Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: _tom_ on April 14, 2009, 03:07:24 PM
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I'm allready planning my next guitar which will hopefully be as follows:
-sg style but with a reinforced neck joint/deeper tenon
-all mahogany
-rosewood 'board
Will Warpigs even sound good in that guitar?
Also how versatile are they? Whilst I think this guitar will be more of a stripped down "metal" guitar than my others, I still want to be able to play other styles if I want to, as my tastes are always changing. I remember some french jazz musicians using the pigs for that but I dont play jazz. I do metal, classic rock, stoner rock/metal and punk type stuff. Obviously I'd have to use the volume control to change the output but what do you reckon?
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Very, for their power.
Their split and parralel is great, their clean and crunch is great...only thing I havent tried, and recommend (at a guess at its performance) for max versatility from them is tapped.
If you had a set of pigs, 5 way selection with splits for each one on 2 and 4, and 2 vol push pull to tap them there would be very few tones you couldnt get at least the general vibe of.
They'll work fine in all-mahogany as well.
Only thing is for the split and tap they'd have to be....6 conductor? (4 conductor with the 2 extra outs for the tap?). Unconventional, but likely the sort of thing Tim wont bat an eyelid at.
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I reckon the std alnico Warpig would sound good in that guitar. They sounded good in my Gibson V & absolutely fantastic in Feline's SG-style guitar.
The A-pig is reasonably versatile. Although it's very powerful & pushes the amp hard, it's perfectly useable clean with a full, warm, rich tone. Under high gain it's very saturated but there are some nice sounds to be had from rolling back the guitar's volume & you can always turn the amp's gain down :)
I'm not sure the C-pig is quite so useable clean, I've never tried one.
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Good to hear :)
Yeah I was gonna go with the alnico version, think the ceramic one would be too modern and tight/compressed for me.
I wasnt going to bother with splitting and stuff because I wanted to keep the look of the guitar quite simple so dont want switches all over the place, was just going to go with a single volume control and a 3-way toggle. I guess I could put a smaller toggle on for splitting though (I hated the push/pull I tried, so flimsy feeling), if that sounds good on the pigs?
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I had a split and parralel C-Pig. Both sounded great, and I'm exptrapolating from that.
The C-Pigs cleans are a little sterile, but still OK. Better than a miracle man anyway.
The only visual difference with a normal SG would be its got a 5-way instead of a 3 way toggle. Whats the big deal about that?
But yeah, pigs can hack it fairly well without alt wirings, versatility wise. Very good for their power, at least. To get the best versatility out of them go with the switching options. They're great for them.
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Dunno I dont really like the look of 5-way toggles at all, gibson styles need to have the proper 3 way imo haha.
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very versatile, especially if you have a series/parallel toggle!
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i was strongly impressed by the pig in afgan dave's basswood superstrat - ideal for thrash in E standard. less impressed with it in philking's explorer, though was quite good wired in parallel.
to get a bit of extra tightness, think about a 25.5" scale length and/or a maple neck (with your favourite rosewood board as you say). i have this scale length and wood combo in my Flying V 90, and its as tight as you like with the Holy Diver, I reckon an A5 pig would be the same.
since its custom, i would think about an ebony board, its my favourite fingerboard material :)
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i got it in a tiny 1988 ibanez Saber............It sounds better for cleans than my duncan cool rails and my YJM dimarzio which are both in the same guitar (middle and neck position) enough said?
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very versatile, very powerful, very nasty and dirty... they split well and have a really nice crunch when turned down.
in your SG alike they will sound great!
ah, judging from your clips i was wondering why you hadn't yet bought a set of WPs!
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Their split and parralel is great, their clean and crunch is great...only thing I havent tried, and recommend (at a guess at its performance) for max versatility from them is tapped.
Completely off topic, sorry, but what are the difference (in sound, wiring, etc) between :
- coil split
- parrallel
- and coil tapped ? :mrgreen:
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Completely off topic, sorry, but what are the difference (in sound, wiring, etc) between :
- coil split
- parrallel
- and coil tapped ? :mrgreen:
OK, the "full" humbucker sound is both coils in series.
Wiring them in parallel gives you a much less powerful sound, quite like a single coil in character, but hum cancelling.
Coil split it just one of the coils. It's basically a single coil sound, not hum-cancelling, but generally speaking it's not as good as a "real" single coil because it wasn't wound specifically for that purpose.
Coil tapped is an often mis-used term that is actually describing coil split. Real coil tapping is where the output can be switched to part way round the pickup wind, so it's a slightly lower output signal with different tonal characteristics. It's something that has to be built into the pickup & doesn't come standard.
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Split is one coil of the humbucker and sounds more like a single coil (but not quite)
Parallel sounds lower gain, less compressed, more high end and high mids, clearer and more dynamic. I really like powerful bridges in parallel (or at least with the option)
Tapped is a second output from a shorter portion of the wind, lowering power and compression, increasing high end and dynamics.
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for coil tap, imagine winding a pickup coil so far, lets say till it was 6k. stop at that point and add an output. then wind on anouther 6k worth ot turns and add another output
then you have a 6k output and a 12k output from the same pickup
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Many thanks for the as-usual-high-quality inputs guys ! I think actually coil split and coil tap are often use to say the same thing which is why your posts here are very usefull to clear it up !
When you have a guitar with a push-pull knob for coil splitting, do you need a special order or are the 4 conductors cables enough ? I assume all the BKP are ready for coil splitting, but you seem to say that's not the case for coil tap ?
And finally what does hum cancelling mean ? and why coil split is not hum cancelling ? :mrgreen:
Still sorry for the off topic question (especially because Tom, I know you say 1 knob is enough for you so much so that this discussion might bore you to death :lol:)
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Four conductor wiring can give you series, parallel and coil split options. Coil taps have to be built in at the pickup winding stage, and would be a special order.
Hum cancelling is when the two coils of the humbucker are reverse wound and reverse magnetic polarity. That's how humbuckers got their name, and how they were designed ;) If you split the humbucker to one coil only, it doesn't have the reverse coil to buck the hum.
That's why single coil pickups in Strats and Teles are prone to noise interference, and why you see single coil pickup sets offered with some coils RWRP (Reverse Wound Reverse Polarity) to cancel the hum when used in pairs :)
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Vic, how about you start your own thread with all your questions on pickup mechanics, rather than hijack toms?
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I dont mind, I hijack enough threads myself so it doesnt matter haha
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*shrug* fair enough.
So we're thread-swingers now, with modern, "open" threads?
Cool with me. I too hijack many a thread, I suppose.
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Ahh, this is slightly unrelated, but not enough to warrant a new thread. Has anyone ever tried a warpig with chrome covers?
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Tom, I'd say having a split of some sort on the Pigs is a very good idea - I have a mini switch to tap the pair on my Warmoth build - original plan was to have a push-pull tone pot, but I had the hole for the volume control drilled in the wrong place, and my tech's idea for a save was the mini switch - it's worked great.
Tapping the Pigs is great for clean work, but also provides a very usable sound under gain - they have so much power, it's still pretty hot. It's a very worthwhile thing to do - I'd say if you didn't, you'd be missing out on a whole different aspect of the pickup.
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Ahh, this is slightly unrelated, but not enough to warrant a new thread. Has anyone ever tried a warpig with chrome covers?
i don't think this can influence tone at all!
anyway they can be done, if you ask...
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Ahh, this is slightly unrelated, but not enough to warrant a new thread. Has anyone ever tried a warpig with chrome covers?
I have a chrome C-Pig.
Theres nothing to tell. Its a C-Pig thats chrome.
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Ahh, this is slightly unrelated, but not enough to warrant a new thread. Has anyone ever tried a warpig with chrome covers?
I have a chrome C-Pig.
Theres nothing to tell. Its a C-Pig thats chrome.
With the two rows of allen bolts? I might try that. How's the 'pig in Alder and Ash?
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I have a chrome C-Pig.
Theres nothing to tell. Its a C-Pig thats chrome.
:lol: :lol:
You MDV sometimes have some one-of-a-kind-logical-but-epic' inputs, just can't stop laughing when I read them !!
I think my favorite is this one :
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=43525385ca6baacb5feba181e2f17f7e&topic=14964.0
:lol:
AnyWAy : BACK TO TOPIC !!! :shock:
I dont mind, I hijack enough threads myself so it doesnt matter haha
Thanks Tom and sorry again.
Well, first of all you are right : I know the french custom shop in Paris who put some WP in jazz guitars and I have to tell I was so impressed when I heard them. Awesome ! 8)
(People around here are going to say the french jazzmen are crazy :lol:)
BUT when I asked Tim for some WP he said it was Tooooo much powerfull for me (I play Rock, and heavy metal stuff), and because of their power they shouldn't be considered to be thaaaat much versatile. But I told him I wasn't looking to always dial the vol knob to find my sound...so they appeared to be way too beefy for me...
But if you like the idea to often play with the vol knob then why not go for it, even if I think that the split mode will open you more sound fields, and it is a shame to prevent you from them if you want to push the versality of the WP to its best (know everything about split/parralel/tap coils now ! :mrgreen:. )
And may I ask you why you jump from your beloved mule straight to the Warpig without any stop at some CR/HD/NB levels ? Have you already tried them ?
PS : your clip of welcome to the jungle is great, really. Congrat' !!
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Dont tell me that, it'll just encourage me!
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sorry but just again can't stop :lol: :lol: :lol:
Anyway BACK TO TOPIC :shock:
.....
wait...
*shrug* fair enough.
So we're thread-swingers now, with modern, "open" threads?
Cool with me. I too hijack many a thread, I suppose.
:lol: :lol:
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hahaha I think we need a MDV quotes thread (in the dressing room, not here)
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With coil taps you could potentially have the most switchable unit available - standard full coil humbuckers - low out put humbuckers (half coil or some other split point), then you could split the humbuckers to give you full power single coil pickups or split the half humbuckers to give you lower power single coil pickups. Not done a wiring diagram but the switching would be fun!
There would be one condition - never ever ever try to play it live you would never know where you were up to!
In fact if you had a 3 humbucker job it could be the most versatile guitar ever made, 6 pots and two switches and the 3 volume pots would prolly need to be push pull as well for high and low power coils, standard 5 way switch for position select and the other toggle for single/humbuckers - gives 80 pickup modes.
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hahaha I think we need a MDV quotes thread (in the dressing room, not here)
I was already thinking of it... :lol:
AnyWay BACK TO TOPIC :shock:
(or you'll be under "all the drama of thunder and lightning", where have I read that ?)
In fact if you had a 3 humbucker job it could be the most versatile guitar ever made, 6 pots and two switches and the 3 volume pots would prolly need to be push pull as well for high and low power coils, standard 5 way switch for position select and the other toggle for single/humbuckers - gives 80 pickup mode.
I wasnt going to bother with splitting and stuff because I wanted to keep the look of the guitar quite simple so dont want switches all over the place, was just going to go with a single volume control and a 3-way toggle. I guess I could put a smaller toggle on for splitting though (I hated the push/pull I tried, so flimsy feeling), if that sounds good on the pigs?
I'm positive he will love the idea :lol:
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He could always put them on the back as inset thumb pots and flush switches - could even have none on the front - crazy flexibility and peeps wouldn't know how it was happening they would have to be along the back edge.
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With coil taps you could potentially have the most switchable unit available - standard full coil humbuckers - low out put humbuckers (half coil or some other split point), then you could split the humbuckers to give you full power single coil pickups or split the half humbuckers to give you lower power single coil pickups. Not done a wiring diagram but the switching would be fun!
There would be one condition - never ever ever try to play it live you would never know where you were up to!
In fact if you had a 3 humbucker job it could be the most versatile guitar ever made, 6 pots and two switches and the 3 volume pots would prolly need to be push pull as well for high and low power coils, standard 5 way switch for position select and the other toggle for single/humbuckers - gives 80 pickup modes.
thinks like this have been done. they can be fun but you always find yourself coming back to the same few sounds
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Yeah I dont want all that stuff as I'd spend far too much time messing around with the switches and not getting any playing done :P
Can you get 4 way mini toggles or something similar (that wont look as bad as a 5 way switch)? Ideally I'd like to have the options of:
1-no splitting
2-both split
3-neck split
4-bridge split
Or something.
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You can get a 3-way on/on/on mini switch to get Series/Split/Parallel, but you can only wire one pickup into it (so you'd need two of them if you wanted this for each pickup.
Or you can use a 2-wau on/on mini switch to split a pickup (I don't think that these are DPDT so again you'd need one per pickup)
Or you can split both pickups with a push/pull pot
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The last push pull pot I tried was terrible, really loose and flimsy feeling. Really put me off em.
btw is there much difference between split and parallel?
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btw is there much difference between split and parallel?
In my experience the tonal difference is slightly less than positions #4 (mid+neck) & #5 (neck only) on a strat.
& that parallel is hum cancelling, of course... :)
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thinks like this have been done. they can be fun but you always find yourself coming back to the same few sounds
Yes I expect you would but I have never come accross anything even close to this level of change so I expect there would be 5 or 6 sounds you would mostly use but the varaition would be far larger than the typical complex switching as the coil taps giving high low values combined with the single coil humbucker option would give a much greater scope for variation
So you may for example use high bridge humbucker, low neck humbucker, high bridge single coil, low neck/middle single coil, high humbucker neck middle.
Giving a much wider tonal and output change than typical complex systems which usually just give you more variations within the same small band (ie takes the extremes and allows 7 options imbetween instead of one or two) the objective here was to give the biggest scope.
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Hmm I think I'm going to have to have more than 1 knob anyway afterall as I realised that I like to switch between clean/dirty with the toggle, having the neck pickup volume down for the clean and bridge on full for the dirt.. so yeah I'd need 2 volumes, so if there are any good quality push/pull pots then that sorts it out and I wont need additional switches..
I think I remember Philly Q saying that PRS push/pull pots are good so I guess I could try to find some of those.
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I think I remember Philly Q saying that PRS push/pull pots are good so I guess I could try to find some of those.
Yeah, my Singlecut has the push/pull coil splitting on the tone knob & I have had no problems with reliability. It feels solid enough to me & it's visually (as well as aurally!) obvious which setting you're on.
CTS pots are plenty solid & reliable. They make a 500k w/push-pull pot so you can mount it on one of the volumes controls...
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Hmm I think I'm going to have to have more than 1 knob anyway afterall as I realised that I like to switch between clean/dirty with the toggle, having the neck pickup volume down for the clean and bridge on full for the dirt.. so yeah I'd need 2 volumes, so if there are any good quality push/pull pots then that sorts it out and I wont need additional switches..
I think I remember Philly Q saying that PRS push/pull pots are good so I guess I could try to find some
of those.
You could try what gwEm did with his V90. Have a switch to bypass the volume pot, so you can dial in the clean with the volume, and hit bypass for full dirty sounds
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Hmm I think I'm going to have to have more than 1 knob anyway afterall as I realised that I like to switch between clean/dirty with the toggle, having the neck pickup volume down for the clean and bridge on full for the dirt.. so yeah I'd need 2 volumes, so if there are any good quality push/pull pots then that sorts it out and I wont need additional switches..
I think I remember Philly Q saying that PRS push/pull pots are good so I guess I could try to find some
of those.
You could try what gwEm did with his V90. Have a switch to bypass the volume pot, so you can dial in the clean with the volume, and hit bypass for full dirty sounds
and i'm still very pleased with how that works! i did a similar thing on my union jack steinberger and my jazzmaster.
the red and white steinbergers are wired with fixed values for bridge tone and volume, so the controls only work on the neck pickup - a similar sort of arrangement.
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thinks like this have been done. they can be fun but you always find yourself coming back to the same few sounds
Yes I expect you would but I have never come accross anything even close to this level of change so I expect there would be 5 or 6 sounds you would mostly use but the varaition would be far larger than the typical complex switching as the coil taps giving high low values combined with the single coil humbucker option would give a much greater scope for variation
So you may for example use high bridge humbucker, low neck humbucker, high bridge single coil, low neck/middle single coil, high humbucker neck middle.
Giving a much wider tonal and output change than typical complex systems which usually just give you more variations within the same small band (ie takes the extremes and allows 7 options imbetween instead of one or two) the objective here was to give the biggest scope.
i do suggest you try it sometime, i think everyone should at some point. you will be happy with the flexibility for a while, but it will come down to a situation of only using a few settings. i dont think its a bad thing - it can be a usefull way of finding the settings and techniques you like
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Hmm I think I'm going to have to have more than 1 knob anyway afterall as I realised that I like to switch between clean/dirty with the toggle, having the neck pickup volume down for the clean and bridge on full for the dirt.. so yeah I'd need 2 volumes, so if there are any good quality push/pull pots then that sorts it out and I wont need additional switches..
I think I remember Philly Q saying that PRS push/pull pots are good so I guess I could try to find some
of those.
You could try what gwEm did with his V90. Have a switch to bypass the volume pot, so you can dial in the clean with the volume, and hit bypass for full dirty sounds
this is uber cool!
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Great idea, I didnt think of that. So I could still have the splitting on a decent push/pull pot then clean/dirty on a mini toggle to the side :)
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it would be versatile but still look simple and uncluttered. works for me!
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Yeah simple and uncluttered is exactly the look I want with this guitar Wez. Just a simple but high quality rock/metal machine :) Can that wiring be done easily then, full on then split/parallel on the pot and the volume knob bypass on a seperate 2-way mini toggle?
Cant decide on a 12th fret inlay though, think it will need something to break up the woodiness a bit but dont know what I want.
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WV logo inlay on 12th fret? block, or crown? actually, the crown could be a nice idea - simple and classy.
its not really a volume pot bypass. assuming you wire the pickup to both ends of the pot, you just toggle the output between the pot wiper and the 'hot' end of the pot. you still have 500k still in the circuit with the toggle set for maximum. this minimises a sudden change in the treble.
on the union jack steinberger i used a DPDT switch and did the same with the tone.
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Ah I see, sort of makes sense to me!
I dunno about the inlay. Crown might be good since I want the WV logo on the headstock. Was thinking about the fleur de lis as on the Down - Nola album but the real meaning behind it isnt really that important to me and I might go off Down :P
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Maltese Cross - Knights Hospitaller emblem - simple design may suit
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Can that wiring be done easily then, full on then split/parallel on the pot and the volume knob bypass on a seperate 2-way mini toggle?
If you want splits its easy to split both pickups with one push/pull pot. If you want series/parallel you need a push/pull pot or mini switch for each pickup
the full power mini switch is straight forward
inlay - i do simple ones myself but i dont do enough inlay to think i am really great at it. if they get too complex i have decided to ship them out which obviously costs extra... i am putting in an order for many laser cut WV logos at some point (running out fast) so if i need to get a fretboard with something cut into it its worth thinking about now
here is the last batch of laser cut stuff, along with sample truss rod covers
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/logos.jpg)
from doug at parable guitars
http://www.parableguitars.com/
hmm, under construction - check out this instead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Rf7JomDDs
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I want one of those darker WV circles on my headstock! :P
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I want one of those darker WV circles on my headstock! :P
buy a wez guitar, then! :P
beautiful logo, simple and striking!
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buy a wez guitar, then! :P
I will have one by the end of the year if all goes to plan :P My parents have agreed to pay for some of it so long as I put down the deposit, as its my 21st birthday in November and they wanted to get me something special for it!
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inlays are real cool, how pricey is something like that?
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the price of inlay varies, mainly because the work involved varies a lot too, its more to do with complexity and originality than it is to do with size
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I was thinking something like this, probably a bit better/simpler though. Its meant to be a simplified sound wave (bit geeky :P) but it might just look like a squiggle when put onto a guitar..
(http://i39.tinypic.com/aahh7d.jpg)
Will have to have a think! Was thinking just two dots but looks a bit boring, maybe two x's or asterisks.
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inlayed silver wire maybe
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actually thinking about it, i reckon it would just look like a squiggle at the 12th.... imagine it running the length of the board though, a bit more coplex than it is now!!! that could be interesting
maybe record someone saying something fun, take a pic of the wave and get it blown up to fretboard size for the laser cutter.
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bump from the dead! As you may have seen, I didn't end up getting the WezV but instead a great Gibson SG Standard :D The current pickups are ok but a bit brittle and not as rich (or something) as BKPs when you get the amp a bit louder.
Reckon some tapped Warpigs would still be a good choice for me? It's not a muddy sounding guitar at all, very bright and articulate unplugged. The only worry I have is that maybe Warpigs will add almost too much girth and just end up making it sound like my Les Pauls. I want to keep that aggressive/raw SG edge, as it sounds awesome!
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As I recall, Warpigs are one of the most commonly recommended pickups for SGs. I have only limited experience with them, but I think they would be excellent - especially in a brightish SG.
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Warpigs love SG's and viceversa!!!
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Anyone got any clips of em doing some rock stuff as opposed to br00tal death metal?
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Anyone got any clips of em doing some rock stuff as opposed to br00tal death metal?
they are quite mids-y and would be good for hard rock with an open sounding amp i reckon
we already know of the great warpig clean tone
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They might be a bit too chunky sounding for you Tom, if you like that SG vibe you'll lose a lot of it with the high output Pigs.
Riff Raffs can't be beat in a SG in my experience.
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I do like the SG vibe and don't want to lose it..
I like the level of output and general kinda sound the Gibson pickups (490R and 498T) have, and would like to keep it similar. Only problem is that they're just not rich and clear enough when you get the amp up. Sounds a bit fake if you know what I mean.
Do Riff Raffs have the same kind of push/hotness that Mules have do you reckon?
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Yep, they do. Shame you're not more local, you could try my SG out.
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Dunno if this could help, but as for me, the Rebell Yell in the SG is one of a kind rich-and-ballsy-rock tone with just the right amount of agressivity and pushing mids to cut the mix with authority while staying very clear.
Amazing cleans, as well as superb lead tone here (without being too much saturated or colored). The RY IS a PAF-ish pickup that respect the SG vibe with, in addition that little "something else" which is indeed VERY exciting to play !
:twisted:
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I had a RY in my all mahogany LP for a while and couldn't really get on with it. Great for leads, but for rhythm it sounded too congested, I guess cos it has so many mids.
Just remembered the Crawlers exist as well.. an email will be sent off to Tim when the time comes for me to change pickups!
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as TF says, riff raffs are the same hotness as mules. i think you would enjoy them, they have a dry biting sort of tone, which is very cool - nice and airy. i find riff raffs impose much more character on the sound than mules - not necessarily a bad thing though but i think you can hear it in hunter and denim'n'leather's high gain clips
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I don't have clips but the 7 string A-Pigs that I have in my Blackmachine respond remarkably well to the volume control. You get a nice 'full strength PAF'-fy tone at around 1/3, pushing the volume up does interesting/disturbing things to the preamp!
I've never really been someone who rides on the volume much but I have started exploring that with the A-Pigs.
They are rather full fat, mind you, so will almost certainly change the character of the guitar a bit.
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Ive just had A5 pigs fitted in my sg special.
Best high output pups ive ever had ,they are massively heavy in the lows and mids but also perfectly clear under massive amounts of fuzz.... perfect for the references you describe.
In the run up to buying the pigs i had heard they could sound muddy because of the huge bass content but the lows are as hard as nails and very tight being in the sg.
IMO they work very very well with lower gained fuzztones (think first 3 sabbath albums) as opposed to high gain distortion.(although they sound good in this scenario too)
Their heaviness comes more from the eq curve as opposed to massive dc resistance.
I also think the tone graph for the pigs on the bk site is a little misleading in that it appears that they have a big roll off in the highs.I feel the roll off is more in the high mods which actually emphasises the highs a little.
The highs are very nice and round though.the bass and low mids are subterranean!!!! And as stated elsewhere they are really great for cleans.don't know if the same applies to c pigs though.