Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: bamboofrog on May 01, 2009, 10:18:28 PM

Title: Which les paul?
Post by: bamboofrog on May 01, 2009, 10:18:28 PM
Hi all

I have been hankering for a les paul guitar but I am not sure what to go for. I have been looking at lower end Tokai's and Vintage's range but non of them feel right so I will probably have to spend a bit more.

The obvious choice is a Gibson Studio which I may be able to get on budget with a bit of luck. I have a budget of about £500 and any suggestions would be appreciated of makes and models would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: TheIronBeast on May 01, 2009, 10:27:59 PM
The Gibson LP Studio or LP Junior are pretty good choices. I've played both and they were both pretty decent guitars. The Epiphone LP's that start around £400 are pretty good guitars too.

I have heard really good things about Agile LP's as well but haven't actually played one, they're probably worth checking out too.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Lu_B on May 01, 2009, 10:38:47 PM
Which Tokai's have you been looking at?

A secondhand MIJ Tokai would be well within your £500 budget and would be more than a match for the Studio.

I'm obviously biased as I have one :lol:  Picked mine up for £300 which was a bargain for a MIJ but you should be able to pick one up for a shade under £400.

Wouldn't bother with the newer MIC Tokai's but the MIK Tokais are usually solid instruments.

Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: bamboofrog on May 01, 2009, 10:50:03 PM
It was the made in china Tokai's that I tried, I will keep my eyes open for a MIJ Tokai. I have heard good things about a lot of the MIJ les paul style guitars such as Greco, Burny and Edwards.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: the prince of shred on May 01, 2009, 11:01:10 PM
agile,
les paul menace? (i have one and can say i think its a very nice guitar, nicer than some of the more expensives gibsons....)
MIJ tokias
edwards,
all gooduns.....
but same old advice... play everything!!!
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: dave_mc on May 01, 2009, 11:23:47 PM

A secondhand MIJ Tokai would be well within your £500 budget and would be more than a match for the Studio.


+1 (or other MIJ). :)
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Philly Q on May 01, 2009, 11:54:19 PM
I have heard good things about a lot of the MIJ les paul style guitars such as Greco, Burny and Edwards.

Add Orville by Gibson to that list, I think they probably have the most vintage vibe of all the Japanese "copies".
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Lu_B on May 02, 2009, 12:51:27 AM
It was the made in china Tokai's that I tried, I will keep my eyes open for a MIJ Tokai. I have heard good things about a lot of the MIJ les paul style guitars such as Greco, Burny and Edwards.

Pay a visit to www.tokaiforum.com (http://www.tokaiforum.com) the guys over there are really friendly and knowledgeable, not just on Tokais but on other MIJ guitars.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Dubn 57 Goldtop on May 02, 2009, 06:28:52 AM
http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Les-Paul-Studio-Electric-Guitar?sku=517030

the faded cherry, plain wood finish would be your best bet. they new for $900, that's dollars

just save man, it'll be so worth it. trust me
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: horsehead on May 02, 2009, 08:05:37 AM
+2 for tokai, but Orvilles are lovely as well
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: bamboofrog on May 02, 2009, 08:39:45 AM
Cheers All

How about these
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=330326362010#ht_500wt_1182 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=330326362010#ht_500wt_1182)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=230339734195#ht_500wt_1182 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=230339734195#ht_500wt_1182)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=130303466463#ht_1101wt_1167 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=130303466463#ht_1101wt_1167)



Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Lu_B on May 02, 2009, 12:42:36 PM
They are both good guitars in my opinion.

I would guess the specs are as follows:-

Blue - Flamed sycamore laminated top, mahogany back and neck with a rosewood board.  Probably  somewhere in the region £500-600 new, I would pay somewhere around the £300 mark taking into account the damage and the colour - its not everybodys cuppa tea if you want to sell it.

