and ive tried it myself with some pedals run on mains and a 5150. I couldnt get my head around how it was ever meant to work.
I think the send-return is just a loop, from my experience it doesnt seem to do much. maybe im wrong. its a while since i tried it. the In-Out is the gate. I tried using the In-Out channel in the fx loop on my 5150, which did cut the preamp noise, but you had to set the threshold to a point where it just coloured the sound so badly it made the amp sound terrible.
If i use an NS-2 now i just use it as the last pedal in my chain to cut the input to the amp, which reduces the potential for horrible feedback but doesnt cut noise between the preamp and power amp stage.
i think a proper 2 channel decimator probably works differently and better.
Indeed, the Decimator is excellent! It takes your preamp signal (which it also performs noise reduction on, quite transparently), and uses that signal to intelligently cut the noise in Channel 2 (ie leaves the guitar-derived signals mostly alone, but kills preamp noise really effectively). I'd recommend this to anyone using a high gain monster like a 5150, which can be quite noisy!
Roo
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i have an NS-2 but i dont use it this way. I've heard of the idea though and ive tried it myself with some pedals run on mains and a 5150. I couldnt get my head around how it was ever meant to work.
I think the send-return is just a loop, from my experience it doesnt seem to do much. maybe im wrong. its a while since i tried it. the In-Out is the gate. I tried using the In-Out channel in the fx loop on my 5150, which did cut the preamp noise, but you had to set the threshold to a point where it just coloured the sound so badly it made the amp sound terrible.
If i use an NS-2 now i just use it as the last pedal in my chain to cut the input to the amp, which reduces the potential for horrible feedback but doesnt cut noise between the preamp and power amp stage.
i think a proper 2 channel decimator probably works differently and better.
Indeed, the Decimator is excellent! It takes your preamp signal (which it also performs noise reduction on, quite transparently), and uses that signal to intelligently cut the noise in Channel 2 (ie leaves the guitar-derived signals mostly alone, but kills preamp noise really effectively). I'd recommend this to anyone using a high gain monster like a 5150, which can be quite noisy!
Roo
i expected the NS-2 to work in a similar way. take a kind of value of the guitar input and then do something clever to work out what the added noise to that signal was and then cancel it. didnt really work that way.