Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Ian Price on March 05, 2009, 09:27:59 AM
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Just looking around the V&R website at some of their old strats. I do think that vintage strats are pretty overpriced - this one seemed a bit too much really £13950.00 with modifications. I really don't understand how they can call the switches 'micro' as they appear to stick out further than the volume and tone pots!
http://www.vintageandrareguitars.com/web/our-catalogue/Fender/Electric-Guitars/item/3896
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Actually that's probably not too much over the money.
I straight custom Strat from the early '60s would be around £25k, obviously depending on colour and condition.
It would not be too hard to find the correct parts for this instrument to get it right, so even though it looks bad the switches aren't a major issue as it could reversed.
Many of the guitars on V&R are consignments, so the price on the wall is often determined by the seller, who wants a certain amount of money back.
Regardless, anything is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it....
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Hmmm... year I was born, right colour, hmm... (I agree about those switches!)
But it JUST AIN'T WORTH THAT MUCH DOUGH TO ME...
I'm not even sure I'd spring the £950 part for it (knowing I can get a real nice player for less), but let's say I would, that's £13,000 for... what?
To me the "what?" would be: Some strange, undefinable thing about owning a"historical" instrument, and for "bragging rights", and, that's about it... £13K for that?!! It's not what I want to spend my money on :(
EDIT: I know others feel completely different about this - the above is my personal thing. I'm not paying that money for that little return, and I don't feel cut up about it that others will and that's what drives the prices up there...
They are cute to look at though! :lol:
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I've not played a good vintage guitar, so it's hard for me to give a justified opion. But from what I've read in a lot of places, the quality of guitars today (in particular the Fender Custom Shop etc) are as good as those vintage examples. Over the years we've worked out what made the old ones great and can replicate it to a certain degree. If you're a player, a new guitar is the best option from a tone vs cost standpoint.
If you're a collector, or fall for a particular old guitar for some reason (birth year, celebrity owned etc) then all bets are off and it's worth what someone will pay for it. Which may be a HELL of a lot of money ('59 bursts....)
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It's that old vintage vs new debate cropping up again. I'm sill not sure about my old tele - even less so considering it probably wasn't made in the year I was born now I have done some research! I could probably sell it, buy a nice custom shop strat relic (that I have played and like a lot) and have enough change to get a decent second hand tele!
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I agree, those are the biggest (and most stupidly placed) "micro" switches I've ever seen! I don't like the way they've "repaired" the cracked scratchplate with two extra screws, either.
I do understand the appeal of owning a guitar from your birth year - I had a '64 SG Special for a while. It sounded great, felt great, but was really tough to play for some reason... but because it was vintage I felt uncomfortable about modifying it like I normally would (I did change the tuners for some Kluson copies because the old ones were falling apart and almost unuseable). I sold it after a few years.
Having said that, I think there is some truth to the "vintage guitars sound better" theory - whether they had better timber, or whether it's because the wood's dried out over the years. My '65 Melody Maker (just a year younger than me) has an incredible acoustic tone.
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Vintage guitars are mainly nothing to do with how they play, it's about having something rare and collectable that is a piece of history rather than one of 10,000 custom shop models.
You might not think it was worth 13K but when the buyer sells it in 3 years for 18K it will look pretty good value.
And it's certainly better value than something by Tracy Emin or Damien Hirst....
Can't defend the ' micro toggles' though
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There's a cheaper one there that's been well $%&#ed around with. Look for the one with Fender logo that's been dicked around with. It's still up in the £6K region though.
I'm not one of these collectors that has to have the clean, pristine examples, as I prefer guitars with a bit of character. Something shiny and nice I would be shite scared of playing and dinging, so I like the beaten up, non-standard, used, players guitars. So these modded guitars appeal more to me than the museum quality ones they also have listed on the site. The relics appeal to me for these reasons.
However I still would like them as they do seem to have the mojo! I suspect that some of the guitars they are producing these days may well be regarded in the same manner in years to come.
