Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Doadman on May 11, 2009, 11:29:10 PM
-
I've designed and built my own pedal board and am now stocking it with individual pedals to go with my Ibanez RGT42 and Marshall DSL401. In front of the amp I'm using a Weeping Demon, MXR Super Compressor and Digitech Bad Monkey in that order. All of these pedals work perfectly. In the effects loop I have an EHX Small Clone chorus pedal and this is where my problem lies. As soon as I engage the chorus pedal I lose all my volume and tone. It's like I'm suddenly playing with a wall of cushions in front of the speaker. Any idea what's wrong?
-
EHX's battery is near the end...?(The pedal is directly in the amp's effect loop?)
-
Yes, the pedal is in the effects loop and it's running on mains power, daisy chained to all the other pedals. Everything else seems to work fine, though the chorus is the only one in the loop. The mix control on the amp for effects is all the way up.
-
If the problem only happens when the chorus pedal is in the loop, and not when it is in front of the amp then it will probably be because the EHX isn't liking the signal levels in the loop (which are far higher than in front of the amp).
-
If the problem only happens when the chorus pedal is in the loop, and not when it is in front of the amp then it will probably be because the EHX isn't liking the signal levels in the loop (which are far higher than in front of the amp).
My guess too. Many stompboxes expect an instrument level signal, not line level.
Line 6 DL4 was one too. I thought it was a major design flaw not to add a line level input option for it. EPIC fail.
-Zaned
-
You're perfectly correct in that the pedal works fine in front of the amp. At first I thought it was sucking tone but not volume but I found that if I used a patch cable to connect the 'Send' straight to the 'Return' socket then it was fine. Does this just mean that I can't use the chorus pedal in the effects loop because the Small Clone doesn't like the Line Out power or will I have this problem with all of the pedals in the loop, in which case, why have one? If things like chorus and delay are supposed to go in the loop, wouldn't it hinder the effect by placing it in front of the amp?
-
You're right in thinking that a lot of pedals won't work well in your loop. Ideally, you would need something which has an option of using a line level signal, something like a DD-20 for example, as the signal level in the loop is much higher than before the amp.
To be honest though, the only way of really knowing whether a pedal will work well in your loop will be to try it. FX loops can be odd and rather frustrating things sometimes.
-
It looks like it's a power issue as the loop in a DSL401 is more designed for rack effects. Are there any time based effects pedals that can be bought to suit this application (+4db), particularly Delay, Chorus, Phaser and Flanger? Alternatively, would I be just as well running all my effects up front and bypass the effects loop all together?
-
I always use Chorus/Phasing pedals in front of the amp.It works ok for me.In the loop,i use the racks (Lexicon).I did use a Boss DSD2 in the loop once and it was ok too ;my loop is a parallel one,not a serial.
-
It looks like it's a power issue as the loop in a DSL401 is more designed for rack effects. Are there any time based effects pedals that can be bought to suit this application (+4db), particularly Delay, Chorus, Phaser and Flanger? Alternatively, would I be just as well running all my effects up front and bypass the effects loop all together?
The Boss DD-20 can be switched between line and instrument level. The TC Electronic Nova pedals (Delay and Modulation) can also be calibrated for various input levels. There's probably many others too.
-
This is all getting to be a bit of a pain. If I use the effects loop I have to use rack effects or I compromise the location and put all effects up front. I went with individual pedals instead of multi effects as so many people told me it was far better but I'd have to say that right now a far better option seems to be selling all the individual pedals I've bought and getting an RP1000 instead. Any thoughts?
-
This is all getting to be a bit of a pain. If I use the effects loop I have to use rack effects or I compromise the location and put all effects up front. I went with individual pedals instead of multi effects as so many people told me it was far better but I'd have to say that right now a far better option seems to be selling all the individual pedals I've bought and getting an RP1000 instead. Any thoughts?
Well ................. Just got a GSP1101 myself, yesterday (only a tiny bit more powerful than an RP1000) and I just think it might be going to replace all my pedals ! It sounds great, and is just so damned convenient !
Can't harm to buy an RP1000, mail order, then you'll have a few days to try it out before it would need to go back if you didn't want to keep it (distance selling regulations and all that). All you've got to lose is a few quid postage then.
-
I may well try that before I invest in any more pedals, though interestingly, I posed the same question to Digitech - RP1000 or all the pedals up front. Within minutes they sent a reply that simply said 'Stick to individual pedals'.
It's all so confusing :evil:
-
Individual pedals gives you far more control over what you have, what is the issue with using them up front ? Maybe just change your chorus pedal and then buy ones appropriate to loop or front as you want them.
