Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: indysmith on April 15, 2009, 02:48:34 PM
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Just been filming myself playing a bit and watching back I'm not too happy with my rhythm playing.
It's not that it's not in time - I have no problem being in time, it's just a lot looser than I'd like it to be.
What's a good song to learn/excercise to do to really tighten up my rhythm?
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Meshuggah - Bleed.
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judas priest - victim of changes
a surprisingly difficult riff
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I'm not much of a metaller... but I'll give em a go!
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Keep it sloppy and loose - "feel" is important!
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Meshuggah - Bleed.
Now that's just silly 8)
As a warm up to Bleed I'd try Disposable Heroes by Metallica.
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What about.. Into the Pit by Testament? I find it im-$%&#ing-possible cause i r newb.
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Any ACDC song!
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Rush - Distant Early Warning
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Any ACDC song!
+100 on that.
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Anything but ACDC songs!
Fixed.
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The rhythm playing in ACDC is excellent..
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Anything but ACDC songs!
Fixed.
:lol::lol:
Indeed.
When you've nailed disposable heroes, then bleed, try Nile - Burning pits of the duat :D
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try Nile - Burning pits of the duat :D
I'd have chosen "lashed to the slave stick" myself... :)
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try Nile - Burning pits of the duat :D
I'd have chosen "lashed to the slave stick" myself... :)
Also a good call.
So's Execration Text.
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Meshuggah - Bleed.
No more no less. If you want to get your rhythm perfect, this is the one.
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Some very good calls in here... now if I only had 10 mins to spare to pick up the guitar!! GAH!
Gig on Sunday though, that and the gig last Thursday should help my playing no end! I love the experience that playing live gives you, things seem a lot clearer and more simple to play after you've played them live.
Roo
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Guys, seriously. Those lightning speed metal songs won't make you a tight rhythm player.
Those songs make you play fast. There's plenty of guys who can play fast songs tight simply because they play as fast as they can.
It's the slower songs with basic drums and a couple of stops here and there that make you play tight.
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Meshuggah - Bleed.
No more no less. If you want to get your rhythm perfect, this is the one.
I had to change my palm mute technique to get that main riff going for more than 10 seconds
master of puppets, the mental 2nd riff is good for down picking
I'd say the best thing is to get the metronome out!!! (not that I do it as much as I mean to)
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Guys, seriously. Those lightning speed metal songs won't make you a tight rhythm player.
Those songs make you play fast. There's plenty of guys who can play fast songs tight simply because they play as fast as they can.
It's the slower songs with basic drums and a couple of stops here and there that make you play tight.
Sorry, but that is, as we say roung these parts, utter complete total barking raving donkeys bollocks.
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On a non metal front -
mediterranean sundance - Al Di Meola
The end section of Venice Queen - RHCP
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I dont recal the RHCPsong, but sundance - yes.
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I think all ...
-of James Brown's songs !!
-of tool song!
-Stray Cats!!!
this is only an example of a variety of songs to improve rhythm playing..
Oby
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Guys, seriously. Those lightning speed metal songs won't make you a tight rhythm player.
Those songs make you play fast. There's plenty of guys who can play fast songs tight simply because they play as fast as they can.
It's the slower songs with basic drums and a couple of stops here and there that make you play tight.
I agree with this, you can lose time easier as there is more space to fill with much less notes.
In a non stop song, I can go through fine. Give me a dramatic pause and I mess up
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Guys, seriously. Those lightning speed metal songs won't make you a tight rhythm player.
Those songs make you play fast. There's plenty of guys who can play fast songs tight simply because they play as fast as they can.
It's the slower songs with basic drums and a couple of stops here and there that make you play tight.
I agree with this, you can lose time easier as there is more space to fill with much less notes.
In a non stop song, I can go through fine. Give me a dramatic pause and I mess up
So your sense of timing means that fast playing needs only to simply be fast, and that slow is tighter?
No.
Tight is tight. It can be slow or fast, but, if its what you want to do, and some songs/musics need that energy, getting to the point where you can play fast and in time and playing tightly are inexfuckingtricable.
You may find slower harder. Fine.
But you try playing warpigs, with its slow pace and dramatic pauses, then try playing bleed and tell me which needs the tighter playing.
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try some pantera, got fast picking and some rests
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I just tried playing CFH and my picking hand is nackered haha. I'm useless at fast picking.
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Guys, seriously. Those lightning speed metal songs won't make you a tight rhythm player.
Those songs make you play fast. There's plenty of guys who can play fast songs tight simply because they play as fast as they can.
It's the slower songs with basic drums and a couple of stops here and there that make you play tight.
I agree with this, you can lose time easier as there is more space to fill with much less notes.
In a non stop song, I can go through fine. Give me a dramatic pause and I mess up
So your sense of timing means that fast playing needs only to simply be fast, and that slow is tighter?
No.
Tight is tight. It can be slow or fast, but, if its what you want to do, and some songs/musics need that energy, getting to the point where you can play fast and in time and playing tightly are inexfuckingtricable.
You may find slower harder. Fine.
But you try playing warpigs, with its slow pace and dramatic pauses, then try playing bleed and tell me which needs the tighter playing.
I'm with MDV here. It's just total bullshitee to say that fast metal doesn't help with tight playing, and doesn't require it. I'm not saying that slow tracks aren't helpful in their own right, but it's a very different thing. I would suggest that finding it difficult to keep in time with slow tracks is more an issue with musicality than with technical ability, whereas problems keeping in time with fast stuff (eg Bleed) is far more indicative of 'problems' with technical ability than with feel and musical intuition.
Do both. Everyone wins!