It's a shame that a lot of these instruments are now being treated as investments as opposed to instruments that need to be loved and played regularly. But the same applies for classic cars, I'd love a Ferrari 250 GTO, but hey ho.
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The desirability of older guitars really started in the late 60s/70s when it became apparent that the older guitars were better built and sounded better than the new guitars. (Or in the case of the Les Paul went out of production).
Obviously now there are collectors/ investors in the market which have pushed prices up.
Regardless, I've played ALOT of vintage and new guitars, so am able to give an opinion based on a significant sample size.
Clearly, not all vintage guitars sound/ or play great, and there are some fantastic new guitars being made. However, in my opinion, the very best vintage guitars still sound better than their modern equivalents.
Some modern Teles sound really good. However, I've yet to play a modern Strat (Custom shop, Nash, Maguire etc) that sounds give a really authentic vintage sound, and as for Gibson-style guitars there really is no contest comparing modern guitars with there vintage equivalents.
Vintage guitars don't have to expensive though. At the moment my main guitar is a 1950s ES-225T, which cost me under a grand. OK, it's a slightly quirky guitar, but the build quality is amazing, and it sounds and plays great, and is actually much cheaper than a modern Gibson semi.
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and as for Gibson-style guitars there really is no contest comparing modern guitars with there vintage equivalents.
Completely agree. I've never had the opportunity to play many vintage Fenders, a handful just, but I have a friend with a substantial 50's Gibson collection. And whilst there's a couple that aren't as good as a couple others, they're all flat out brilliant. They don;t all play like the finest modern instrument, but jesus doi they sound fantastic. It is worth saying though that they do vary rather a bit, so I'm entirely open to the idea that there will be examples that arent nearly so great. Even his two '59 standards are quite different, albiet both great.
Got to mind , aside from anything else, the amount of fantastic timbre going about was amazing at that time. People were using brilliant cuts of Brazilian Rosewood for the fingerboards of throwaway begginers instruments, never mind the calibre of stuff they were using on "flagship" models.
And there's those decades of aging to consider. There's a reason classical players spend a colossal amount of money on old instruments, and it isn't the one-upmanship-world that the vintage guitar collecter often lives in.
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I've not played a good vintage guitar, so it's hard for me to give a justified opion. But from what I've read in a lot of places, the quality of guitars today (in particular the Fender Custom Shop etc) are as good as those vintage examples.
I've played amazing vintage guitars, and shocking ones.
In particular one counterexample to your statement is a custom shop gibson korina V A-Bed against the 1975 V I posted about a few weeks ago. no contest - the 75 beat the custom shop in every area. i'm sure there will be reverse examples though
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i like it a lot. The switches and extra screws are annoying, but lets be honest... i bet a lot of us here have done worse to our own gear over the years and this guitar wasnt always the highly sought after thing it is now.
the vintage vs new thing is difficult to quantify... all else being equal there still always seems to be some extra mojo that comes with age, and it is not just psychological
dont forget, although they did have more fantastic timber in the good old days we still have fantastic timber available now - just less of it. carefull material selection by the builder should get past that as an issue. obvioulsy us small builders are better able to do that than a large factory is
wood definately changes structure as it ages. you can see it with acoustics and classicals as the tops eventually start to seem translucent or thinner, they actually become more brittle as well. this process is obviously slower with 1 3/4"+ of wood sealed with a lacquer finish but there is no denying it happens. do i beleive it explains the often reported better tone of vintage instruments... hell no! give it a few hundred years then maybe
wood settles into being guitars.. this much is true. again referring to an acoustic guitar you can clearly hear it change over the first few months of playing as it gets used to being a guitar and everything settles in. some builders help this process along by injecting sound
alnico magnets also age but again very slow process and i cant see it being an issue without a knock to discharge them
so yeah... mojo!!!
