Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Ian Price on April 27, 2009, 10:19:56 PM
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Hello all,
As mentioned on previous threads I'm trying to sell my 70's tele. Some guy from eBay has been asking loads of questions about it, to which I have responded. He has now mailed me back questioning the validity of the guitar i.e. it's a bitsa. He has offered £900 which I laughed at and turned down flat. His questions, my answers and his responses were as follows:
Q) What stamps and colours are on the bottom of the pups?
A) No stamps that I can see, bridge is base is copper, neck base is black.
R) it sounds like one or both the pick ups have been changed at some point. All form '64 - the late 70's had grey bottomed pick ups and by the late 60's they all have a ink stamp for dating purposes. There is no exception to this rule.
Q) What are the stamps on the pots?
A) Pots = 015479 1meg Aud 3047349 (the tone and volume pots looked like they have the same number - the volume pot will be difficult to see without disconnecting it and removing it)
R) One of the Pots is most definately original
Other info I have given - and responses are:
I) Switch = CRL1452
R) I cant tell anything from the Switch as this was an industry standard from the 60's through the 80's so without the switch serial im unable to work out if its original to the guitar.
I) Neck serial number = 13014214, neck plate number = 615232
R) Neck, The Neck plate and At least one pot all have different serial numbers with a gap of approx 5 years.
After offering £900 and me rejecting it he sent me the following "There are tons of ways to date things precisely but im not going to bore either of us doing it any longer via email so ill simply just take the chance and buy the thing. I made an offer which youve obviously refused just a moment ago. You can rely on a quick payment from me but i need to know what the lowest prcatical price is you would be happy with?. Considering there was a 1965 Tele that was mostly original apart from a new routing etc that sold the other day for £1900 it shows you what non original or sceptically non original guitars go for"
Before I could respond to this mail I received another saying "I seem to have put you in a right huff?. My next offer is £1400, hopefully this will bring you out yourself. Lets keep emotions out of this, i'm trying to spend money with you"
I must admit that I'm not an authority on Fender info so does what this guy is saying check out? The tone of the mails is annoying me slightly although it is difficult to sense what tone it is meant in! Thoughts would be appreciated.
Cheers and apologies for the long thread!
Ian.
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I don't know about all the Fender specs, but he's trying to bully you into selling.
Which suggests (IMO) that your guitar is legit and he's after a bargain so he can sell it on at a profit.
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I just wouldn't deal with him. If you sell it to him he will probably get a huff about something.
I would let it find its own price at auction
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he's trying to bully you into selling.
Which suggests (IMO) that your guitar is legit and he's after a bargain so he can sell it on at a profit.
That's what I was thinking Philly - to jump from £900 to £1400 without waiting for a response from me suggests this. It' a very strange tactic though - maybe to try to make me think I'd be getting a good deal as he would take it off of my hands fo a 'good' price.
I've also done a bit of reading up on the date stamping and can't find anything that says this was used without exception. In fact it's quite the opposite for teles as far as I can see.
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^ What Phil says.
He's anxious not to lose the purchase and has upped his offer £500 just like that. Smells fishy, so I'd play him for a bit.
Turn down the £1400, saying you've got other people enquiring at the moment, and see what he says................
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He sounds like an utter c--kbag. I'd go with what Dave says.
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I just wouldn't deal with him. If you sell it to him he will probably get a huff about something.
I would let it find its own price at auction
I don't think I will on principle now. I fracking hate people that arse me about. Just make an offer and be done with it!
He has since sent a few more mails. One that proves the dating system was used without exception. It's a JPEG with the base of about 10 tele bridge pups and 4 P bass pups. And another that says "Just to let you know, ive been a Fender collector since '86. Worked in a Music shop for 12 years and gigged professionally most of my adult life. Theres not much now at this stage in life that i dont know about Fender. If theres absolutely anything you want to know just ask."
Hmmm. I really hope this guy isn't a BKP forum member as he is being a complete (insert word of choice)!
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He may be right about the pickups etc, after all it is a 30 year old guitar - all my guitars have changed parts, although I try to put them back to original condition when I sell them. Lots of people don't, they've already sold the old parts.
Regardless of that, he wouldn't be making these offers if he didn't think he was on to a good thing.
This is one of the reasons I don't like owning vintage guitars - unless you really know your stuff, pushy buyers are always going to try to "blind you with science". I got totally ripped off when I sold my SG Special, and the worst part was I knew it was happening! :oops:
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This is one of the reasons I don't like owning vintage guitars - unless you really know your stuff, pushy buyers are always going to try to "blind you with science". I got totally ripped off when I sold my SG Special, and the worst part was I knew it was happening! :oops:
I'm starting to feel that way. New stuff all the way for me now!
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Personally, I'd tell him to "$%&# off"
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Personally, I'd tell him to "$%&# off"
:lol: Can I borrow your accent though. It would sound so much better :lol:
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Are you gonna put it up for bids with a reserve then?
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i *think* i remember a guitar and bass article about fender pickups from a few months back, and i *think* i remember reading that the backs of the pickups changed in the 70s- or the pickups got worse, certainly, at some point (and i imagine the backs changed as this made them easier to distinguish).
Found it! Guitar and Bass Magazine, Feb 2009 (vol 20 No 3): according to that Phil Harris guy (who's their vintage guy, I think) in 1964 the pickups had a greeny-grey base, which changed to grey in 1971. Apparently the quality of the pickups got worse in 1975-76, when they changed to flat polepieces. Unfortunately, it doesn't mention the colour of the base. And of course, you have to trust Phil Harris's words- but i'd trust him more than that guy who clearly wants to buy your guitar.
i agree with philly, in other words. Do you have that issue, philly? If so, maybe you could check it to make sure I haven't missed anything, I'm not exactly a vintage gearhead... :lol:
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Are you gonna put it up for bids with a reserve then?
Nah - reserve fees are a total rip off IMO. I'm not brave enough to start it on 1p either!
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Found it! Guitar and Bass Magazine, Feb 2009 (vol 20 No 3): according to that Phil Harris guy (who's their vintage guy, I think) in 1964 the pickups had a greeny-grey base, which changed to grey in 1971. Apparently the quality of the pickups got worse in 1975-76, when they changed to flat polepieces. Unfortunately, it doesn't mention the colour of the base. And of course, you have to trust Phil Harris's words- but i'd trust him more than that guy who clearly wants to buy your guitar.
i agree with philly, in other words. Do you have that issue, philly? If so, maybe you could check it to make sure I haven't missed anything, I'm not exactly a vintage gearhead... :lol:
Exactly what you said, Dave. I take some of Phil Harris's comments with a pinch of salt, he's a total vintage snob, but I'm sure they're factually correct.
That was all specifically about Strat pickups, though, I don't know if the same necessarily applies to Teles.
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Are you gonna put it up for bids with a reserve then?
Nah - reserve fees are a total rip off IMO. I'm not brave enough to start it on 1p either!
Agreed about the reserve fees.
I did really well selling some Fender parts on 99p starts last week, but I don't think I'd risk it on a valuable guitar.
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Exactly what you said, Dave. I take some of Phil Harris's comments with a pinch of salt, he's a total vintage snob, but I'm sure they're factually correct.
That was all specifically about Strat pickups, though, I don't know if the same necessarily applies to Teles.
ah, touche, i did miss that. :oops: Thanks for pointing that out :)
are you getting a bit more adventurous with those 99p starts? I thought you didn't used to do those... :lol:
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I always wondered on Ebay how they stopped mates bidding on things with no reserve to not let it go too cheap is that more expensive than the reserve fee ? I guess it might be but only if they won and if they are only bidding up to the reserve then they are unlikely to win?
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are you getting a bit more adventurous with those 99p starts? I thought you didn't used to do those... :lol:
I usually - in cowardly fashion - put the starting price as the bare minimum I'd accept, but since these were necks and bodies I had absolutely no idea - they could go for £50 or they could go for £350. I just thought what the hell, try 99p and see what happens. :lol:
People seem to get carried away buying parts - a few weeks ago I sold a '99 Strat for £415, then I sell a Strat neck for £300. Silly really.
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I always wondered on Ebay how they stopped mates bidding on things with no reserve to not let it go too cheap is that more expensive than the reserve fee ? I guess it might be but only if they won and if they are only bidding up to the reserve then they are unlikely to win?
I haven't tried it, but I don't think the "get your mates to bid" tactic works. It doesn't make anyone pay more than they were prepared to pay anyway.
My friend is always getting her husband to bid on her sales and he ends up "winning" most of them so she has to re-list. Time wasted, and more eBay fees. :roll:
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This guy is hustler.
He's trying to buy guitars for the vintage parts for cheap. When he has enough of them he puts together a 'period correct' guitar and sells it as vintage for a shiteeload of money. Or he'll sell the parts for alot of money.
This guy is in it for the money.
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Here is the resource for Fender dating : http://www.provide.net/~cfh/fender.html
Save the 1 for the year stamp (are you sure its not a 7?) - It looks like a pretty genuine stamp.
As to pickups -
here is a 1974 bridge pickup - sounds like the same description for your guitar:
http://www.rareguitarparts.com/store/mcart.php?ID=804
Here is a 1973 neck pickup - Note it uses black not grey flatwork:
http://www.eddievegas.com/store/details/1973-ORIG-FENDER-TELE-NECK-PICKUP-7.66k.php
People who use the phrase 'no exception to this rule' when discussing Fender (especially the CBS 'chuck it all together era') are either misinformed or hustlers - Grey flatwork is for Strats not Teles.
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He's clearly after something. I reckon your Tele is spot on correct Ian, and he's trying to get it for a cheap price and make money on it.....
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Cheers for the responses guys. I'm not even sure I wouls want to sell to him now given his emails to me - even if he offered the asking price. Stupid I know but I just have a bit of dislike to him at the moment!
I have mailed him back to say that his offer of £1400 is too low for the guitar and that I could, if I wanted to, sell the parts seperately and make more than that.
As I said before it's new guitars all the way for me now - can't be doing with this hustling business!
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Cheers for the responses guys. I'm not even sure I wouls want to sell to him now given his emails to me - even if he offered the asking price. Stupid I know but I just have a bit of dislike to him at the moment!
I have mailed him back to say that his offer of £1400 is too low for the guitar and that I could, if I wanted to, sell the parts seperately and make more than that.
As I said before it's new guitars all the way for me now - can't be doing with this hustling business!
Simple fact is : he WANTS your guitar
You have the power and the control
I know you want to find a seller but unless you need money urgently to pay a bill you have the upper hand
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I always wondered on Ebay how they stopped mates bidding on things with no reserve to not let it go too cheap is that more expensive than the reserve fee ? I guess it might be but only if they won and if they are only bidding up to the reserve then they are unlikely to win?
I haven't tried it, but I don't think the "get your mates to bid" tactic works. It doesn't make anyone pay more than they were prepared to pay anyway.
My friend is always getting her husband to bid on her sales and he ends up "winning" most of them so she has to re-list. Time wasted, and more eBay fees. :roll:
Ebay come down very heavily on self bidding / shil bidding
An ex girlfriend of mine had several accounts and was bumping her own sales (stupid cow)
Ebay got suspicious, and permanently shut all her accounts - one of the things they did was An IP search to see which accounts might be being used from that household over the previous 6 months
Unfortunately I had checked my own ebay from her place and they banned me as well
I had a real fight to get my accounts restored - as she was an ex and her conduct had been far from good I had no qualms about dropping her in it (and clearing my own accounts)
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Found it! Guitar and Bass Magazine, Feb 2009 (vol 20 No 3): according to that Phil Harris guy (who's their vintage guy, I think) in 1964 the pickups had a greeny-grey base, which changed to grey in 1971. Apparently the quality of the pickups got worse in 1975-76, when they changed to flat polepieces. Unfortunately, it doesn't mention the colour of the base. And of course, you have to trust Phil Harris's words- but i'd trust him more than that guy who clearly wants to buy your guitar.
i agree with philly, in other words. Do you have that issue, philly? If so, maybe you could check it to make sure I haven't missed anything, I'm not exactly a vintage gearhead... :lol:
Exactly what you said, Dave. I take some of Phil Harris's comments with a pinch of salt, he's a total vintage snob, but I'm sure they're factually correct.
That was all specifically about Strat pickups, though, I don't know if the same necessarily applies to Teles.
The Strat pickups did change the wire they used when they went to the grey bobbin pickups in the mid 60s. The change in the wire insulation meant that the pickups could not be potted.
For what its worth I think that the earlier 60s pickups sound better than the latter 60s.
All the companies selling repro Strat pickups are selling versions of the 50s and early 60s pickups.
In 74/5 Strat pickups were made with non-staggered pole pieces, although whether this had that much effect on the sound compared with the generally poor quality of the Strats Fender were making in the late 70s I don't know.
Don't really know that much about vintage Tele pickups.
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Cheers for the responses guys. I'm not even sure I wouls want to sell to him now given his emails to me - even if he offered the asking price. Stupid I know but I just have a bit of dislike to him at the moment!
I have mailed him back to say that his offer of £1400 is too low for the guitar and that I could, if I wanted to, sell the parts seperately and make more than that.
As I said before it's new guitars all the way for me now - can't be doing with this hustling business!
I would not sell to this guy.
If you want the best price for your guitar on ebay you should photograph is in as much detail as possible, including under the pickguard, removing the neck and photographing the end of the neck (to show code on the neck) and neck pocket in the body (inportant for identifying refins), the tuners, the front of the headstock etc. Also weigh the guitar. You should also offer to ship worldwide as 70s Teles are more expensive in the US than they are here now.
This may sound excessive, however there are tons of lash-ups on eBay, and if you want someone to fork out top money for your guitar its only reasonable to give them as much info as possible.
Consider the reverse situation: would you buy a guitar "unseen" on eBay for the amount of cash you are asking for it?
Regarding the "issues" unless the guitar is mint, then I don't really see changed pots as a huge issue (although if it had changed pots it wouldn't be mint!!).
Fender started using 1 M pots in Teles from the end of the 60s, which I think makes a Tele too bright, so changing the pots to 250 K is very common.
Changed pickups as an issue, however this can be reversed, so whilst if they are changed this will reduce the value of the guitar, but be the cost of finding a replacement at most. Equally wrong guard etc.
Irreversible modification are the real devaluers of vintage guitars: routing, refininshes, overspray, extra string trees, locking trems etc.
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Cheers JPF - the listing had quite a few photos of the guitar included in which are the neck on it's own (with stamp), internal shots of the pots, scratch plate removed so you can see colour fading, pups, close up of the tuners etc.
I definitely woudn't buy unless I had seen detailed photos etc. I just think hte guy is a bit of a chancer considering he has stated that he saw a 65 tele go for £1900 and all that it had done to it was some routing. As you say - this is a big devaluer so I don't really get the connection/relevance with the point he is trying to make.
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Cheers JPF - the listing had quite a few photos of the guitar included in which are the neck on it's own (with stamp), internal shots of the pots, scratch plate removed so you can see colour fading, pups, close up of the tuners etc.
I definitely woudn't buy unless I had seen detailed photos etc. I just think hte guy is a bit of a chancer considering he has stated that he saw a 65 tele go for £1900 and all that it had done to it was some routing. As you say - this is a big devaluer so I don't really get the connection/relevance with the point he is trying to make.
Regarding the 1965 Tele with routing going for £1900, this is meaningless.