Another suggestion before you get to the likes of Bleed: Through The Never from Metallica's black album. Good starting point for rhythm work.
Roo
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Technical difficulties (gilbert)
i, Voyager (nevermore)
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Guys, seriously. Those lightning speed metal songs won't make you a tight rhythm player.
Those songs make you play fast. There's plenty of guys who can play fast songs tight simply because they play as fast as they can.
It's the slower songs with basic drums and a couple of stops here and there that make you play tight.
I agree with this, you can lose time easier as there is more space to fill with much less notes.
In a non stop song, I can go through fine. Give me a dramatic pause and I mess up
So your sense of timing means that fast playing needs only to simply be fast, and that slow is tighter?
No.
Tight is tight. It can be slow or fast, but, if its what you want to do, and some songs/musics need that energy, getting to the point where you can play fast and in time and playing tightly are inexfuckingtricable.
You may find slower harder. Fine.
But you try playing warpigs, with its slow pace and dramatic pauses, then try playing bleed and tell me which needs the tighter playing.
I'm with MDV here. It's just total bullshiteeeeeeeeee to say that fast metal doesn't help with tight playing, and doesn't require it. I'm not saying that slow tracks aren't helpful in their own right, but it's a very different thing. I would suggest that finding it difficult to keep in time with slow tracks is more an issue with musicality than with technical ability, whereas problems keeping in time with fast stuff (eg Bleed) is far more indicative of 'problems' with technical ability than with feel and musical intuition.
100% agreed. Keeping time slow is part clean playing, a part thats a minute fraction of that needed for fast playing, and greatest part being able to get into the groove of the track and feel the tempo, hear the beats that arent played in your head.
Playing fast needs you to feel the tempo just as much, and have clean, controlled technique far beyond that needed for slower paced stuff.
Of course do both, but saying that learning to play fast simply requires "being" fast, and not tight technique is trouser-suckingly, udder-fondlingly insane, and such words may only be spoken by someone who cant do it or has no interest in it and has accordingly found a way to dismiss it. If its not your thing, thats cool, its not a notes-per-second race, but the fact is you CANT get to play fast (no one simply '"is" fast) without tight technique.
Edit - I voyagers a good shout, but I think that much of the difficulty that track poses is getting your head and hands round the timings, not the technique needed (which is good technique, and not to be sniffed at, but there are far more technique-intensive songs out there, in rhythm). Unless you mean the solo, in which case, a thousand times yes, but thats....errrrr....not rhythm.
I see you I voyager and raise you Testament - legions of the dead.
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Come on ! The best (old) school to learn a tight metal playing motion is the 'Deth "Rust in Peace album" !!
Yes, try to learn "take no prisoners" :twisted: : you have all the fast palm mute + chunky chords you want to improve your rythm abilities !
After that all your metallica would be a piece of cake !
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I saw mark tremonti's DVD yesterday, on the rhythm section all he basically said was doing down picking to a metronome as fast as you can for as long as possible until you mess up
then do the same for tremelo picking
and no I don't like creed!!! or alter bridge for that matter, but he can really widdly woo with the best of those who specialise in the art of widdly woo
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i do think that playing fast metal doesnt really help your rhythm chops.. only your speed chops... you metalers should try playing some old school ska, its harder than it seems... its much more than just getting the chords in... and no distortion to hide behind.
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Thanks for your suggestions guys - I'm going to have a look and listen through and get some learning done now!
On the whole slow vs. fast rhythm playing, I find it hard to play tight both slowly and quickly, although errors are less pronounced in faster passages (as obviously there is less room to go wrong in, unless you hit the wrong note).
I didn't have metal playing in mind as a rhythm instructor, and I'm not much of a metaller, but a lot of you seem to think it's the way forward for polishing the chops so I'll have a go!
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i do think that playing fast metal doesnt really help your rhythm chops.. only your speed chops... you metalers should try playing some old school ska, its harder than it seems... its much more than just getting the chords in... and no distortion to hide behind.
Sorry, you appear to have 'Fender Tele' in your sig. Not a good start.
I never said that you should play ONLY fast metal. Quite the opposite, a broad range of techniques is always better than relying on one technique done well (eg just playing scales in solos would be tedium incarnate). What we ARE saying here is that fast metal helps rhythmic playing, and good technique in rhythm is required to play fast metal riffs well. Furthermore, getting a feel for the music and being able to play in a musical way (not just 'shredding' the strings as fast as you can and hoping that it's in time) is also very much a requirement for all rhythm guitarists, so practising tougher slow stuff is also very important, but requires a different but complementary and somewhat overlapping skill set.
Frankly anyone who says you should just practice on thing is a total knob end.
Roo
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If you can play bleed tightly all the way through, then you'll have all the rhythm chops you'll probably ever need.
I know I can't. :/
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The chug chug chug corner vs. the rest is really making this site tedious.
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The chug chug chug corner vs. the rest is really making this site tedious.
I'm advocating learning lots of different things. I can't speak for the others on here, but personally I think it's important to have a wide range of skills in the repertoire (and I certainly have a long way to go myself). That's certainly the impression I got from reading the other posts in this thread.
Roo
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The chug chug chug corner vs. the rest is really making this site tedious.
The funny thing is, all the chug chug people are generally very open minded to other types of music, while the anti chug seem to not be :/
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I strated out as a metal player. I became pretty good at playing metal riffs.
Later I joined a top 100 band playing guitar based music from the sixties through nineties. Less distortion and different rhythms. Those sixties, reggea and the odd ska tunes were an eye opener. I wasn't nearly as tight as I thought I was. I was fortunate enough we had an excellent, reliable drummer.
