Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: MDV on May 07, 2009, 10:17:34 AM
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$%&# them
$%&# them right in the ear.
I've had enough of their tinny boomy shallow fake sounding shitee
All my future recording is to be done with an amp at low volume with careless mic placement first, reamped at higher volume and blood-sweat and tears finding the best sound later.
Amps + Mics = what the Music God intended
Amen
That will be all.
Edit - No one mention the Axe-FX! (I'm looking at you, hunter!).
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Edit - No one mention the Axe-FX! (I'm looking at you, hunter!).
Well...oh. Shutting up. PDT_043
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I'm with you Mark. Death to all modellers!!!!!!
:gib: :chain: :snipe: :plasma: :rip: :rock: :trans: :bio: :flak: :enforcer: :impact: :shock:
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On the whole I'd have to agree. For any proper recordings a nice mic and a nice amp and a nice room are essential, but that doesn't stop modellers from being super-useful and relatively cheap tools for getting ideas down quick...
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Amplitube 2 is so good for the sheer convenience. I actually sort of like the tones I get out of it more than anything I've recorded from my amp, because my mic technique is pretty bad and I never really get to crank the amp.
I think the modeller sound is great for the djent style of metal as well, heard loads of great tones from Bulb/Nolly/some other people on HCAF.
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On the whole I'd have to agree. For any proper recordings a nice mic and a nice amp and a nice room are essential, but that doesn't stop modellers from being super-useful and relatively cheap tools for getting ideas down quick...
Nah. You dont need the "nice" stuff. Maybe mic, but even then - You need to understand your stuff. Your amp/s, your speakers, your mic/s, your room, and be able to figure out the best places to put your cab/amp and the best way to place that mic with that speaker in that room.
People rely too much on gear to record and not enough on expertise. Someone that knows what they're doing will get better results with £1000 worth of gear than someone that doesnt will with £100'000.
Not that I'm an expert. But I know enough to know how little I know ;)
Amp + cab + mics + room/space needs you to know what youre doing with each part of that chain. It needs you to think and experiment. Do so and it will reward you.
Modellers just need you to dial them in, and they still sound like a pale shadow of the real thing.
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Oh, and with real recording it also pays, and is great fun, to get a bit resourcefull getting the sound you want.
Want some chorus that doesnt sound fake? Calculate the distance needed for the delay time you want and put a mic that distance away from the main mic. Want more high end attack? Record in a bathroom and let the tiles do the work. Too much 'slap' in there? Put a duvet on one of the walls. Want different reverbs? Record in different rooms.
If putting a mic inside a sock in a goldfish bowl on the roof is what you have to do, thats what you do.
I miss that shitee as much as anything else. When youre recording properly you arent just using your gear, youre using your environment. Its 1000% more fun, rewarding and real-sounding.
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I'd say it's all in the fingers :lol:
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I'd say it's all in the fingers :lol:
:lol:
Well now I feel silly - what am I gonna do with 15,000 in gear if all I need are fingers???
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I've had enough of their tinny boomy shallow fake sounding shiteeee
All my future recording is to be done with an amp at low volume with careless mic placement first, reamped at higher volume and blood-sweat and tears finding the best sound later.
Amps + Mics = what the Music God intended
Amen
That will be all.
Edit - No one mention the Axe-FX! (I'm looking at you, hunter!).
Hehe your such a tone snob, modellers are THE BEST when you simply need a swiss army knife of tones to help sort out ideas and just try something else, no its definitely not something you'd take ON STAGE, but for chillin in YO GARAGE, its pretty damn cost efficiant, especially when you blew all your money on your Legra and can't afford anything else :oops: gettin a budget overdrive, distortion, fuzz, delay, whammy, wah harmonizer, looper flanger, chorus, reverb, univibe...the list goes on, for 150 bones is $%&#in steal, my Rp255 rules all....mwhahahaha
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I'm no tone snob
If I was a tone snob I'd have entitled the thread "Digital" and in it stated how I'm done with it cos it sounds shite and I'm going back to tape ;)
Modellers have a tonne of stuff in them, tis true, but yer confusing quantity and quality, mate :P
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I think it depends on what you're after. I play in 2 bands at the moment, my old band have a female singer and we go for more pop/rock stuff, playing covers of Pink, Katy Perry, and lots of weird stuff too, where I need many many different tones to fill the space, as we are only a D/B/G setup, the other band is a 6 piece (D/B/V/K/G/G) that mainly requires metal guitars, with some effects here and there.