-
Isn't there an issue with putting time based effects in front of the amp, especially if I'm using preamp gain? Other than that, what on earth do I use for Delay, Chorus, Phaser and Flanger that will work in a loop like mine. All I know of is rack effects or a DD-20. Alternatively, which such effects would certainly work up front? I certainly use the gain channels on my amp if that's relevant.
-
Yup if you are using your amp for distort instead of a pedal that can go after the chorus I believe it dont work well
You probably need something that does this job
http://www.ceriatone.com/Manuals/ceriatone%20klein-ulator%20manual%20072508.pdf
This device buffers the signal to the pedals so they see instrument level then feeds it back at line level, one of these would allow any standard pedals to be placed in the effects loop.
I was surprised when I looked to not find many of these!
-
Isn't there an issue with putting time based effects in front of the amp, especially if I'm using preamp gain? Other than that, what on earth do I use for Delay, Chorus, Phaser and Flanger that will work in a loop like mine. All I know of is rack effects or a DD-20. Alternatively, which such effects would certainly work up front? I certainly use the gain channels on my amp if that's relevant.
If you use pre-amp distortion from your amp, you are absolutley right that one of your options is to get modulation and delay pedals that will work at line level in your loop. It will sound bad having delay especially before distortion.
The dumble-ator (or Ceriatone's version the Kleinulator) is an option to get your FX loop down to instrument level. But I'll bet my life savings that using one that way would introduce a lot of hum/background noise, as the unit would have to boost the signal a lot again before it went back into the amp, to give the amp the right signal strength that it is looking for. You'd have so many gain stages in your whole pre-amp/ loop structure that the background noise would probably be unacceptable.
Just for the record, I bought a Ceriatone Kleinulator once, and found it very noisy. Although I have heard other reports of them being good.
Another option for you, is to replace you amp's gain by a pedal(s). That way, you can have all you pedals in front of the amp (at instrument level), and play into the clean channel of your amp. This works really well if you can find dirt pedals that you really like, and is usually good for low levels of background noise.
Last option is to go the modelling route and do everything in one unit, and then plug into the FX loop return of your amp.
All are potentially good and bad options, depending on your personal tastes and what you choose to get. I've built up great rigs using all of those techniques.
-
I've learned quite a bit through this, it's just a pity that I learned it right after I bought all these pedals and built my own pedal board! The problem appears to be the fact that the effects loop is set for line level power rather than instrument level. I can't fathom why pedal manufacturers don't take account of this when they produce time based effects! This wouldn't be a problem if I restricted myself to the clean channel as they could all then easily go in front of the amp but I also like to use the amps own gain channels. That being the case, it seems I have three main options on how to proceed and I'd be grateful for the thoughts of all you guys who know a lot more than me:
1) Buy time based pedals that WILL work at line level. The question is, what are the options as the only one I know of is the Boss DD-20?
2) Put something like a Ceriatone Kleinulator in the loop to get the power to the right level (is there something similar to this that will do the same thing but is easier and cheaper to get hold of?). My concern with this is that it would introduce a lot of hum/background noise, as the unit would have to boost the signal a lot again before it went back into the amp, to give the amp the right signal strength that it is looking for. I'd have so many gain stages in the whole pre-amp/ loop structure that the background noise would probably be unacceptable.
3) Give up on the whole individual pedal route, sell the lot and buy an RP1000
I'd be very grateful for anyones thoughts and advice.
-
I think I've already given my opinion on most of what you ask, but other options to a DD-20 are the TC Electronics Nova series (delay and Moulation), and the Eventide Timefactor (don't even go there - mega expensive !)
There may well be others.
-
There are amps that allow the loop level to be adjusted so that is another option.
The pedal manufacturers would anser don't use the amps gain channel buy one of our unbelievably amazing distort pedals and use that on your board.
-
I feel a lot more positive about my pedal board now that's for sure as I seem to have at least four possible solutions available to me that are all reasonable.
It would appear that putting all of the effects up front is no great hardship even on the drive channels as a number of experienced musicians have told me they do that with good results. I can only assume that any difference between up front and in the loop is marginal.
As far as the Digitech pedals working in the loop are concerned, I'd better clarify exactly what Digitech said. They were only talking about the Hardwire pedals but they did say that they would work OK; their only concern was that when using a conventional pedal like theirs in a parrallel effects loop, there would always be some dry signal making it through as well as the wet and this would compromise the result. Once again, based what a few people have said to me regarding their Digitech pedals in a DSL401 loop, the problem must again be marginal as they certainly haven't noticed it.
I could also choose to invest in better quality effects as I believe that the TC Electronics Nova Series pedals should work OK on -10db. Expensive certainly but nevertheless, a viable solution.