I've read some posts advising ska and James Brown stuff. That's also great to do. Little to hide behind and it's so important to know when NOT to play.
Any musician who is used to playing mostly fast songs has the tendency to speed up slow songs in my experience. Threre is a way to unlearn this. Play along to a relatively slow song. Once you got the tempo, cut the volume of the track and keep playing for 30 seconds, then put the volume back up and hear if you're still in line with the song.
I'm not saying anyone should stop playing fast songs. It builds stamina and trains the muscles you need for playing.
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I strated out as a metal player. I became pretty good at playing metal riffs.
Later I joined a top 100 band playing guitar based music from the sixties through nineties. Less distortion and different rhythms. Those sixties, reggea and the odd ska tunes were an eye opener. I wasn't nearly as tight as I thought I was. I was fortunate enough we had an excellent, reliable drummer.
I've read some posts advising ska and James Brown stuff. That's also great to do. Little to hide behind and it's so important to know when NOT to play.
Any musician who is used to playing mostly fast songs has the tendency to speed up slow songs in my experience. Threre is a way to unlearn this. Play along to a relatively slow song. Once you got the tempo, cut the volume of the track and keep playing for 30 seconds, then put the volume back up and hear if you're still in line with the song.
I'm not saying anyone should stop playing fast songs. It builds stamina and trains the muscles you need for playing.
Very helpful post, thank you.
Roo
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The chug chug chug corner vs. the rest is really making this site tedious.
It has in this topic anyway :? Especially as I don't think Indy is that keen on this?
Indy: My playing his been likened to yours, you must ofcourse be a bit better though, I am trying to do the same thing, and enjoying it playing slower things and trying to nail the timing on that.
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The chug chug chug corner vs. the rest is really making this site tedious.
The funny thing is, all the chug chug people are generally very open minded to other types of music, while the anti chug seem to not be :/
^+10 on that :wink:
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I don't disagree with that either and the blame is to be shared by all - lets be nice to one another PDT_002
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I strated out as a metal player. I became pretty good at playing metal riffs.
Later I joined a top 100 band playing guitar based music from the sixties through nineties. Less distortion and different rhythms. Those sixties, reggea and the odd ska tunes were an eye opener. I wasn't nearly as tight as I thought I was. I was fortunate enough we had an excellent, reliable drummer.
I've read some posts advising ska and James Brown stuff. That's also great to do. Little to hide behind and it's so important to know when NOT to play.
Any musician who is used to playing mostly fast songs has the tendency to speed up slow songs in my experience. Threre is a way to unlearn this. Play along to a relatively slow song. Once you got the tempo, cut the volume of the track and keep playing for 30 seconds, then put the volume back up and hear if you're still in line with the song.
I'm not saying anyone should stop playing fast songs. It builds stamina and trains the muscles you need for playing.
All good stuff.
But a rather different story than before ;)
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Not thát different. Most AC/DC songs aren't fast. If you listen to the rhythm guitar, you'll notice Malcolm never overplays anything and he knows when not to play. He also uses very little overdive and no reverb. Very little to hide behind. The only 'problem' is that AC/DC is mostly a straight rock n' roll rhythm. IMO Malcolm is the best rhythm guitarist out there.
Another great way to improve your rhythm playing is learning to play 'Where The Streets Have No Name'. If U2 doesn't appeal to you, this might not be a fun excersize. You'll also need a delay pedal for this. The trick with this song is that the tempo is determined by the delay and not the drummer or anyone else. Once you get the hang of it you can train drummers with this song too.
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IMO Malcolm is the best rhythm guitarist out there.
:lol:
I understand what you say but imho Malcom is more like a slow-metronome-machine than everything else.. (I am joking, he is a great guitarist :))
You speak about the U2 song, but there are so many around, like sultans of swing if you want.. (very hard to nail this exact rythm feeling too)
Anyway I guess we have to stay close to the question of this topic to make everyone agree :D
Just been filming myself playing a bit and watching back I'm not too happy with my rhythm playing.
It's not that it's not in time - I have no problem being in time, it's just a lot looser than I'd like it to be.
What's a good song to learn/excercise to do to really tighten up my rhythm?
I think the purpose here is more to concentrate on rythm mechanics rather than the being-on-time-feeling, which seems not to be the problem, if I understand well..
And rythm mechanics = exercices to be tight, fast if necessary BUT with a HIGHLY PRECISE motion, I think...
Take no prisoners from Megadeth is still one of the best rythm mechanics, to me
PDT_003
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And something you dont seem to realise is that most metal is played with a lot less gain than you'd expect, expecially live doubly so recorded, and very few effects. Maybe thats not how you did it, in which case I'd contend "yer doin it wrong!"
And even if it were, many things are harder with a lot of gain. String skipping and sweep picking for example. Muting becomes a nightmare.
Youre ever so politely and reasonably-lookingly backtracking mate.
This
Guys, seriously. Those lightning speed metal songs won't make you a tight rhythm player.
Those songs make you play fast. There's plenty of guys who can play fast songs tight simply because they play as fast as they can.
It's the slower songs with basic drums and a couple of stops here and there that make you play tight.
Para 1 - No. If you want to get them right, they will.
Para 2 - Yes they make you play fast, because they are fast. But all the fast players get to be fast because they are tight. A sloppy fast player is nothing but an offense to the ears.
Para 3 - yes, slow songs can help you play tightly. Of course they can. But that phrases it as 'just' slow songs, which is wrong.
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And you want to talk about hiding behind things and bring up the Edge and delay!?!? Oh dear.