I can do it all with my 6U rack and the 4x12 cabs that are in both rehearsal spaces (I have a H&K with Greenbacks in the place for the Pop/Rock project, and I borrow a Marshall 4x12 with G12t75s on the metal thing). It's easy to set up and very versatile.
As I am amplifying with a VHT2502 I also get the punch and warmth of a tube rig and get the right feeling in the room.
I do still have the Shiva head, but hardly using it now, it's just too complicated to lug around, organise, set up.
If I had the roadies and techs to care for it, I'd probably play a Herbert or an Ueber for the metal gig and an XTC Classic for the pop/rock gig, but I don't wanna spend the cash or time on optimising FX loops, switching, power supply, cabling etc.
So yeah, maybe it's only 90% as good, but for me it's good enough.
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Yeah but youre going against an axe fx run through a VHT poweramp into a good cab
I'm talking DI'd and more convetional modellers.
I havent passed judgment on the axe yet, because I havent tried one. And I'm not willing to spend the 1.5 grand to try it. The clips are better, but I think I'm starting to hear its particular brand of fakeness in it in blind A/Bs that are kicking about the place. I'm unconvinced, and can only possibly be convinced one way or the other by spending some time with one
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what about this guy's clip here: http://www.hugeracksinc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57360
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If putting a mic inside a sock in a goldfish bowl on the roof is what you have to do, thats what you do.
does this include the fish for extra harmonic richness?
I bet you didn't try revalver 3 did you!
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For me, the biggest problem with modellers, is that you lose all feeling from the amp- you just can't compare the feeling you get from a real amp pushing a real cab- even though the sounds are getting better, there's something fundamental that you're missing with a modeller (imo).
And to agree with MDV, a lot of the fun in recording is working out how to get the best sound from what you've got, and experimenting with different mic/cab/room positions.
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I tried to try revalver but my DAWs wouldnt let me.
Besides, done with it. Modellers includes VSTs.
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:lol:
Considering what I've just been posting elsewhere about being a Luddite over guitars, I feel a bit odd having to query this bit:
"And to agree with MDV, a lot of the fun in recording is working out how to get the best sound from what you've got, and experimenting with different mic/cab/room positions"
That's not what I find at all - I hate dicking about to get the tone (even on a modellor), I want to get a sound that's at least 90-95% there and then I can concentrate on getting the performance down. I'll take any tool that makes the "get me a sound" bit of the process easier :lol:
It's all about the performance for me when I'm recording, I kinda reason that you never get to hear your full guitar sound in a mix anyway. And anyway, the biggest problem tone- and feel- wise, as far as I'm concerned, is that I'm using a drum machine not a real drummer, the fact the guitar tones are fake as well seems a lot less noticable to me :lol:
I know there's a difference, and I suspect there always will be to some extent, but it's not worth the hassle for me, I'm still using my favourite modellor, as recommended by... er... (now who was it? :lol:). It's got some "issues", I can hear them too, can't put a finger on them, but I can live with them...
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Its not one or the other between performance and sound ;) (fwiw the tonelab is still my favourite, but that doesnt mean I think the results it gives are are nearly good as an amp ragging a speaker with decent mic/s infront of it, and FWIW pt2 I plan to try to use it for modular effects and wah later with my PB and see how it sounds, because its effects are very good (and its models might be better driving speakers and mics than DI too, we'll see))
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That's not what I find at all - I hate dicking about to get the tone (even on a modellor), I want to get a sound that's at least 90-95% there and then I can concentrate on getting the performance down. I'll take any tool that makes the "get me a sound" bit of the process easier :lol:
I agree, this is why I use my modeller probably more than a mic and an amp. So much easier to get a half decent tone.
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That's not what I find at all - I hate dicking about to get the tone (even on a modellor), I want to get a sound that's at least 90-95% there and then I can concentrate on getting the performance down. I'll take any tool that makes the "get me a sound" bit of the process easier :lol:
I agree, this is why I use my modeller probably more than a mic and an amp. So much easier to get a half decent tone.
Totally true, if your just working part time and playing in your garage its SOO much more convenient than having to buy all your pedals separately and hope for the best
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That's not what I find at all - I hate dicking about to get the tone (even on a modellor), I want to get a sound that's at least 90-95% there and then I can concentrate on getting the performance down. I'll take any tool that makes the "get me a sound" bit of the process easier :lol:
I agree, this is why I use my modeller probably more than a mic and an amp. So much easier to get a half decent tone.
Totally true, if your just working part time and playing in your garage its SOO much more convenient than having to buy all your pedals separately and hope for the best
Depends on your sonic priorities. I use very very few effects (in 11 years of playing I've just bought my first delay pedal). I want tones, and modellers havent delivered. Some are better than others, no doubt, but every time I've taken the time to mic up an amp its paid off tenfold over modellers.