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wood settles into being guitars.. this much is true. again referring to an acoustic guitar you can clearly hear it change over the first few months of playing as it gets used to being a guitar and everything settles in. some builders help this process along by injecting sound
Is that a trade secret you're giving away there Wez? I'll have a pint.
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wood settles into being guitars.. this much is true. again referring to an acoustic guitar you can clearly hear it change over the first few months of playing as it gets used to being a guitar and everything settles in. some builders help this process along by injecting sound
Is that a trade secret you're giving away there Wez? I'll have a pint.
Wez - are you referring to the assaulting a guitar with loads of frequencies for a long time process?
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basically - not something i have really done much of yet but i know a man who has
its essentially the same as leaving your acoustic in front of a speaker on your stereo to break it in quicker.
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i like it a lot. The switches and extra screws are annoying, but lets be honest... i bet a lot of us here have done worse to our own gear over the years and this guitar wasnt always the highly sought after thing it is now.
the vintage vs new thing is difficult to quantify... all else being equal there still always seems to be some extra mojo that comes with age, and it is not just psychological
dont forget, although they did have more fantastic timber in the good old days we still have fantastic timber available now - just less of it. carefull material selection by the builder should get past that as an issue. obvioulsy us small builders are better able to do that than a large factory is
wood definately changes structure as it ages. you can see it with acoustics and classicals as the tops eventually start to seem translucent or thinner, they actually become more brittle as well. this process is obviously slower with 1 3/4"+ of wood sealed with a lacquer finish but there is no denying it happens. do i beleive it explains the often reported better tone of vintage instruments... hell no! give it a few hundred years then maybe
wood settles into being guitars.. this much is true. again referring to an acoustic guitar you can clearly hear it change over the first few months of playing as it gets used to being a guitar and everything settles in. some builders help this process along by injecting sound
alnico magnets also age but again very slow process and i cant see it being an issue without a knock to discharge them
so yeah... mojo!!!
This is what I don't get with vintage Fenders though. They were made by unskilled labour out of any old wood that was available. I can see it with vintage Gibsons however, as they were made by skilled luthiers out of woods that are now virtually extinct.
I'm sure much of it is snake oil however, and the market is driven by collectors not players, so it's kinda like any other antique.
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I have played old Fenders both good and bad. I think there is no doubt that they can be a good investment but I like my guitars to earn their keep and I cannot imagine taking a guitar that had cost me that much to the Lampshade and Salad Bowl for a gig.
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As an owner of 3 vintage strats, I should be happy to see the price going up, but to tell you the truth they are over the top now (Les Pauls are something else because the production numbers of sunbursts made between 58 and 60 is less than 1000). If I was thinking of getting one now, I would buy a Bravewood with a BK strat set, as they have the feel down perfectly and with BK's have the sound too. If you want a real Fender, buy an Eric Johnson, they are the closest thing Fender is making without going over the top. I also should add that I was able to buy in the golden age of the 80's and 90's and all 3 of mine added together (57, 61 and 63), cost about a quarter of the price of that one!
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I've played a vintage 59 Strat. Well played in, completely original and had a good set up. To be honest, it sounded great and fat. But the playability wasn't the best. The resonance wasn't great either.
Now this may have just been one example of a not so great vintage strat. But, the Eric Johnson Signature, to me is a better guitar.
To me, there isn't any mystical thing about a vintage strat. You're paying for the age and the 'mojo'
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i dont want anyone thinking i meant 'mojo' as a negative or marketing term. mojo to me is that undefinable factor that makes something special... some have it and i would pay for it if i had the money... others just get labelled as having it because others from the same year obviously have it.
MOJO is nothing to do with value but its the fact that some had mojo that makes everybody want ones from the same years. although i will say a crazed nitro lacquer finish and a certain amount of twisting on a smoke tainted celluloid pickguard all account as being mojo for me - but that needs to be backed up by the kind of mojo i associate with good tone