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Hmmm... I saw this thread and some of the first replies earlier this morning, and I thought "interesting..." ... and it seems to have developed from there :lol:
I don't really know what sort of music you play Indy - so I feel uncomfortable suggesting anything for you... However, recently I've been using the Spotify website to play along with stuff that I feel like playing along with and would like to get better at.
Right at the moment this has been a lot of 60s pop music - it's what I grew up with and what formed my musical tastes, and it's very well covered on Spotify.
And I'm finding 60s pop songs extremely challenging! :lol: Although I grew up with it, it's not what I was listening to when I started playing in earnest - that was early NWOBHM and then quickly moved into blues, R&B, southern rock, etc.
What I want to say is this: different genres of music require very different types and feels of playing. And they don't all help each other :lol:
Eg. You are not going to be able to play the rhythm guitar parts on Marvin Gaye's "I Heard Through The Grapevine" with much authority if you've just spent several hours playing fast metal riffery, and vice versa.
It all depends what you're after.
If you want to become a good "session" guitarist that can cover any genre that the gig asks for, or if you want to "break the mould", as it were, then you need to try and master everything - and all of the various suggestions above are helpful. But if you want to play "swinging" rhythms, you'll need to be able to play "loose but tight" - so try to bear that in mind when you're practising more "mechanical" sounding genres, otherwise you'll lose your swing while you're mastering them, and it takes a while to get it back.
It really does depend on what you're after - I'd recommend doing what I do, play along (not note for note, I just try to "join in") with your favourite songs until it sounds like you're "in the band" :D
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Hmm I have been reading this thread and thought that it has got quite heated-all totally unnecessary . All I'd say is that there is probably little point in putting forward one type of music over another.I think that for me, learning something is all the more meaningful and enjoyable if the music turns you on in the first place. For me, I learned a lot from bands like Little Feat-both in terms of timing and dynamics but if you dislike Little Feat it isn't going to be very inspiring. Finding your version of Little Feat is the thing I would suggest-whatever that is for you.
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And you want to talk about hiding behind things and bring up the Edge and delay!?!? Oh dear.
Now you're nitpicking.
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Hmm I have been reading this thread and thought that it has got quite heated-all totally unnecessary . All I'd say is that there is probably little point in putting forward one type of music over another.I think that for me, learning something is all the more meaningful and enjoyable if the music turns you on in the first place. For me, I learned a lot from bands like Little Feat-both in terms of timing and dynamics but if you dislike Little Feat it isn't going to be very inspiring. Finding your version of Little Feat is the thing I would suggest-whatever that is for you.
I'm not promoting one music over another as being apriori superior. No one is. Thats been said explicitly. Listen and play whatever you enjoy. I'm simply contesting the erroneous statement that learning to play fast metal rhythms doesnt require one to be a tight player, and make you one in the process of learning them.
Further, its my experience that they are the hardest things to play tightly. The margin of error alowed in tempo and timing is merciless, and they require exremely consistent technique and control.
That doesnt mean to say that other musics dont, that would be mental, but they're up there, and the metal songs that have been suggested in here require an order of magnitude of tightness above the ACDC etc thats been forwarded over them.
It seems to me that a very few (2 by my count) of these folks are the ones being snobby and dismissive of different music, and I maintain that if this is purely a matter of the mechanics of playing thrash and death metal rhythm (unfortunately named genres but what can you do?) are among the best for it.
Others that are 'up there' include but are not limited to
Flamenco
Jazz
Prog rock
Classical
And frankly I'd put defacto 'rock' way down the bottom of the list with indie.
Again, just to stress, since this conflict was percieved by observers where none exists - this is not what music is better than another in an absolute sense, but what is better for developing tight rhythm technique. Its purely a mechanics thing, leaving subjective enjoyment of the songs out of it
Love them or hate them these are some of the most tightness-needing songs out there today.
Bleed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc98u-eGzlc
The persecuted wont forget
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-rySnvAvmo
The papyrus...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-rySnvAvmo
Finite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIMW0aHN0ks
Timberlake road
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkmwaPxksvs
:P
Okay, I've said all I'm going to say on the matter. So ner!
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And you want to talk about hiding behind things and bring up the Edge and delay!?!? Oh dear.
Now you're nitpicking.
No, just being sarky.
Its true though. The Edges rack is practically a member of U2 - it does half his playing for him.
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And you want to talk about hiding behind things and bring up the Edge and delay!?!? Oh dear.
Now you're nitpicking.
No, just being sarky.
Its true though. The Edges rack is practically a member of U2 - it does half his playing for him.
DAMNIT! I suppose I hadnt said all I was going to
And now I've fracking done it again!
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What I want to say is this: different genres of music require very different types and feels of playing. And they don't all help each other :lol:
Truth.
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My advice is this: Record yourself as often as possible making sure to DOUBLE TRACK THE RHYTHM PARTS. Play the music that you like and want to play, but play along with a metronome or a CD or backing track if your metronome isn't handy.
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My advice is this: Record yourself as often as possible making sure to DOUBLE TRACK THE RHYTHM PARTS. Play the music that you like and want to play, but play along with a metronome or a CD or backing track if your metronome isn't handy.
And the winner of the thread is......LAZY McDOUBLETRACK!!
C'mon down to see what you've won!
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What I want to say is this: different genres of music require very different types and feels of playing. And they don't all help each other :lol:
Truth.
also +1 :)
i stayed out of this thread because i thought it'd turn into a fight :lol:
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My advice is this: Record yourself as often as possible making sure to DOUBLE TRACK THE RHYTHM PARTS. Play the music that you like and want to play, but play along with a metronome or a CD or backing track if your metronome isn't handy.
An exceedingly good point which hadn't yet been raised! Picking any riff you like and doing 4 takes of it, getting it spot on each time, that should be a goal of any rhythm guitarist!