Frankly for effects, I dunno how its gonna work out, but I plan to use DAWs built in stuff during my next recordings. Then you arent stuck with whatever settings you dialled in to begin with.
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I got my Toneport simply cause my mum wouldn't let me have such a huge amp (head + cab) in the house plus I had my AD30VT on me and as parents always say "One is enough" or "You have one already why do you need/want another one?"
And so I'm selling my AD30VT and have got the Pittbull (which is still at home! ARGH!)
I'm sort of stuck with the Toneport for now but I would definately go for an amp/cab anyday. I like tweaking and being hands on rather than 'mouse on' or what not.
Plus for the cosmetic side of everything, a Pittbull head on a MJW 2x12 cab looks cooler than a UX1 :P
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I don't wanna convert anyone, just bring across what I am going through at the moment. I've been more into amps than guitars in the past, and I was always hunting (yeah it's my name) for that great tone. Actually the list of amps I owned in my >20 years playing is quite long:
Hughes & Kettner ATS Combo
Mesa Caliber 50+
Peavey 5150 (first series)
Rivera Knucklehead 100
Soldano Atomic 16
Engl Screamer
THD Univalve
Bogner Shiva
Orange TT
Diezel Einstein
VHT Pitbull 50/ST
Marshall Vintage Modern
Budda Superdrive 30
Each of them was great, but none of them had more than ONE GREAT sound. They might be channel switchers, but in the end all the amps seem to have one highlight tone, and then some mediocre ones.
Now I have the Axe, played it through the Bogner, a Carvin poweramp and now the VHT2502.
With the Axe FX I feel I have a base where I can tweak far more and don't need new amps to have new sounds. I can go through a guitar rig, or I can go direct, which is giving even more flexibility, as direct you have bigger influence on the sound (let's say the VHT Poweramp and Bogner 4x12 give everything their own flavour).
Who knows, I might be going back to amps, but right now after a few months with the Axe (oh almost 1 year) I still feel I haven't scratched the surface yet. I will be getting a quality coax active monitor (FBT Verve 12MA) next week, and who knows, maybe this will be the way to go - have my own controlled stage monitor which gives me wide spread coverage on stage and for FOH go direct with full control on amps, FX and cabs all at the switch of one button on my controller.
Especially live, you won't get more than a fraction of your amp's sound (unless you're Joe Bonamassa and they take real good care of you), and I believe direct will give me better results than I used to have with my mic'ed rigs in the past (plus I will hear myself better as my sound on stage is not concentrated on 3 square meters in front of the 4x12). Will be playing some festival shows this summer, where I'll be tought right or wrong. Let's see.
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still very keen on sansamp gear this end... its great for the convenience, and I love the attack.. but indeed, something real valves do best!
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i agree with you on the simple, basic fact that real amps sound "truer" than devices designed to emulate them. for obvious metaphisic reasons. You can't find a real pizza outside Naples, just more or less good imitations... so the best emulation for a valve amp driving a cab is a valve amp driving a cab. monsieur de lapalisse would have agreed.
and i agree with you on the subjective satisfactory feeling that just a real amp can give you when you succeed to obtain a tone you really like. YOUR tone. by tweaking a sound that's it, without too many options to reshape it.
i don't completely agree with you on the assumption that a real amp sounds necessairly better than a digital emulation... many bands (messhuggah or cynic anyone?) prefer digital devices for their tone... PODs sound certainly different from tube amps, and someone may prefer those synthetic sounds... it's something similar to the concept of synth music. you can prefer the sound of synth strings to the one of a real string quartet for some arrangement...
and, for recording, i believe that tweaking, EQing and make every possible dirty trick to make a POD or something better (i mean the Axe-FX... i don't like any VST modeler i tried, never tried the Tonelab though) sound as you want is not less satisfactory than finding the right sound positioning a mic in the oesophagus of a dead iguana or something like that... it's exactly like saying that Photoshop is cr@p by definition, and that real photos have to be taken on film and modified in a dark room... Photoshop can't make an idiot look like a photographer, and emulation can't give you a good sound unless you're good at creating it...
of course if you're able to tranlate on "tape" the real sound of your amp, well, you don't need any modeler.
i usually record at night, so for me is simply impossible!
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If I was loaded then for sure, I'd buy each amp I wanted that gave me a specific kind of sound, but for sheer convenience and range of tones, Modellers all the way until I win the lottery. :lol: