Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: tomjackson on March 17, 2009, 03:46:41 PM
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I'm plannin on getting a semi and I'm thinking of putting Mules in it. I have a set of A2 Stormy Mondays which love but I want a little bit more bark and definition. Also, my SM's are potted and I really want unpotted pups, don't know why but it just seems right in a semi.
BUT, I really want the natural flavour of the guitar to come through, would mules mask some of this, i.e. are they a bit too hot for a vintage sounding 335?
My other thought would be perhaps the stormies would have a little bit more definition and bite with the maple of the 335 rather than my thick bodied all mahogany Gordon Smith which they are currently in.
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Personally, i would have gone for Riff Raffs. It's the sort of pickup that would have been on there in the early sixties. A 335 with Riff Raffs would do some killer Chuck Berry.
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My other thought would be perhaps the stormies would have a little bit more definition and bite with the maple of the 335 rather than my thick bodied all mahogany Gordon Smith which they are currently in.
I think that may be true. If it's not enough, you could go for a subtle (and inexpensive) change by swapping the A2 magnets for A4, that would tighten things up a bit. I think Derek (Fourth Feline) did that with his SM set (albeit in an SG, not a 335).
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My other thought would be perhaps the stormies would have a little bit more definition and bite with the maple of the 335 rather than my thick bodied all mahogany Gordon Smith which they are currently in.
I think that may be true. If it's not enough, you could go for a subtle (and inexpensive) change by swapping the A2 magnets for A4, that would tighten things up a bit. I think Derek (Fourth Feline) did that with his SM set (albeit in an SG, not a 335).
Hiya Tom , :)
I eventually tried my Stormy Mondays in both the Gibson S.G. and a 'Tanglewood' 335 copy.
As PhillyQ pointed out, I eventually changed Alnico II magnets for AIV types - as ( especially in the 335 copy ) the bass strings sounded a bit soft and 'blurred' . They make nickel plated strings sound like pure nickel wound.
Ironically in a Les Paul ( Mahogany with Maple top ) - Even the Alnico II Stormies sounded clearer than in either the wholly Mahogany S.G. - or the Basswood body / Mahogany neck 335 copy.
For the 335, I ultimately got the combination / balance of fat, yet articulately clear highs and clearly defined bass response, by fitting Mississipi Queens . At the time I specifically wanted a Larry Carlton ( Sapphire Blues Band era ) sound / vibe. As his was 335 is maple and thinner laminates are used, his Gibson '57 classics seemed to do O.K ( although I hear they tend to have quite a 'bite' for Alnico II pickups ).
On balance, considering your needs and my evolution through AII Stormys - AIV Stormys - Mississipi Queens - then eventually putting it's ( no name ceramic ) pickups back in - I would therefore lean towards / agree with Ratrod's suggestion of Riff Raffs. My reasoning being that if upgrading a 335 pickup set, that bass end articulation may need addressing ( so the bass strings do not get 'lost' and mellowed out in the natural body resonances of a semi-acoustic ).
As far as pickups I have actually owned / experimented with - I would highly recommend the Mississipi Queens, but the Riff Raffs ( I once heard ) will have such a surfeit of 'bite' and clarity, that tone controls and E.Q can be used to 'tame' them if needs be.
The Mississipi Queens are gorgeous in a 335, but are fatter sounding - and being basically a nickel boxed P90 - ( i.e. with the pickup screw heads / pole pieces sitting closer together in the centre ) - the tonal difference between neck and bridge is more subtle ' they DO sound different, but it's shades of grey - not black and white. I tend to use the middle pickup position almost exclusively, so this was ideal for me .
My caution about the Mules ( which I have only ever used in my Les Paul ) - is not that they would be too aggressive, but quite the contrary, in that the slightly increased mid range 'hump' over the Stormy Mondays - might produce a darker effect in the semi- acoustic format, whereas Mississippi Queens are fat but essentially single coil pickups, so you get a very clear glassy edge on that 'fat' sound if you flip to the bridge pickup and dig in.