Roo
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My advice is this: Record yourself as often as possible making sure to DOUBLE TRACK THE RHYTHM PARTS. Play the music that you like and want to play, but play along with a metronome or a CD or backing track if your metronome isn't handy.
An exceedingly good point which hadn't yet been raised! Picking any riff you like and doing 4 takes of it, getting it spot on each time, that should be a goal of any rhythm guitarist!
Roo
Doublings great, but you get a lot more leeway with doubling and hard panned left/right. There can be a little space (10 to 20ms perhaps) between the notes and it still sounds tight.
Two tracks hard panned each side is 10 times harder again. The note strikes coming out of the same speaker, even with good monitors, obfuscates them and they turn to mud unless they're utterly and totally exactly in time (like, within 5ms of each other).
If you can double it, you've got it tight. If you can 4 track it you've got it nailed.
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And the winner of the thread is......LAZY McDOUBLETRACK!!
C'mon down to see what you've won!
:lol: I thank you.
It wasn't until I got into double tracking recordings that I realized how shite my right hand truly was/is. (the left ain't that great either!) :wallbash:
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Yep, recordings an eye-opener.
You learn to listen to yourself differently when just playing normally, too. Its a whole other realm of playing that guitarists should be forced through.
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If you want to play tight, then you need a precise internal clock, which only comes with lots of practice.
All styles of music need to be tight or it sounds like shitee. Why have we got a 5 page thread on this ffs?
Indy try some funk stuff thats all very tight.
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The persecuted wont forget
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-rySnvAvmo
Another good choice - Infact, Testament - Hell, what I did to improve my rhythm was to learn the whole of Demanufacture (Fear factory), but The New Order would be an even more demanding work out, and would deffo improve rhythm chops.
Infact, I've decided that's what I'm gunna spend the next few weeks doing.
Eerie Inhabitants here I come.
And what's even better is that Alex Skolnick's solos are absolutely AMAZING on that album, will help with my phrasing loads.
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Yeah, those are just what came to mind.
Damn near any song by
Testament
Metallica (Not kirk though!)
Slayer
Megadeth
Anthrax
Overkill
Fear factory
Strapping young lad
To name but a few that are great for tightness
Some tightness masterclass bands
Origin
Meshuggah
Gojira
Nile
Psycroptic
Necrophagist
Both lists go on and on, but there are hundreds of songs in there that vary from 'tight' to 'pushing the physical limits of tightness'.
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I've got a fear of quad tracking now!!! some days my hands are so out of sync and other days they are perfect
I always meant to learn more fear factory, some really good palm mute chugging patterns in there to practice
that bloke in necrophagist is class at sweeping and I really like his lead tone even if I don't like music that much
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I've got a fear of quad tracking now!!! some days my hands are so out of sync and other days they are perfect
I always meant to learn more fear factory, some really good palm mute chugging patterns in there to practice
that bloke in necrophagist is class at sweeping and I really like his lead tone even if I don't like music that much
I too fear 4-tracking, for very fast and complex stuff. Its evil....but when you do it its awesome :twisted:
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I've got a fear of quad tracking now!!! some days my hands are so out of sync and other days they are perfect
I always meant to learn more fear factory, some really good palm mute chugging patterns in there to practice
that bloke in necrophagist is class at sweeping and I really like his lead tone even if I don't like music that much
I too fear 4-tracking, for very fast and complex stuff. Its evil....but when you do it its awesome :twisted:
I want to hear you record some quad track jeff loomis sweeping solos then :P
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I only ever double track, I get way too frustrated doing more than 2 takes, and those are usually bad enough :lol:
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I've got a fear of quad tracking now!!! some days my hands are so out of sync and other days they are perfect
I always meant to learn more fear factory, some really good palm mute chugging patterns in there to practice
that bloke in necrophagist is class at sweeping and I really like his lead tone even if I don't like music that much
I too fear 4-tracking, for very fast and complex stuff. Its evil....but when you do it its awesome :twisted:
I want to hear you record some quad track jeff loomis sweeping solos then :P
What brought this indignant demand on?
Fine, whatever.
Its not loomis soloing, but this has the following
---------------------------------------------------
-------------------4------6--------------8-------
-------------------------------------------------
----------------------5------7--------------9--
----------2h3h5------6------8-6h7h9-----10
-2h3h5-----------------------------------------
Drop B, 245bpm
rest of the riff is
-------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
------3p2p0-----------------------------
--------------------5p3p2---------------
--------------------5p3p2----------------
-000---------000--------000-6p5p3---
Oh, and
--------------------------------------
---6p5p3---------------------------
-----------5p3p2--------------------
-0-----------------5p3p2----------
-0------------------------------------
-0--------------------------3p1p0--
Those 3 riffs are mixed up in the intro (remembering what I did in subsequent takes wasnt easy!)
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13664.0
When you can reproduce that recording, you get the right to challenge me, biatch :twisted: ;) (well, the recording aint very good, but I'm a n00b at that anyway).
Before any gaylords jump in and say theres all the gain in the world in there to hide behind - the tone used was an open, low gain crunch sound, such that one might get from a TSL chanel 2 with the EQ level and the gain on 3 or 4. Maybe 5. Or a screamer with the gain on the lead channel on 3 or a powerball with the gain on channel 3 on 1.5 to 2.
If you want to know the rest, ask. It gets harder ;)
I'm reworking an older song that now has a sweeping section thats a bit more in the loomis style. Dont know if it will be 4-tracked yet, I'm trying to nail a sound that gives adequate thickness and clairty with double tracking.
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There is far more to rhythm playing than being super-tight, though that is a great skill to have.