The Cherry Burst - Similar sort of spec as the other one but the top is quilted maple.  Probably somewhere in the region of £800-900 new.  I think his £450 buy it now is quite reasonable - he's already upgraded the pups, which add little to the value but a nice addition if your the lucky buyer.  And it comes with a case

Others knocking about

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TOKAI-Love-Rock-Les-Paul-LP-Electric-Guitar_W0QQitemZ190304270230QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item190304270230&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TOKAI-Love-Rock-Les-Paul-LP-Electric-Guitar_W0QQitemZ190304270230QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item190304270230&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50)

This one never retailed at £1000 its a Korean model (3 screws on the truss cover are the first give away).  A sturdy guitar but not a bargain at £399

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tokai-Love-Rock-Sunburst-MIJ_W0QQitemZ130303290326QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item130303290326&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tokai-Love-Rock-Sunburst-MIJ_W0QQitemZ130303290326QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item130303290326&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50)

A bit overpriced in my opinion (I think its been on a couple of times) but a very nice guitar

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TOKAI-LS65-2002_W0QQitemZ270382080856QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item270382080856&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50][url]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TOKAI-LS65-2002_W0QQitemZ270382080856QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item270382080856&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50 (http://[url)[/url]

Looks alright, lower model originally than a LS85 (don't get hung up on the model numbers as Tokai change them frequently as they're based on the selling price of the guitar - a LS60 became a LS70 and is now LS80 - no difference in spec) need to ask about the serial number though.  I don't think the scratch plate is original but could be wrong.

If you find something your interested in post it on the Tokai forum's Ebay sightings section and the guys will chime in and tell you all about it and most importantly whether its fake or not.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: dave_mc on May 02, 2009, 04:59:11 PM

If you find something your interested in post it on the Tokai forum's Ebay sightings section and the guys will chime in and tell you all about it and most importantly whether its fake or not.


+1, that's the easiest thing to do. I can spot the obvious fakes, or when a seller is trying to pass off a korean or chinese one as japanese (3-screw truss rod covers are on the Korean/Chinese ones, 2-screw on the MIJ), but they can spot the more subtle things a lot better than I can. :)
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: _tom_ on May 02, 2009, 05:00:46 PM
I dont know if any MIJ ones are under £500 but if my Pearl is anything to go by, Japanese is definitely the way to go. Feels so much nicer than my Epiphone.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: TheIronBeast on May 02, 2009, 05:09:50 PM
How do Tokai LP's compare to Gibsons? The music stores closest to me don't stock them so haven't actually tried one out before.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: indysmith on May 02, 2009, 07:35:10 PM
How do Tokai LP's compare to Gibsons? The music stores closest to me don't stock them so haven't actually tried one out before.
Pretttttty similar, lol. A lot more consistant quality-wise though, although recently Gibson seems to be on the up and all their guitars(don't quote me on this - PMT salesperson told me) are getting a particularly tasty PLEK setup.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Lu_B on May 02, 2009, 07:46:29 PM
How do Tokai LP's compare to Gibsons? The music stores closest to me don't stock them so haven't actually tried one out before.

I've had both - and in my opinion a MIJ Tokai is as good as if not better than a Gibson.

I was originally seduced by the Gibson name and bought one because it sounded better with its Burstbuckers V than the Tokai I was comparing it to.  But it should have been it was double the price @ £1450 but I'd convinced myself I wanted a Gibson.  

This was many years ago before I got into pickup swapping, in hindsight I should have bought the Tokai and changed the pickups and been about £600 better off.

I got rid of the Gibson because later on I discovered the top 5 frets had been cut back too much and everytime I played a D chord the E string had a habit of falling off the fretboard.  The solution was a re-fret which I didn't want to pay for on virtually unplayed guitar and I'd fallen out of love with it.  The guy who bought it had a different playing style and he didn't have this problem.

I recently picked up a 2003 MIJ Tokai LP years old and virtually unmarked for £300 - the pickups didn't float my boat, so they were swapped out.  So all told I've spent about £380 - which is probably less than half the price of buying a used Gibson.

I say to people if you are hell bent on buying a Gibson for the name and kudos, do so and you'll be really happy - I was.  But if you want all the characteristics of a Gibson Les Paul without the price tag try a Tokai - it might not impress your mates but your bank balance will love you.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Lu_B on May 02, 2009, 07:54:43 PM
Pretttttty similar, lol. A lot more consistant quality-wise though, although recently Gibson seems to be on the up and all their guitars(don't quote me on this - PMT salesperson told me) are getting a particularly tasty PLEK setup.

