Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => The Dressing Room => Topic started by: Dmoney on April 13, 2009, 03:56:08 PM
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so, this is another rant.
one of the shows we played at the weekend we were meant to be getting £170 to split between us, and our kind of 'brother band'. we share members and just happened to be on this gig together.
the promoter tries to argue in advance of the show that he shouldnt pay us that much, but agrees with us to stick to it. we turn up, and get asked to headline over the £500 2 band tour package he also has booked. in fact, he begs us. then we get paid well before we play, and gives us £150... so he wants to forget our agreement, and ask us to headline a show for £150 over 2 bands costing him £500 because otherwise people will leave (so he claims). so yeah, we refused and played before those bands, and so did our brother band, and we blew away the tour the package that came on after us.
why do people suck the balls off bands just because they are touring and not from the UK? why do promoters think its cool to pay local or travelling UK bands just enough for them to break even, and accept tour packages for £500+ for overseas bands first european tours when they aren't even the 'crowd pullers' so to speak. I don't want to sound arrogant. just realistic. something just doesnt add up.
the money might not be much in relation to other tours, but considering the bands, labels, venues etc... its relative. you know?
rant over. (we got the extra £20 in the end)
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(http://www.arxmansports.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/baseball-bats-what-is-your-choice.jpg)
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i like your style!
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8)
Seriously though, I'm fed up of bands getting $%&#ed over by promoters and not doing anything about it. A few of my mates have a regular gig at a venue, they don't even get payed and they don't do anything about it, just accept it, it's a joke.
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Remember Phil Power with his pay to play?
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These stunts go on and bands get turned over. I hate it when they say that they are doing you a favour letting you play. I have been ripped off many times over the years. Sometimes we got our revenge sometimes not. The baseball bat does indeed have its attractions as a method of persuasion.
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i asked if i could get my mate on crutches in for free with another dude paying, and got told yes, then that changed to oh, you have to pay, but my mates only wanted to see two bands and had driven from sheffield, so then one of them paid a fiver, the other might have paid full price after i walked off. then after that the promoter was chasing my boy down saying the nobody gets one over on him. so my mate told him he'd only pay full price if he paid my band what was promised. but still. the principle of the thing! im more annoyed about how promoters treat UK bands in relation to overseas ones. I aint cheap labour for anyone, and nobody on this forum is.
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I used to have real "issues" with this kinda thing when I was playing live - I sympathise greatly.
I also used to have trouble with acquaintances thinking they could get in on the "guest-list" for low- or nil- paying gigs. This was especially irksome when we had an internal policy where even our other halves paid (or we paid for them personally).
You reminded me of this little exchange, and I found a copy on my PC. Not sure when I wrote it down, or when it happened, but it happened :lol: (must be approaching 10 years ago...)
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The "guest list" issue for amateur bands... You're doing this gig, and this bloke turns up at the desk (usually the same one every gig) for a £2 admission.
"Hey Angus! (my nickname) Any chance of getting in on the guest list?"
"Er, no..."
"Aww why not? I'm your mate."
"Look round this room. There's only 30 people here - I actually know them all. They've all paid - including my missus, and she helped carry the gear in. If I let you in what happens? Besides, at the moment, if you pay now, that's takings of £62. The venue wants 50% that's £31, the PA cost us £30..."
"hey you're in profit! cool..."
"...Petrol for the band vehicles tonite is £15. There's 4 of us, so currently it's costing us £3.50 each to play here. There's been two rehearsals since the last gig - that's another £15 each. And on top of that I'm using £10 worth of new strings tonite to keep you entertained and they'll need replacing tomorrow. All in all it is costing me £28.50 to be here tonite which is, er, 1,425% of what we're asking you to pay"
"so, er, no chance of getting on the guest list then?"
"fraid not... there isn't one..."
"fascist... don't know why I bother"
"neither do I darling - look, do you to come in? I've got to go and tune up - oh yeah, new batteries, those were £2.50 yesterday"
"fascist..." (empties pocket full of 2p pieces to pay entrance fee, proceeds to the bar and spends £20 on beer)
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Keep music live, etc :lol:
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haha. man. it was £8.50 into that show, and it was RAMMED, there was easily over 100 people and the first bunch on bands where meant to be playing for free because 2 gigs on the same night got merged to stop one being empty or whatever. thats what i was told. my friends know how it works, my two friends in question have been in bands and put on shows and still run DIY record labels. They knew beforehand about the payment to get in thing. so yeah, look like we were the main draw, we didnt get the headline slot initially because we are from the UK and not America, the dude tried to under pay us £20 and make us headline, and wouldnt let us get 2 people in (a friend and the guy who runs our record label).
Im waiting for some photos to appear from the night featuring my soldano haha.
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It's a timely reminder that live music is approaching death in the UK. Makes me really quite sad.
If you want to keep playing on a stage in front of peoplein the future, you're probably going to have to pay for the "privelege".
These days, I fervently stick clear of playing in multi-band line-ups. It's just too much effort for too little playing and virtually no reward.
Build your band up to being a quality act and you can have a whole evening to yourself at a load of venues. It's usually the only way I'll play these days.
I do sympathise with those of you who still struggle through all the cr@p to just play at all.
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Watchdog are doing a story on a dodgy promoter as I type this
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I'm sorry to hear you got a shitety deal. At least you got what you were originally promised.
I guess from a promoters point of view, a touring band will have higher costs, if he actaully wants to keep them on side he's going to have to pay them as promised, because chances are they are probably out of pocket themselves. I'm only guessing I have no idea how the live music scene works :)
But he must know it's a kick in the teeth to you to ask you to headline for less money, I'm not sure what he was thinking? Or drinking for that matter.
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van hire, backline hire, driver hire, flights, i guess it adds up. but when we toured the US we got $100 and we didnt break even if you include flights, plus its harder that way round because of the exchange rate, and we didnt pay for workpermits or backline. buts its a struggle. in our scene over here touring bands get fed, places to sleep. people are generous with their own homes, very hospitable.
I mean, before the money problems US bands coming here where doubling their money on returning home. don't get me wrong, booking companies rip those bands off too, depending on who they are. its a total minefield.
I just remembered what the promoter said to my bro "nobody stiffs me" haha.
its all politics.
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I have no right to this opinion, but I can't shake the image of most promoters being parasitic sleazoids who leave you in need of a bath after dealing with them. There have to be good ones as well.
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I have no right to this opinion, but I can't shake the image of most promoters being parasitic sleazoids who leave you in need of a bath after dealing with them. There have to be good ones as well.
there are good ones for sure.
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contracts.
anything over £100, get a contract drawn up, that means that they HAVE to play (providing you held up your end of the contract) unless they want legal action.
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ive seen booking agencies do deals with 16 year old kids who want to put on the bands they love. they promise the world and dont know what to do to put on a show, then it fails, and the bands get stiffed because they have to threaten a 16 year old for the money, or try and get it from his parents. and then once the touring bands have lost money due to bad booking, the booking agency will turn around and charge a hefty hefty fee to the bands for booking the bad shows and making posters and so on. with what we do, ive seen dudes in europe fully up for driving to the booking agencies office and smashing everybody in it to bits. some people you just dont want to mess with.
shame. all that is people taking advantage of a kids passion for music. happens more often than you'd think at a certain level.
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i've done a few tours abroad in the past, always lose money... in fact anything involving music is a big money hole. been f_cked over so many times i've lost count. and 'up your arse' to all those concerned in that!
but, i'm not bitter at all. i knew it was going to be like that and i wouldn't miss it for anything.
playing live music is the best thing in the world, no doubt about it.
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ive seen booking agencies do deals with 16 year old kids who want to put on the bands they love. they promise the world and dont know what to do to put on a show, then it fails, and the bands get stiffed because they have to threaten a 16 year old for the money, or try and get it from his parents. and then once the touring bands have lost money due to bad booking, the booking agency will turn around and charge a hefty hefty fee to the bands for booking the bad shows and making posters and so on. with what we do, ive seen dudes in europe fully up for driving to the booking agencies office and smashing everybody in it to bits. some people you just dont want to mess with.
shame. all that is people taking advantage of a kids passion for music. happens more often than you'd think at a certain level.
a friend of mine used to be in a fairly big metal/hardcore band and that happened to him so he had to go and knock on the parents door to get the money.
on the other hand tho, they also played a gig in bradford in some students cellar, got paid a small amount of cash but had a whale of a time. :D
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a friend of mine used to be in a fairly big metal/hardcore band and that happened to him so he had to go and knock on the parents door to get the money.
on the other hand tho, they also played a gig in bradford in some students cellar, got paid a small amount of cash but had a whale of a time.
my bands played in basements. never really had to go nuts at a promoter though. we lots some money in italy last summer, but we really couldnt do anything about it. that was a 3 band package tour. but in the end everyone came out ok. Playing and writing songs is better than the money side of things. i agree. i just dont think people should take advantage of bands by assuming everyone CAN deal with making a loss all the time. i know thats not what you mean gwem, im just saying.
but like, if everyone had a problem with gigs they could always put their own shows on. DIY ethic. form a musicians collective and share the responsibity.
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i know thats not what you mean gwem, im just saying.
i know mate :)
but like, if everyone had a problem with gigs they could always put their own shows on. DIY ethic. form a musicians collective and share the responsibity.
i've done this a few times - problem is venues often give external promoters a far less advantageous rate. its still hard to recover costs in my experience :(
edit: i sometimes think professional promoters need to be deliberately dishonest to make any money at all
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aww man. i didnt think of that. finding a good venue is hard work. Liverpool used to have a place called the 24/7 (aka heav'n'hell). that place was FREE to hire out to bands. simply because they made good money at the bar when the place was full.
it was sooo good!
it got closed down by people trying to get liverpool the 'capital of culture' thing, by ironically shutting down bulldozing anything cultural in the city to dirt.
has anybody ever fantasized about owning a venue? haha
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aww man. i didnt think of that. finding a good venue is hard work. Liverpool used to have a place called the 24/7 (aka heav'n'hell). that place was FREE to hire out to bands. simply because they made good money at the bar when the place was full.
it was sooo good!
it got closed down by people trying to get liverpool the 'capital of culture' thing, by ironically shutting down bulldozing anything cultural in the city to dirt.
has anybody ever fantasized about owning a venue? haha
i know a few stories like that of cool venues... blame rent/wholesale price of booze.. but i'm sure we all agree there is never any excuse for any dishonest or lies.
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but i'm sure we all agree there is never any excuse for any dishonest or lies.
and i especially dislike this from other musicians... (even some dishonest peeps on this forum :( - though luckily not that many)
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B33F
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Why the hell do we need promoters anyway? I've never gone to a gig because of a poster or flyer, i've gone because i've seen it on the local gig listing or i know the band and seen it on their myspace/email/whatever.
I ignore all posters i see and to be honest expect most of them to be of gigs already gone by. Usually is the case.
Anyone i know who has been a 'promoter' is just some sad sad socialite looking for some social brownie points and to feel special, never gave a toss about the music or the bands. But that's just my limited experience so far....
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has anybody ever fantasized about owning a venue? haha
we just made our own "venue" in our garage a few months back. most of the local bars here werent allowing punk and hardcore bands to play and i moved into a central location with a big garage, so I bought a PA, put up a bit of noise proofing and were good to go. Have had some great party shows there, usually just do it free/cheap entry for local bands, reasonably cheap entry for out of town bands to cover gas etc. up to the bands playing if they want to charge generally. even had a couple of international bands down there.
sucks having to clean up after 100+ punks some weeks, but its so much easier than dealing with everything else to do with putting on shows.
cops came last week but managed to get rid of them with only a few small lies :lol:
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has anybody ever fantasized about owning a venue? haha
we just made our own "venue" in our garage a few months back. most of the local bars here werent allowing punk and hardcore bands to play and i moved into a central location with a big garage, so I bought a PA, put up a bit of noise proofing and were good to go. Have had some great party shows there, usually just do it free/cheap entry for local bands, reasonably cheap entry for out of town bands to cover gas etc. up to the bands playing if they want to charge generally. even had a couple of international bands down there.
sucks having to clean up after 100+ punks some weeks, but its so much easier than dealing with everything else to do with putting on shows.
cops came last week but managed to get rid of them with only a few small lies :lol:
awesome
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if you're in the UK, I'd love to play there!
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if you're in the UK, I'd love to play there!
Ditto! :)
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nah, far away from uk, in new zealand.
but feel free to come play if you want.