I do subscribe to the idea that playing tight and slow is much more difficult than fast - seriously, try playing some of your favourite songs at 30 or 40% of their actual speed to a metronome (that's something I practise every day).
That's not to say that nailing Bleed like Meshuggah do is easy, but I do find it easier to stay tight with than, say, Stengah.
Lots of tracks to try your hand at, and they'll all develop your playing in different ways. A few off the top of my head:
John Coltrane's Giant Steps
Jimi Hendrix - Little Wing
The Police - Message in a Bottle
Paul Gilbert - Rusty Boat
Van Halen - You Really Got Me
Freak Kitchen - Taste My Fist
Extreme - Get the Funk Out
Frank Zappa - The Black Page Pt.2 (if that doesn't improve your knowledge of rhythms then I don't know what will)
Anything by The Rolling Stones, AC/DC, etc
Any big band jazz
Much of that really won't sound great if you play it super-clinically "on-the-beat" tight. Groove is an element missing from alot of players' rhythm playing.
Then to satisfy the metal bunch, try playing the end breakdown from Gojira's Remembrance - from 3:35 onwards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeJ3jlQ4dFc, SikTh's Bland Street Bloom, Blotted Science's Laser Lobotomy, and learn Megadeth's Rust in Peace album from end to end.
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Musical notation has rests as well as notes of different time values. So they're just as important, say for instance, in stop start dynamics. Which all adds to a tight sound.
Lots of musical styles can be tight, has no one mentioned Jazz yet, why the emphasis on Metal?
Listen to Jeff Beck and his band play the tune 'Scatterbrain' That's tight.
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Musical notation has rests as well as notes of different time values. So they're just as important, say for instance, in stop start dynamics. Which all adds to a tight sound.
Lots of musical styles can be tight, has no one mentioned Jazz yet, why the emphasis on Metal?
Listen to Jeff Beck and his band play the tune 'Scatterbrain' That's tight.
I mentioned jazz :P
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Musical notation has rests as well as notes of different time values. So they're just as important, say for instance, in stop start dynamics. Which all adds to a tight sound.
Lots of musical styles can be tight, has no one mentioned Jazz yet, why the emphasis on Metal?
Listen to Jeff Beck and his band play the tune 'Scatterbrain' That's tight.
I mentioned jazz :P
I glazed over pages ago :P
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Musical notation has rests as well as notes of different time values. So they're just as important, say for instance, in stop start dynamics. Which all adds to a tight sound.
Lots of musical styles can be tight, has no one mentioned Jazz yet, why the emphasis on Metal?
Listen to Jeff Beck and his band play the tune 'Scatterbrain' That's tight.
I mentioned jazz :P
I glazed over pages ago :P
And Nolly mentioned jazz immediately above your post :D
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Musical notation has rests as well as notes of different time values. So they're just as important, say for instance, in stop start dynamics. Which all adds to a tight sound.
Lots of musical styles can be tight, has no one mentioned Jazz yet, why the emphasis on Metal?
Listen to Jeff Beck and his band play the tune 'Scatterbrain' That's tight.
I mentioned jazz :P
I glazed over pages ago :P
And Nolly mentioned jazz immediately above your post :D
Yeah I know he did but that was an amended post :P
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This thread didn't really recommend anything for Indy in the end did it!
Indy if your serious about tightening up your rhythm playing then I could pass on these fantastic funk lessons that Elliot sent to me from Guitar Techniques. They are on a .pdf and .mp3 so you get the tabs and the sound clips plus backing tracks. Let me know and I'll try and upload them to a file server. They are all about rhythm and are a real work out. They're all written by Jason Sidwell
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http://www.megaupload.com/?d=AVRNRW2N (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=AVRNRW2N)
One has a lot of Curtis Mayfield, Nile Rodgers, Micheal Jackson's David Williams & James Brown's Jimmy Nolan. The other is Earth Wind & Fire based stuff. This rhythm playing has to be spot on or it sounds like cr@p so you can learn a lot from this. :D
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5GEOWNJ4
(http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5GEOWNJ4)
Thanks to Elliot who sent this to me. :D
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Thanks a load Johnny!! That's my Sunday taken care of!
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Thanks a load Johnny!! That's my Sunday taken care of!
No worrys Indy :D
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Just because I know nothing I think you should practice both parts of dueling banjos and play them against each other recorded - lots of timed puases and slows at the begining and moving on nicely to some slightly faster picking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzae_SqbmDE&feature=related
Of course you may need a Boss BE3 Banjo Emulator
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Johnny - following our conversation at the Jam I got an autowah (a cheap 2nd hand Ibanez AW7) - Even with basic James Brown type stuff it does funk wah absolutely perfectly - in fact even with my limited guitar skill I could now work playing for porn films!
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Johnny - following our conversation at the Jam I got an autowah (a cheap 2nd hand Ibanez AW7) - Even with basic James Brown type stuff it does funk wah absolutely perfectly - in fact even with my limited guitar skill I could now work playing for porn films!
:lol: Perhaps I need an autowah...
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This thread didn't really recommend anything for Indy in the end did it!
bah! i stand by my 'victim of changes' suggestion
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Johnny - following our conversation at the Jam I got an autowah (a cheap 2nd hand Ibanez AW7) - Even with basic James Brown type stuff it does funk wah absolutely perfectly - in fact even with my limited guitar skill I could now work playing for porn films!
Fanatastic! Is it a lot like that Issac Hayes, Shaft sound? Great idea for a new job! :D
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I found this topic very dense an interesting. After 6 pages of recommendations with more than 50 songs suggested as good exercices (I listen to all of them), I thought the job had been done to answer the OP...until I read that :
This thread didn't really recommend anything for Indy in the end did it!