Finally I could add something into the effects loop to change the power flow into the pedals. I was never too keen on the Ceriatone Kleinulator as a solution because I couldn't find it in this country, didn't fancy the hassle of sending to America for it and then there was the noise issue. However, I have found an alternative in the Ebtech Line Level Shifter that I can buy here in the UK that should work so I have emailed the company for clarification. Here's a link to the details:
http://www.ebtechaudio.com/llsheinf.pdf
The advantage of this one seems to be that it has a hum eliminator built into it.
All in all, a good number of options that will allow me to keep both the homemade pedalboard I put so much effort into building and the amp that, other than the awkward effects loop, I love.
-
The effect loop should buffer the signal so ANY pedal should work in the effect loop. In case of the EHX - I had that clone pedal as well. It sounds really warm, but the bypass on that pedal is just incredibly bad IMO. I got rid of it in the end.
-
I think PMT manchester have some TC electronics on a clearance table of pedals if you are anywhere near there, sorry I can't remember which ones.
-
The effect loop should buffer the signal so ANY pedal should work in the effect loop.
FX loops can differ enormously in their circuit construction and capabilities. There is no such thing as a "standard" FX loop which behaves in a predictable way, in my experience.
-
I've never had an amp with an effects loop. When I was gigging I used to stick a delay/modulation pedal in front of my single channel valve amp that was kicking out my main tone. There was a boost in front of everything for solos, but at that time it was just a little graphic eq pedal, no dirt, that was coming from the preamp.
I used the pedal's delay for:
- crochet or minim delays for solos that needed it (we were a three-piece)
I used the pedal's modulation for:
- ripply chorus on on "clean parts", obtained by turning down the guitar's volume
- thickening up crunch rhythm parts when I wanted it
There's nothing drastically wrong with sticking delay/mod in front of a preamp - depending on what you want it to do... it's all personal taste - what does it sound like? What job does it do for you?
Nowadays, using modellors and having access to "after the event" processing in my recording kit I have choices.
For me personally, at the moment, these are my own "rules of thumb" (all designed to be broken if necessary):
- short slap-back echo, has to be applied after the amp (preferably "speakers" and all - I'm modelling remember), that's where it sounds best to me, just muddies things up without adding to the party if I stick it in front of the preamp.
- long (crochet or more) echo, doesn't make much difference either way once it's in the mix, I do tend to prefer reverb after delay, we perceive that as "more natural sounding", but adding echoes to an already reverbed signal can be useful when you want to be unnatural (or if you need the echo in the mix but don't have a dry signal to work with anymore :roll:)
- ripply chorus sounds (I don't use them much anymore anyway, I lived through the "chorused strat" 80s :lol:) these really only sound effective for me with "cleaner" tones and with careful use of reverb after... and the part really must end up stereo to really get much benefit at all - otherwise it's mud in the mix that isn't really adding value for me. Obviously this has to go after the "amp" for it to be possible.
- chorus/phase/flange to fatten up a guitar tone (not a guitar part) for me personally still has to go in front of the amp, it just sounds like a studio effect otherwise... You've got to be real delicate with the amount/degree of effect otherwise an "over-complicated" signal into the amp's preamp will muddy up pretty damn quick - but sometimes that's what you want anyway :D
Those are my tastes at the moment... someone else's will be entirely different.
I'd say ask yourself what you want these effects to do for you? What do they sound like at the moment in front of the amp? If you go for a multi-effects unit in the FX loop - your "pedal effects" will no longer mess with your preamp - they won't do it in a bad way, but they won't do it in a good way either - you might end up with a more "sterile" sound. But if that's what your ears want, then it's a good thing :D
If an effect gives you something you like, that's great. You don't have to use effects the way everyone else does - you'll just find yourself sounding like everyone else. And as long as you don't start messing up the electricity in a dangerous way - you do not have to use a unit in exactly the way they designed it. Stick fuzz on the vocals, chorus on the drums, it all works!
Look at effects as creative tools where you can't break them - you can put screws in with a hammer if you like the effect it has and can use it :lol:
I hope that helps some. Good luck with sorting it out, you will get there :D
-
There's nothing drastically wrong with sticking delay/mod in front of a preamp - depending on what you want it to do... it's all personal taste - what does it sound like? What job does it do for you?
I agree that it is down to personal taste.
However, you'll probably find that well over 90% of professional recordings in the last 30 years which have used delay on an overdriven/distorted guitar track, use the delay AFTER the distortion. Simply because to "most" people's tastes, it sounds nicer, and more musical.
Professional producers do it like that because "people" like it better.