At one end of the spectrum I've seen Teles with a small rout in the front pickup position to accomodate a Start pickup (which I would class a minor issue), to a "rout" for humbucker and active electronics that looks like it was done with a screwdriver! And on a slab board '61.
The assumption here of course is that this is the only issue with the guitar, and with out seeing it you just don't know. At that price I doubt it, however sometimes stuff is badly listed on eBay.
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At one end of the spectrum I've seen Teles with a small rout in the front pickup position to accomodate a Start pickup (which I would class a minor issue), to a "rout" for humbucker and active electronics that looks like it was done with a screwdriver! And on a slab board '61.
Outrageous!
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Ian - only point that I can add by way of observation is that the price for the 1970's Teles are somewhat variable - it is very difficult to set the price - the communication from your 'buyer' does not sound very convincing but regarding the price very tough to say. What I would say about eBay is that if you can come to an agreement on price with a buyer that you can trust then you should pull the listing "Item No Longer For Sale" and sell it outside eBay. Makes a big difference in terms of the £££ that you will realise from the sale. How you decide if you can 'trust' them is another matter!
Mike
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I usually - in cowardly fashion - put the starting price as the bare minimum I'd accept, but since these were necks and bodies I had absolutely no idea - they could go for £50 or they could go for £350. I just thought what the hell, try 99p and see what happens. :lol:
People seem to get carried away buying parts - a few weeks ago I sold a '99 Strat for £415, then I sell a Strat neck for £300. Silly really.
:lol:
people always seem to get carried away, in any of the auctions I'm ever bidding on or watching. starting low seems to stimulate it, it's like the people bidding don't realise that if they bid on it when it's low and the price shoots up, they have to pay the ending price... :? :lol:
thanks for posting better info than I did, elliot and jpf, at least that's me off the hook with my rudimentary knowledge of vintage guitars :lol:
I agree with everyone else, as i've already said- he sounds like a hustler.
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Guys - cheers for all the info so far. Elliot - the stuff from your response was very useful and interesting. I've sent it on to the guy who sent challenged the originality of my guitar - will be interesting to see what he comes back with. I have no doubt that as he is such an expert there will be something wrong with it.
I've since had an offer of £1600 (I'll be looking for a tad more though) from another ebayer so I've turned down the hustlers offer flat - just waiting to see what he comes back with.
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and within a few minutes here is his response:
"Absolutely not, no thanks. I'm not going to spend day's telling you fact's that youve no intention of listening to just so you can try and eek out a few more pounds. I'll go elsewhere thanks, good luck with your sale but it's not for me after that response!"
What a complete cretin. I felt the need to send another mail back to him - a bit childish of me but I did bite!
"Okey dokey. It's up to you. I don't think you needed to be rude though - I was merely challenging the info you sent me. As a seller I am entitled to set a price, check up on details if someone challenges my listing (and I did obviously listen) and respond when well versed people and websites state differently. Apologies if I wasn't supposed to do this."
Hohum.
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word. i love how a lot of people act like you're being awful by wanting to get a better price (for you), when they're blatantly trying to do exactly the same (for themselves). Not to mention, his accusing you of being rude is the icing on the cake, he's been rude throughout.
perhaps if he's such an expert he should get dictionary or grammar book, too.
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What a complete arse, I hope he ends up buying a complete fake for £900!
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^ me too!!!!
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Aw, that's a real shame - and it was gonna be Roo's first tele as well :lol:
Seriously though, been watching this one with interest, and I was thinking "he don't sound all that bad, the rest of us are reading too much into it... why not deal with him if you can reach a price?" - but not with that last reply from him :lol:
You're well shot of him - just imagine what would have happened if you had reached a price and he got the guitar:
"I'm sorry, I've counted the number of strands in the hookup wire between the tone and volume - this indicates 1972, I can accept that they might have still been using old stock at the time, but the number of strands between the volume and the output jack indicate 1983 or possibly 1984 - what's that all about? I think we need to negotiate some money back..."
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^ definitely, if you suspect something is wrong, you're better to walk away before you make the deal.