So Maybe 6 pages weren't enough.... :rock: In fact I also have noticed that among those 50 songs, about 35 are metal songs...Have those 35 songs been considered as bad suggestions ? (without maybe even heard them first ?).
To me this just demonstrate how much true is that post below ! :lol:
The chug chug chug corner vs. the rest is really making this site tedious.
The funny thing is, all the chug chug people are generally very open minded to other types of music, while the anti chug seem to not be :/
Anyway...this never-ending-tiresome-debate may be off topic....So back to topic ! :shock: :shock:
What's a good song to learn/excercise to do to really tighten up my rhythm?
It's not that it's not in time - I have no problem being in time, it's just a lot looser than I'd like it to be.
The philosophical ideas developped here earlier like « playing slow and tight is harder than playing fast » or « concentrate only on feeling that the most important », .... aren't to me an appropriate answer to the question. Of course it is more difficult to stay on time and groovy when you play slow because the more you have to wait in between the notes the more you multiply the risks of not being in time when you play the notes. But that wasn't the question asked here AS THERE IS NO PROBLEM BEING IN TIME. :roll:
The question appears to me to be more simple because just physical and can be turned in : "How to develop stamina and dexterity, in order to move both hands with more precise movements, (more tight, less loose), NO MATTER WHAT TEMPO (FAST OR SLOW)?"
If I largely agree (as said here) that you must experiment different kind of music / playing because they do help each other to raise your level, I don't suscribe to the fact that Rock, reggae, ska, funk are the best choices to answer the question of this topic too, because they do not cover all the technique you need to be tight. :| As an example (the poorest one suggested here, imo), you can play your A / D / G highway to hell chords all day long, you will at the end play in time and groovy but you wouldn't have done ANY fingers and wrist exercices on both right and left hands in order to train your muscles to developp that tight motion.
COME ON !!!!! :non:
To me (as some suggested before) the best styles to get a precise motion with both hands, in any context are : metal, Flamenco, classical, jazz, fusion, folklore/country and other styles in the veins of thoses techniques. :japon:
So as you see the choice is pretty large ! It is not possible to mention everything here but the ones who spring to mind are :
Classical : pretty much anything. Start with a fugue from Bach, or some latin master pieces : so many scores ! ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mZvdGAGlOo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WwlDIExKqQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y8l4KijBA0&feature=PlayList&p=04CE6D6A7192B6FB&index=25
Flamenco : any Paco de Lucia Album, but try also Tomatito, Vicente Amigo....(lot of choice but my favorite are soleas.. !)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o8vszqVL2U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_qzLH3FgxM&feature=related
any kind of Jazz / fusion / country : a mix of Django Reinhart, Franck Gambale, Allan Holdsworth and Chet Atkins !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMUqHU4nvZ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wTVLIZaxMk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg3N1ARs2VE
Metal : the 35 songs mentionned here, like the mighty "rust in peace" album from Megadeth (where very few distorsion is used, resulting in a crystal clear sound).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTaULwIUJQ4
and this one is a good cover to help you concentrate on the guitar works (I hope it will be more demonstrative)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au4b8lDyFAk&feature=related
I think many metal songs have been suggested here because the good metal guitarists have mastered HIGHLY tight rythm and lead mechanics that allow them to play pretty much anything...And that's what they do because they are able to adapt their playing to other styles, right down to classical music, and their curiosity bring them to experiment it, successfully. So if you have an aversion with metal songs, then have look at some extra works from metal players, in order to see how much their tight playing is efficient (just very few examples, among the tons available) :
Patrick Ronda's vivaldi tribute : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RggrHIlIlpc
Jason Becker playing Paganinni : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmoRGrMBfIM&NR=1
Chris Broderick playing Legnani : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSchoITeht0&feature=related
(and now the same guy, playing just a lick, just to have A CLOSE UP ON WHAT A TIGHT PLAYING MOTION IS....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJDvtzZWGM8)
And last but not least here is a video on how pratice rythm and being tight, fast (if you want) and groovy . I hope everybody will agree on this one (sorry it is still a shredder... :huge:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCojcP_6AkI&feature=related
Hope this will help anyway, thanks to the ones who read it from the beginning to the end ! :tin:]
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I thought it was well established that Indy didn't want metal suggestions - why is that so hard to understand?
As to classical or flamenco being good for tightening up rhythm playing - This is true - but as Classical and Flamenco are essentially fingerstyle acoustic based techniques that involve years of dedication to even get near good it is a totally otiose and unhelpful suggestion for a general electric guitarist. Especially ones who don't believe that shredding up and down a scale at a 200bpm or playing a heavily edited violin caprice by Paganinni is on a par with what those styles demand. The same can be said about jazz - Jazz is not a practice style to get good at something else - it is a way of being in itself.
I note you dismiss all styles but your own - Funk for example - But this is a tight rhythm style that anyone can pick up some extra rhythym skills from relatively quickly, so why dis it?
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Reading the time of your post I think, that you obviously didn't read my post and listen to the attached clips...Can't blame you for that I knew my post was very long... :lol: So if you stay eyes closed and ears closed you can easily understand why I give some credit to noodleplugerine's post...Anyway...
I thought it was well established that Indy didn't want metal suggestions - why is that so hard to understand?
If Indy doesn't like metal he doesn't have to experiment such a bad experience, which is why MANY other Styles and guitarists have been suggested !
Classical and Flamenco are essentially fingerstyle acoustic based techniques that involve years of dedication to even get near good it is a totally otiose and unhelpful suggestion for a general electric guitarist.
