Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Madiac on March 10, 2009, 07:17:17 PM

Title: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Madiac on March 10, 2009, 07:17:17 PM: Ill start by saying that i love to use alot of expression with the lefthand (wide bends, vibratos and whatnot), ALOT of them are included in my playing, very iommi/blues influenced. Ive considered a floyd on my next guitar, but i suposse this might be wrong? I heard you bend the whole trem and strings fall out of tune etc. Is this true with all trems? or only Floyd style, the ones you can do divebombs and really strong pulls? Is a fixed bridge ultimate for people like me?
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: AndyR on March 10, 2009, 07:40:42 PM: I think it happens to all trems (unless they're lockable?).

Bending one string will flatten the others while you're bending it. But this will only be an issue if you want to play the other strings while bending one...

For example, if you whack the bass E, leave it ringing, and then bend a D up to E elsewhere - that bass E goes flat.

I quite like trems (for gentle Hank Marvin type stuff :lol:) but I just can't use a floating bridge because I do multi-bends, country/blues type stuff...

The only way you'll know is if you give it a go - see if you can try a guitar with a trem on, try to ignore the trem and play your usual style and see how you get on... :D
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Madiac on March 10, 2009, 07:48:25 PM: Hm, well, i really could live without one, i mean, if it is a compromise for left hand expression, even in the least, i think ill stick to fixed bridges^^
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: dave_mc on March 10, 2009, 07:49:25 PM: yeah, as andy says, if it's a floating trem, bending is going to knock the other strings sharp. Can kind of counteract it with more springs, but then that affects how the trem feels.

you can learn to overcome the problem with practice... i play a lot of lead and use trems too. i also use fixed bridge guitars, though, and they are a little easier for double-stop bends etc.

up to you, really. i mean, it only really affects things if you bend on one string and have to hit a note on another string before you've released the bend.
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Madiac on March 10, 2009, 07:58:54 PM: Quote from: dave_mc on March 10, 2009, 07:49:25 PM
yeah, as andy says, if it's a floating trem, bending is going to knock the other strings sharp. Can kind of counteract it with more springs, but then that affects how the trem feels.

you can learn to overcome the problem with practice... i play a lot of lead and use trems too. i also use fixed bridge guitars, though, and they are a little easier for double-stop bends etc.

up to you, really. i mean, it only really affects things if you bend on one string and have to hit a note on another string before you've released the bend.

Yeah, i do all kinds of bends and stuff, as i said, i love left hand expression, so i might be better of. Maybe im better of then, i dont really find use for a standard trem that can do the lighter stuff, since i do that stuff with the lefthand.
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Twinfan on March 10, 2009, 08:38:49 PM: I'm a similar player to you. I play loads of double stops, lots of bends and vibrato, very Chuck Berry/Angus Young influenced. I'm also very heavy handed when I play, especially live. I really dig in and hit the strings. My right hand is all over the place like Pete Townsend, and my left hand is always doing most of the work.

I ditched using a trem live just for a couple of tracks, and now I'm sticking to fixed bridges. I didn't want to adjust my style and lose what made my playing 'me'.

Sounds like you need to buy a cheap vibrato guitar (used Squier Strat?) and see how you get on with it...
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Matt77 on March 10, 2009, 08:50:44 PM: Kahler trem systems are a possible avenue to explore as the other strings don't move as much when you bend another
Wez brought a Kahler equiped guitar with him to the meet in Manchester.
Perhaps he can give an opinion / bit more info ?
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: dave_mc on March 10, 2009, 10:27:43 PM: i should have added, i play lead all the time- more than rhythm. it doesn't bother satch, vai etc. either. then again, there are plenty of lead players who don't like trems. i don't think it's a question of whether you do bends or not, it's a question (as twinfan said) of preference. :)
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Philly Q on March 10, 2009, 11:01:43 PM: Quote from: Matt77 on March 10, 2009, 08:50:44 PM
Kahler trem systems are a possible avenue to explore as the other strings don't move as much when you bend another
Wez brought a Kahler equiped guitar with him to the meet in Manchester.
Perhaps he can give an opinion / bit more info ?