So, for the reasons stated, Riff Raffs or Mississipi Queens get my vote for your purposes. :)
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I'd be tempted to go the same way as Ratrod. I used to have 335 type guitar that I gigged with a lot years back, and from my experience with Riff Raffs and Mules now, the RRs is what I'd put in there. It would have some nice bark and bite.
But, I've not tried the Stormies myself... I'd like to, but for me personally I suspect they'd turn out a little too "nice" for me in a 335 type.
EDIT: Fourth Feline's posted while I was writing - yep, agree with him too. I'd be tempted by MQs as well, but for what I'd want a 335 to do, it would be Riff Raffs based on my experience. And FF's expressed what I couldn't - it would be the definition on the bass strings I'd be interested in getting :D
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I'd be tempted to go the same way as Ratrod. I used to have 335 type guitar that I gigged with a lot years back, and from my experience with Riff Raffs and Mules now, the RRs is what I'd put in there. It would have some nice bark and bite.
But, I've not tried the Stormies myself... I'd like to, but for me personally I suspect they'd turn out a little too "nice" for me in a 335 type.
EDIT: Fourth Feline's posted while I was writing - yep, agree with him too. I'd be tempted by MQs as well, but for what I'd want a 335 to do, it would be Riff Raffs based on my experience. And FF's expressed what I couldn't - it would be the definition on the bass strings I'd be interested in getting :D
- And as Andy's comments informed and evolved my own, the Riff Raffs would also be pure humbucking - instead of having a P90 M.Q shielded case / Faraday cage hum reduction.
Also in the final analysis, Andy's use of the phrase " a little too nice " could be also be relatively true of the Mississippi Queens ; being as they are clear, produce good volume - but I bought them to mimic a slightly clearer and more assertive "Nice " . :)
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So, Tom, sorted... next question? :lol:
Sadly what it has done for me is given a slight hint of 335 GAS - I've managed to avoid it completely, even with all the talk recently, right up until I was responding to you, and I thought mmm.. Riff Raffs in a 335 8)
No worries, I shall fight it :D
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So, Tom, sorted... next question? :lol:javascript:moreSmileys(); :wink:
Sadly what it has done for me is given a slight hint of 335 GAS - I've managed to avoid it completely, even with all the talk recently, right up until I was responding to you, and I thought mmm.. Riff Raffs in a 335 8)
No worries, I shall fight it :D
Seek counseling immediately Andy ! Semi - Acoustic 'G.A.S.' can easily lead to a serious ' Archtop ' habit. This is often followed by the subsequent use of 'sissy' sounding chords at low volumes ... :roll:
Fight it while you still can, the first step is in admitting it. :wink:
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No worries, I shall fight it :D
For how long? Two days? :lol:
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It's ok boys, I've had my dinner, I'm ok now...
I'm drinking a nice cup of coffee cradling my tele in my arms, idly picking out blues licks - all thoughts of buying 335s are out of my mind again :lol:
(I have to admit that some fairly sissy jazz/blues chords with the volume backed off on the neck pickup have crept into the repertoire of late though :roll:)
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Funnily enough I was asking about such a thing a few days back. I think I may go for the Riff Raffs after all, seems like they'd do pretty much what I'd want after all.
Seek counseling immediately Andy ! Semi - Acoustic 'G.A.S.' can easily lead to a serious ' Archtop ' habit. This is often followed by the subsequent use of 'sissy' sounding chords at low volumes ... :roll:
Fight it while you still can, the first step is in admitting it. :wink:
I can honestly say this has never affected me when I got my Epi dot. It's all fuzz and powerchords with me most of the time. unless I hook up my delay pedal and go all post-rock/shoegaze! :lol:
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Thanks for the advise guys, food for thought.
I'd never have considered Riff Raff's, I'd always though of them as Angus pickups only really. I'll do some research on them and listen to a few clips. I play mainly clean or breakup (aside from the occational nasty solo :twisted:) so I need to find some clips in the lower gain ranges.
I'm thinking Riff Raff's would sound like this:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvi2EpkLHjc
To clarify, I want something basically PAF that converys the hollow woody tone of the semi, but when I dig in are not too polite and I can get the amp to breakup a bit, so basically a good dynamic range, good cleans, detailed in the bass with a bit of woody twang and with a bit of kick for solos in the bridge.
I suppose the easiest would be to use my existinmg SM's but as 335's are a pain in the behind to swap pup's I want to get it right first time. I may get the magnets changed to AIV since it's not too expensive and try that, but Riff Raffs do sound interesting.
MQ's sound right up my street from your description Fourth Feline, but as this will be my only humbucker guitar I think I would always want another guitar as a home for some PAF ish humbuckers. But if they are all you say them perhaps not.....
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Probably more gain than I usually play with but I like this tone as well.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv_2iGq1_VU
And this for the jazzier stuff where you can hear the wood coming through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnJIvw12y5k
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Have you decided what semi you're getting, Tom? Once you've lived with the stock pickups for a while it might be easier to figure out what you want the new pickups to do (and not do!).
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Not yet Philly, but it does make a lot of sense :D
The GAS send us a bit crazy sometime :?
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The GAS send us a bit crazy sometime :?
Tell me about it! :lol:
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Thanks for the advise guys, food for thought.
I'd never have considered Riff Raff's, I'd always though of them as Angus pickups only really. I'll do some research on them and listen to a few clips. I play mainly clean or breakup (aside from the occational nasty solo :twisted:) so I need to find some clips in the lower gain ranges.
I'm thinking Riff Raff's would sound like this:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvi2EpkLHjc
To clarify, I want something basically PAF that converys the hollow woody tone of the semi, but when I dig in are not too polite and I can get the amp to breakup a bit, so basically a good dynamic range, good cleans, detailed in the bass with a bit of woody twang and with a bit of kick for solos in the bridge.
I suppose the easiest would be to use my existinmg SM's but as 335's are a pain in the behind to swap pup's I want to get it right first time. I may get the magnets changed to AIV since it's not too expensive and try that, but Riff Raffs do sound interesting.
MQ's sound right up my street from your description Fourth Feline, but as this will be my only humbucker guitar I think I would always want another guitar as a home for some PAF ish humbuckers. But if they are all you say them perhaps not.....
Riff Raffs in a 335 are Exactly what I am hearing in that Gregor Hilden clip. :)
To be fair, I am having to take the memory of hearing Twinfan's Riff Raffs in a solid body guitar - and factor in the trademark 335 / 339 tone shaping characteristics , but that sound is not M.Qs, and certainly not AIV Stormies. The bit that decides it for me time and again in that clip, is the sheer hard bite that he gets when he picks hard or lays off of the right hand damping.
The Stormies would be his most 'polite' playing - but all the time - and the M.Qs would fatten where his pickups 'cut' without appology.
In valve amplifier terms ( however abstract this comparison might sound ) the Riff Raffs sound to have that EL34 like upper mid range grind and bite to me ; and the M.Qs ( in contrast ) have a glassy, full , rounded 6L6 (Fender Twin) like sound to me.
Good choice of video to frame your question there ! :)
:)
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Probably more gain than I usually play with but I like this tone as well.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv_2iGq1_VU
And this for the jazzier stuff where you can hear the wood coming through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnJIvw12y5k
Now in this case, I hear the Riff Raff type tone in the first clip, albeit being controled and muted for about 90% of the time. The Riff Raff - a -like character comes on the edge of about 10% of those notes where it cuts almost enough to set your tooth fillings on edge - albeit briefly.
The second clip is ( for me ) pure AIV Stormy Mondays - but unless you want that tone all the time , get the Riff Raffs, select the neck, apply subtle ( Larry Carlton like ) right hand string damping on the bridge - and roll off the tone a touch.
Of course I am forgetting to mention the 'fabled' Riff Raff bridge / AIV Stormy Monday neck combo IF you want to sound like all three players you have showcased here. :)
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Tom - did you try the Riff Raffs in my SG at the Manchester meet? If not, you're welcome to bob round to mine and try them.
If you did play mine and you're thinking they might be a bit too 'Angus', remember you were playing through my 'DC rig with an SG. That might have influenced things a bit ;)
I think Riff Raffs (brighter, more bite, colder) or AIV Stormies (still bright, bit warmer, smoother) would get my vote.
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Okay, I'm really leaning towards the Riff Raff's now, thanks again for the advise.
Twinfan, I did try your SG at the meet and it sounded great but I think the setup was obviously geared for the Angus edgy crunch so I was listening/playing with that in mind, at the time I would never have considered Riff Raff's in a semi for cleaner blues....not because I thought they would not be good, just becasue I was in an AC/DC frame of mind.
I think when I get the semi I'll take you up on that offer and have another listen to them. I was in sounds great before looking at the Peerless Guitars but they only had the full archtop Jazz guitars rather than the 335 style I like.
I might pop over to Richtone next week to have a go of the Japanese Tokais....
Fourth Feline, I like your valve analogy. I love 6L6's though so I'm definitely not put off by the M.Q.'s. Do you know of any YT clips that would approximate their sound?
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Okay, I'm really leaning towards the Riff Raff's now, thanks again for the advise.
Twinfan, I did try your SG at the meet and it sounded great but I think the setup was obviously geared for the Angus edgy crunch so I was listening/playing with that in mind, at the time I would never have considered Riff Raff's in a semi for cleaner blues....not because I thought they would not be good, just becasue I was in an AC/DC frame of mind.
I think when I get the semi I'll take you up on that offer and have another listen to them. I was in sounds great before looking at the Peerless Guitars but they only had the full archtop Jazz guitars rather than the 335 style I like.
I might pop over to Richtone next week to have a go of the Japanese Tokais....
Fourth Feline, I like your valve analogy. I love 6L6's though so I'm definitely not put off by the M.Q.'s. Do you know of any YT clips that would approximate their sound?
Yes Tom, but ironically it is someone playing Gibson '57 classics. The link is that Larry Carlton is often right hand damping, using the bridge pickup with the tone rolled way back, using a heavy pick and setting the E.Q to quench the full firepower till the higher speed 'breaks' when he unleashes the bridge a bit more and also sometimes kicks the Whah pedal full forward e.t.c.
The tone I got from M.Qs being very close to this ( only obvioulsy the playing not as good ) . The whole vibe is more rounded than sharp though, the top end goes glassy and fat - and the edge when it comes - has width as well as 'spike' .
It's all about balance between pickups and woods again, but check out ( as a tonal example ) near the end where he starts picking / slapping the strings between finger and thumb, as it is his use of the '57s that sound ( paradoxically) like M.Qs - or ( in a lighter semi-acoustic than mine ) probably the AIV Stormy Monday.
I was faced with a great playing, looking and feeling guitar, but it had thick basswood laminates for the body - and a mahogany neck. Without some clean / clear extra 'muscle' it was not going to sound like an 'airy' thin Maple laminate job - which you are getting (?) .
But whilst the attached clip is therefore not 'pure M.Q. ' the end result of his picking technique often demonstrates the tonal character of a M.Q. - in that you get 'fat' on the top e / b / g when stroking the strings , but with that fat overwound single coil 'glassy' edge when digging into the bridge or middle toggle posistions.
So , here ( approximately ) goes :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNIXVw_kni4&feature=related
Also think of Dave Gilmour's solo in " Another Brick In The Wall Pt II " - pure Gibson Les Paul / P90 goodness :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUASiDg-kg4
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Have you seen it?
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14533.0
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14532.0