Hum...I am both classical and electric guitarist and I think, if you'd like to improve and play different techniques is it worth to be experienced.
Especially ones who don't believe that shredding up and down a scale at a 200bpm or playing a heavily edited violin caprice by Paganinni is on a par with what those styles demand.
Maybe they are edited a lot, but but indeed very few are able to try the experience, with decent result...You are still focusing on speed as being a bad thing....don't know what to say more on that... :roll:
The same can be said about jazz - Jazz is not a practice style to get good at something else - it is a way of being in itself.
One of the most absolute nonsense thing ever read ! :? The richness of jazz allow you to go everywhere, Man ! 8)
I note you dismiss all styles but your own
Absolutely false. I didn't listed my styles here. Just the one that may be the best help to answer the request.
I true that I am into classical and metal, but I am quite even more on rock and blues. :D
I note you dismiss all styles but your own - Funk for example - But this is a tight rhythm style that anyone can pick up some extra rhythym skills from relatively quickly, so why dis it?
Well..what I said at the beginning !
If I largely agree (as said here) that you must experiment different kind of music / playing because they do help each other to raise your level, I don't suscribe to the fact that Rock, reggae, ska, funk are the best choices to answer the question of this topic too, because they do not cover all the technique you need to be tight.
I downloaded the funk files from Johnny Mac. I do not think they would give the expected result. They will give you a specific right hand technique mainly based on playing tight chords with a good wrist motion. But what about the MANY other right AND left hand techniques that maybe more helpful to build tightness in your playing :?:
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:lol: Have you been smoking crack or what?
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:lol: Thanks for the input...In fact I was tempted to ask you exactely the same question when I read you here :
This thread didn't really recommend anything for Indy in the end did it!
Indy if your serious about tightening up your rhythm playing then I could pass on these fantastic funk lessons that Elliot sent to me from Guitar Techniques. They are on a .pdf and .mp3 so you get the tabs and the sound clips plus backing tracks. Let me know and I'll try and upload them to a file server. They are all about rhythm and are a real work out. They're all written by Jason Sidwell
:haha:
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I don't understand what your getting at nor do I care.
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In the spirit of peace and love - I should add that I really admire the skills of tight metal guitarists, even if I can't stand what they play. Now if they could play like Julian Bream and Paco de Lucia I would admire them more.
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Now if they could play like Julian Bream and Paco de Lucia I would admire them more.
Why would you think this would give you a better appreciation of their playing, as musicians ?
Do the Funk guitarists you admire make you happier because you think they will have more success on that kind of *sterile* demonstration ?
Seriously ? :roll:
Anyway...Different views and differents guitarists help to build the richness of this Topic !
Quite not easy to open the debate guys, but finally we agree about the fact that metal guitarists are among the tightest guitarists so much so that.....you can admit that their works are good exercices to build tightness, no matter if you like what they play or not (and as for me I told you where my musical interests are).
You also noticed that other styles were mentionned to answer the question if Indy is not keen on metal. As for the Funk, I wasn't saying that it is a bad call. Just not the best choice imho, or not the only one choice (as you guys may think when you said the first 5 pages didn't recommend anything).
PDT_015
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Your a f*cking nutter! :o
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In the spirit of peace and love - I should add that I really admire the skills of tight metal guitarists, even if I can't stand what they play. Now if they could play like Julian Bream and Paco de Lucia I would admire them more.
But then they would be bream and paco immitators, and as varied as metal is, that wouldnt be metal anymore.
So...youre saying you'd admire (us) metal guitarists if we werent metal guitarists!
The cheek!!
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:D
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I'm mostly from the rock school of playing so will give you my opinions based on my experiences. One of the hardest riffs to get the rhythm correct on I found was "jet to jet" by alcatrazz its based on spotlight kid by Rainbow, in fact sounds the same to me.
A guy who in my opinion is one of the best rhythm players called Nuno Bettencourt who plays with the band extreme, its funk heavy rock type stuff very dynamic and tight. Get The Funk Out is a pretty cool tune. Anything by Nuno is creative and dynamic.
The first Dio album "Holy Diver" is full of great rhythm playing, I like "caught in the middle", "holy Diver" and "rainbow in the dark" a good starting point and fun to play.
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I haven't dipped into this topic for quite a while - seems to have developed nicely :lol:
I can't even remember wot I said earlier on...
How's it going Indy? Has that rhythm playing improved yet? :D
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How's it going Indy? Has that rhythm playing improved yet? :D
Indy's been pretty quiet. Probably wishing he never started this thread! :lol:
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Well I did recommend Into the Pit by Testament which:
1. Isn't that low of a tuning
2. Isn't that complicated so he could learn it fast, but practice on his rhythm like he asked
3. It isn't that distasteful of a song.
Oh well.
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This thread is total bollocks!
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But ever more amusing :P
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But ever more amusing :P
It is in a convoluted confusing way :lol:
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Check out songs that Bruce Welch and Ric Parfitt play on - fine rhythm players.
And David Knopfler seemed pretty good as well - not sure why he left after the first album...
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I haven't dipped into this topic for quite a while - seems to have developed nicely :lol:
I can't even remember wot I said earlier on...
How's it going Indy? Has that rhythm playing improved yet? :D
:lol: Don't worry Andy, your first posts here were great quality...and if you don't remember them, oh well... nevermind, anyway ! :wink:
And David Knopfler seemed pretty good as well - not sure why he left after the first album...
If you mean the first Dire Straits album, I thought he was in the band until the third release, if memory doesn't fail for me too...Nevertheless you're right, Dire Straits first releases include some masterpieces with stunning rythm parts from him (and his brother!), but I never really listen to his solo albums though....