I'm not sure, I haven't used a Kahler for a long time but I think the bar used to dip when I bent the strings. It is possible to get Kahler models with a little locking switch, but it's not something to flick on and off mid-song, of course.

You can set up a Fender trem (or even a Floyd) with extra spring tension so it sits flat on the body and doesn't move when you bend strings. But it means you have to be a bit more heavy-handed with the bar when you want to use it.

And you can get gadgets like the Tremol-No and Tremsetter which let you lock the trem and/or reduce the going-out-of-tune problem. They do change the feel of the trem though (well, the Tremsetter does for sure).
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Pete24v on March 10, 2009, 11:01:51 PM: a device like a tremstetter or tremol-no may give you the best of both worlds...
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Will on March 10, 2009, 11:05:58 PM: The arm on my Kahler doesn't bend down when I bend. 10-46 on 24.75" scale length FWIW
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Philly Q on March 10, 2009, 11:09:31 PM: Quote from: Will on March 10, 2009, 11:05:58 PM
The arm on my Kahler doesn't bend down when I bend. 10-46 on 24.75" scale length FWIW

Same strings and scale length as me. Maybe it's something to do with the setup - I know you have the stud mount version, mine was a flatmount with the saddles up really high to get the right string height.

Or maybe they've refined something about the design since the '80s. :? :lol:
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Will on March 10, 2009, 11:22:58 PM: Come to think of it, when the flatmount was on my LP, the arm did bend with it. Interesting there.
Both of the Kahler's I have used have been 80s models, Wez now has the Flyer flatmount (I think it went on one of his earlier Ravelle inspired shapes)

The rollers are also very high on the studmount, and the bridge is angled backwards, increasing the effect of this too.

I would advise to go out and try a well set up Kahler somewhere. Not going to be many about though
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Copperhead on March 11, 2009, 02:12:54 AM: If you install a Floyd to be dive-only, you set the springs heavy enough that the bridge does not move when bending. Another benefit is you can use a D-Tuna.
Free floating trems will hamper your vibrato and heavy bends, unless you get in the habit of pulling up on the trem as you bend, ala Jeff Beck.
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Zaned on March 11, 2009, 07:36:51 AM: I have no problems with finger vibrato, with a vintage style trem bridge set to float. It does drop the pitch of other strings when you bend one. You can compensate for it a bit, but of course it's a compromise..as is also a trem bridge that has been setup for dive-only action. With that, you'll lose the bar vibrato. I've tried both. You'll probably lose some tuning stability (with trem use), if you set a vintage style bridge flush to the body.

I believe Steve Vai uses or at least HAS used a device like tremsetter. With that, the guitar doesn't drop pitch while bending strings (I don't know HOW far you can bend before it releases), but naturally, it'll change the feel of the trem. A natural sounding bar vibrato is probably a bit trickier, I haven't tried one to be honest.

And when playing with a fixed bridge equipped guitar, I don't have to worry about those kinds of things. Not the good or the bad :D It's all about choosing the most appealing compromise. And owning different kinds of guitars 8)

-Zaned
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Andrew W on March 11, 2009, 09:37:28 AM: Quote from: Philly Q on March 10, 2009, 11:01:43 PM
You can set up a Fender trem (or even a Floyd) with extra spring tension so it sits flat on the body and doesn't move when you bend strings. But it means you have to be a bit more heavy-handed with the bar when you want to use it.

This is what Mr Van Halen does I believe.

I really like hitting big open string drone notes and bending notes on another string against that so this has always been an issue for me. I have two guitars, a strat and a Charvel Eddie VH super strat with a Floyd and D-Tuna. The trem lies flat against the body on both guitars. In the case of the EVH, that's how it came set up from Charvel. It only has two springs and I don't find it offers uncomfortable amounts of resistance when I dive-bomb it so that's a possibility perhaps? This is what it looks like:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3404/3345746575_4cf98bb276_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_atrocity/3345746575/)