Up on all their prices too a Standard is now nearly £1900 :!:

Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: TheIronBeast on May 02, 2009, 08:06:15 PM
How do Tokai LP's compare to Gibsons? The music stores closest to me don't stock them so haven't actually tried one out before.

I've had both - and in my opinion a MIJ Tokai is as good as if not better than a Gibson.

I was originally seduced by the Gibson name and bought one because it sounded better with its Burstbuckers V than the Tokai I was comparing it to.  But it should have been it was double the price @ £1450 but I'd convinced myself I wanted a Gibson.  

This was many years ago before I got into pickup swapping, in hindsight I should have bought the Tokai and changed the pickups and been about £600 better off.

I got rid of the Gibson because later on I discovered the top 5 frets had been cut back too much and everytime I played a D chord the E string had a habit of falling off the fretboard.  The solution was a re-fret which I didn't want to pay for on virtually unplayed guitar and I'd fallen out of love with it.  The guy who bought it had a different playing style and he didn't have this problem.

I recently picked up a 2003 MIJ Tokai LP years old and virtually unmarked for £300 - the pickups didn't float my boat, so they were swapped out.  So all told I've spent about £380 - which is probably less than half the price of buying a used Gibson.

I say to people if you are hell bent on buying a Gibson for the name and kudos, do so and you'll be really happy - I was.  But if you want all the characteristics of a Gibson Les Paul without the price tag try a Tokai - it might not impress your mates but your bank balance will love you.


Thanks! I've heard a lot of good things about the Tokai LP's. I have a 2007 Gibson LP Standard and it plays fantasticly, I love it to bits, but I would love to check out the Tokai's some day.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Jonesy76 on May 02, 2009, 10:23:00 PM
MIJ Les Pauls are great fun instruments if you're on a budget.

Orvilles by Gibsons are fabulous if you're looking for Gibson quality but at a Japanese price.

But if it simply has to be a Gibson then my best bet is to go for a Studio, as at least then you have the Gibson name on the headstock and you have a close approximation to the actual Gibson Les Paul and the tone associated. 

Everyone loves to beat up Gibson but sadly I'm not one.  I love my Gibsons and won't have anything said about them.  Fender lovers seem to forget how many utter pigs of Stratocasters are out there, even some of the Custom Shop stuff, but then everyone seems to forget that because Fenders do tend to be a lot cheaper than factory Gibsons let alone the Custom Shop Gibsons.  PRS make stunning guitars, and you never seem to find a bad one sounding or playing one..........but then I've never found one with that indefineable mojo that you get from a good Gibson.  Gibson may make some cr@p guitars (so do Fender), and they may well be expensive (So are PRS) but if you're willing to play some - and not just buy the prettiest one you find - you may well find a guitar that you end up passing over to your kids.

My only advice though..........
Buy a cheap guitar now that looks like a Les Paul (my first step was an Epiphone) and then get saving for the real thing.  Save and save and save, and then go looking for a secondhand Custom Shop Gibson of some variation.  The Custom Shop guitars get the pick of the wood that comes into the Gibson factory, and the in-house staff always take the best stuff for use on the top line of guitars........good wood = good guitar.  I managed to pick up an awesome Custom Shop Les Paul Custom '68 last year for £1600, which is less than the price of a brand new Factory Standard, and comes with 57 Classics on board too which are the best Gibson humbuckers out there.

A good Gibson Les Paul plays like nothing else and just has that certain special something that you'll never get from a MIJ Les Paul (and that is from someone who had a very gorgeous Orville by Gibson, a Tokai, and an Edwards).............
Plus...........(and he dons his flameproof jacket now).........

You don't have to explain to every non guitarist how your Japanese copy of a Gibson is actually getter than an actual Gibson
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: dave_mc on May 02, 2009, 10:32:09 PM
^ :lol:

How do Tokai LP's compare to Gibsons? The music stores closest to me don't stock them so haven't actually tried one out before.

depends on the model of both brands, really. MIJ quality control is really good, so generally they're very well made. The lower end Tokai MIJ models will give the gibson standard range a run for its money. Mid-range ones will be similar if not nicer than Gibson's standard range. I assume the high-end tokais are awesome, but i haven't been able to try them, unfortunately.