My other guitar, the strat, is also set up with the trem flat and on that I did add a couple of springs to the trem block because it helps my tone. The way I set it up was to play an open string and then bend a note against it and listened to hear if the open string went flat. If it did, then I screwed the trem claw in a bit and repeated until the note stayed steady against the bend. That way, I hoped, that I'd get the stability I wanted with the minimum amount pull from the trem springs. It's worked for me so far.
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Philly Q on March 11, 2009, 11:28:56 AM: Quote from: Andrew W on March 11, 2009, 09:37:28 AM
My other guitar, the strat, is also set up with the trem flat and on that I did add a couple of springs to the trem block because it helps my tone. The way I set it up was to play an open string and then bend a note against it and listened to hear if the open string went flat. If it did, then I screwed the trem claw in a bit and repeated until the note stayed steady against the bend. That way, I hoped, that I'd get the stability I wanted with the minimum amount pull from the trem springs. It's worked for me so far.

I believe Jerry Donahue does something very similar so he can still do his Tele-style bends when playing his Strat.

There was an interesting little clip I saw on YouTube of Carl Verheyen* talking about how he adjusts his spring claw to fine-tune the pitch-change on each string when using the bar. So the claw ends up at an angle rather than being parallel to the end of the spring cavity. I think he was talking about up-bends though, it would be difficult to be that precise with down-bends!

(* thanks to forum member elavd for pointing it out to me)
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Andrew W on March 11, 2009, 11:45:15 AM: Quote from: Philly Q on March 11, 2009, 11:28:56 AM
There was an interesting little clip I saw on YouTube of Carl Verheyen* talking about how he adjusts his spring claw to fine-tune the pitch-change on each string when using the bar. So the claw ends up at an angle rather than being parallel to the end of the spring cavity.

This one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZnQt9yiBMg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZnQt9yiBMg)
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Philly Q on March 11, 2009, 11:47:45 AM: That's the chap.
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Madiac on March 11, 2009, 04:25:17 PM: Thanks, sounds like great ideas, but im still not convinced, still sounds like its a slight compromise. I mean, i do REALLY wide bends.
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: AndyR on March 11, 2009, 06:04:37 PM: You never know...?

At least now you know the issues you'd be looking for - I'd suggest go and try a few out and see how they feel (otherwise it will bug you forever!) :D
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Vlad89 on March 11, 2009, 07:41:10 PM: This guy claims that the strings do not go out of tune on his OFR-equipped guitar when bending -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K350onEl1o&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: dave_mc on March 11, 2009, 07:48:15 PM: Quote from: Copperhead on March 11, 2009, 02:12:54 AM
Free floating trems will hamper your vibrato and heavy bends, unless you get in the habit of pulling up on the trem as you bend, ala Jeff Beck.

what? no they don't. the problem is ONLY if you bend and then need to hit a note on a different string before releasing the first, bent string.

Quote from: Madiac on March 11, 2009, 04:25:17 PM
Thanks, sounds like great ideas, but im still not convinced, still sounds like its a slight compromise. I mean, i do REALLY wide bends.

wide bends aren't a problem at all- unless you're planning on hitting a note on a different string before you've released the first bend, as i already said.

don't get me wrong, i'm not a floating trem fanboy, i'm just not keen on faults being attributed to them which are incorrect.

as already said countless times in this thread, don't make your mind up until you've tried some. that's the obvious way to go, unless there are no guitar shops near you or something. :)
Title: Re: Fixed bridges vs trems for bending etc.
Post by: Zaned on March 11, 2009, 07:59:40 PM: Quote from: Vlad89 on March 11, 2009, 07:41:10 PM
This guy claims that the strings do not go out of tune on his OFR-equipped guitar when bending -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K350onEl1o&feature=channel_page

That was not the case in this thread. This thread was about the pitch of other strings dropping when you bend one string. For example, bend the g-string on a floating bridge -> the pitch of E,A,D,B and high-E will drop.

In the video, it's about the string NOT returning to pitch after bending. Actually, probably all the strings that were bent went out of tune.

Off-topic, but about the video. That guys Kahler-equipped guitar (at least in the way it has been setup) would be totally useless for me IN COMPARISON to a vintage style strat bridge. It can be easily setup so that it returns to pitch after you deck it. But it will go out of tune when you bend a string, just like in that Kahler in that video :)

-Zaned