I say to people if you are hell bent on buying a Gibson for the name and kudos, do so and you'll be really happy - I was.  But if you want all the characteristics of a Gibson Les Paul without the price tag try a Tokai - it might not impress your mates but your bank balance will love you.


+1. if you won't be happy unless it has gibson on the headstock, then buy a gibson. if you just want a good guitar at a good price, buy a tokai. it's also worth bearing in mind that going MIJ isn't necessarily cheaping out- there are Tokais as expensive, if not more so, than gibsons, ditto things like navigator, bacchus etc. And those high-end navigators and Tokais etc. are using things like brazilian rosewood and honduran mahogany. Gibson isn't, even on the custom shop models, as far as I'm aware.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: bamboofrog on May 02, 2009, 10:59:51 PM
Cheers guys thanks for all the help and advice, I have seen a nice S/H Gibson Studio on ebay which I am going to try out tomorrow, I will let you know how I get on. :D
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Lu_B on May 02, 2009, 11:08:45 PM
There's cr@p guitars out there from all manufacturers none of them are immune and there's hidden gems from the most unlikely sources.

If you can play as many brands as possible and go with your gut, there's no right or wrong its just down to personal preference in the end.

Me, I'm tight with my cash and want best value for my £££ and I don't give a monkeys what anybody thinks of my stuff, I like it and that's all I care about.  

I've been laughed at many a time for playing a Squier but what folks don't realise is it an 80's MIJ Squier loaded with Seymour Duncan SSL-1's and is little gem.  They soon stop laughing when they hear it and I tell them it only cost me £100 shipped with a hardcase :lol:

Enjoy the search for your LP and good luck for tomorrow.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: dheim on May 03, 2009, 10:27:56 AM
noone laughs at my epi...  :twisted:

http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16251.0;attach=5758;image
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: TheIronBeast on May 03, 2009, 10:31:29 AM
noone laughs at my epi...  :twisted:

http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16251.0;attach=5758;image

That is a really nice Epiphone! I don't think I've seenn one as nice as that before actually. What BKP's do you have in there?
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: bamboofrog on May 03, 2009, 04:29:47 PM
Well I tried it, liked it, bought it. Patience was never on of my virtues :lol:
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/bamboofrog/DSCF2465.jpg)
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/bamboofrog/DSCF2466.jpg)
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/bamboofrog/DSCF2468.jpg)
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/bamboofrog/DSCF2469.jpg)

from the serial number it is a 2000 model it has grover tuners and slightly smaller inlays, not so keen on this bit but didn't even think about it till I was looking at some other studio's. Started to panic that I had picked up a fake, but from a bit of research it would appear that the studios during 1999-2000 were like this.

Plays really well nice sound, looks like it could do with a good clean up, will take it off to have it set up and give it some tlc.

Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: dheim on May 03, 2009, 04:30:55 PM
noone laughs at my epi...  :twisted:

http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16251.0;attach=5758;image

That is a really nice Epiphone! I don't think I've seenn one as nice as that before actually. What BKP's do you have in there?

it's a LesPaul Studio Gothic, pickups are a Warpig in bridge and a Pig90 in neck...
it took some day of playing to smoothen upper frets and keyboard, that came out of the factory with a strange rough feel, but in the end it's a very nice guitar, i never had any issue with it.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: indysmith on May 03, 2009, 05:12:29 PM
noone laughs at my epi...  :twisted:
It's because it would beat them up!
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: indysmith on May 03, 2009, 05:15:12 PM
Congrats on the new guitar bamboofrog - i love the smaller inlays! They're part of what give the studio models their character!
How does she play?
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: bamboofrog on May 03, 2009, 05:45:07 PM
Cheers indy

She play's really nicely (shame I don't :)) will take a bit of getting used to. I have been playing a strat for quite a while and it feels really different. Started thinking did I do the right thing etc etc blah blah, but I think it just needs a good clean and setup and a bit of settling in time (and maybe some BKPs :lol:)
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: AndyR on May 03, 2009, 06:21:20 PM
Looks good :D

Don't worry about "doing the right thing" though :lol:

Just give it some time and see how she goes... Whenever I pick up my gibson-type guitars (I'm strat and tele biased), it's always "YUK!!" until I've been playing for an or so, then I love it.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: TheIronBeast on May 03, 2009, 06:30:05 PM
Congrats on the new guitar, very nice LP Studio! I've always loved the Studio models Gibson make, they are good quality guitars for what you pay. I'll bet it'll sound even nicer with some BKP's  :wink:
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: shobet on May 03, 2009, 06:32:31 PM
Quality, glad you found something you like. As a recent member of the Les Paul club, if it's anything like mine you'll not be able to put it down!
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: dave_mc on May 03, 2009, 07:52:15 PM
very nice :)
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Matt77 on May 03, 2009, 08:03:56 PM
I don't think you can go wrong with them.
I've had mine 14 years and counting
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Jonesy76 on May 04, 2009, 10:35:09 AM
Nice Studio..........I'm sure the both of you will be very happy together!
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: marantz1300 on May 11, 2009, 12:12:30 AM
The best thing about having Gibson on your headstock is you will always have a buyer if you want to sell. Nice Studio.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: bamboofrog on May 12, 2009, 10:47:21 PM
Funny you should say that as I have just put it on ebay. Just didn't feel like the right guitar. Think I was swayed by the name. I did however pick up a 1997 epiphone SG of ebay which is absolutely great.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: indysmith on May 12, 2009, 11:13:13 PM
 :o Oh you do get through 'em, bamboofrog ;)
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: bamboofrog on May 12, 2009, 11:25:08 PM
Yeah, I think my wife is at the end of her patience, ah well, I think I will have to have a guitar made then It should be right. Best stop buying and get saving :lol:
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Lu_B on May 13, 2009, 07:55:53 PM
Just didn't feel like the right guitar.

I've done that plenty of times, convinced myself I wanted something on paper and when it arrived it didn't seem right - Tokai Rick, PRS SE, Tokai ES175, Yamaha Pacifica 12 string, Yamaha APX, Washburn J6, Yairi FY84 and at least 3 strats.  These are only the ones I remember! 

But at least by buying secondhand I was able to re-coup my outlay - keeps the other half happy.
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Bradock PI on May 13, 2009, 08:02:30 PM
Hey why didn't you like the Yairi what did you get instead acoustic wise ?
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Lu_B on May 14, 2009, 03:13:03 PM
Hey why didn't you like the Yairi what did you get instead acoustic wise ?

The problem with the Yairi was it was an impulse buy and I didn't really need it.

I already have a Gordon Giltrap Signature Yairi from the late 90's thats the mutts nuts - burled mahogany back & sides, cedar top, ebony board.  Sounds bright, warm, airy and I really love it.  The only thing I've played that comes close was a Doyle Dykes Taylor at nearly £3k

So I saw another Yairi on the interweb - rosewood back & sides, spruce top, ebony board.  Thought it would be as good as my GG and sound a little different in a good way.

So I parted with my cash, it arrived, I cleaned it up (was filthy)and restrung it but this one didn't have the sparkle I was used to.  Don't get me wrong it was a good but not as good as the GG!  So I flipped it within two weeks as I kew I just wouldn't play it.

Taught me a valuable lesson - don't buy an accoustic unless you play it first, they're not all the same!
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Bradock PI on May 14, 2009, 10:15:23 PM
Cool I always liked Fylde acoustics not heard one I don't like yet different sounds from the models but all good and the guitarists I went with all think they are a dream to play. But my wife has a really nice alvarez MD350 and I contemplated buying an FY84 since the alvarez is so good. (half the price of the entry fylde - well until the Yen went up)
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Lu_B on May 14, 2009, 10:31:04 PM
Cool I always liked Fylde acoustics not heard one I don't like yet different sounds from the models but all good and the guitarists I went with all think they are a dream to play. But my wife has a really nice alvarez MD350 and I contemplated buying an FY84 since the alvarez is so good. (half the price of the entry fylde - well until the Yen went up)

I would love a Fylde Alchemist one of my dread guitars but I don't have £2300 floating round:(  Maybe one day!
Title: Re: Which les paul?
Post by: Henk on May 17, 2009, 08:23:20 PM
Early 199x Gibson LP standard is the most value for money if you ask me. Try a couple of those before you decide.