Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: skay on October 23, 2005, 05:27:44 PM
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What would you define as a HOT pickup? Would anything over 8.0k be considered Hot by P.A.F standards?
The reason I am raising this question is that I'm having trouble keeping my 8.4k Mule bridge pickup from overdriving the preamp on my Vox AC30 (I'm using it in a Gibson Les Paul) and it is sounding less-than-vintage at the moment. Have I bought the wrong type of pickup? Is this too powerful for the P.A.F tones I am striving for?
I like crispy and edgey tones, the origional Burstbuckers did this really well but could sometimes go too far and sound shrill in the upper harmonics. I thought a set of Mules would give me more openess and vintage bite without the ice-pick highs, but it seems i've lost all the characteristics of what I liked about my guitars sound in the first place...
I've already been in contact with Tim regarding my situation, but i'd also like some of your input into this. I have already lowered the entire pickup, then messed around with the individual pole pieces and turned down the gain on my amp etc but still all I'm getting is too much drive that is resulting in a somewhat 'mushy' sound. Anyone else have a similar experience like me?
What am I doing wrong or is having the pickup unwound a little, like I've suggested in an email to Tim, the obvious answer? I've read that origional P.A.F's were fairly low in output and maybe the 8.4 is too powerful for the sounds I am after? I'm confused...
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As far as I know DC resistance and output are completely different aspects to take into consideration. Normally high output P/Us have a high DC reading, but this is not always the case.
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Sounds confusing, but may help me make sense of what's going on...
The situation i'm in is the new Mule pickups drive my preamp more but sound quieter overall when amp settings are at their 'usual' for the Burstbuckers. The amount of breakup is much more but overall volume is nowhere near as loud. I'm not cutting through half as much as when using the Burstbuckers.
How can the Mules be more powerful to drive the amp but then be quieter at the same time?
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What Les Paul is it?? Which AC30 is it? How does it sound with other guitars? If it's naturally bright guitar it could be the guitar colouring the pickups., it could be valves going off in the amp too.
All the Burstbuckers I've played are a touch on the harsh side to my ears, but that's not how I hear the Mules.
I might suggest heading for a Stormy Monday as a solution. :)
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It's a Gibson Historic Les Paul (R7) played through a Handwired Vox AC30 with some Mullard valves scattered around in there. My Rickenbacker and Teles sound very bright and cutting through the amp, the valves are all doing fine, and I use the Les Paul to help me get that 'thick harmonic' overdrive without the ice-pick attack.
The burstbuckers sounded fine on the edge of breakup with a good range overall, even the lower frequences but any higher gain the sound started loosing definition. On some settings, the Burstbuckers could become too bright with the bottom end sounding cloudy and unrefined, but were by no means a 'bad' sounding pickup. I then thought if the generally 'poorly received' Burstbuckers sounded this good, I was hoping for really great things from some handwound pickups.
So far I am having no luck dialling these pickups in. The top end is ok, no shrill overtones, but the middle and bottom end is mushy and unclear when entering overdriven territory.
How do you think Stormy Mondays would suit my set-up?
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I know it can sound like I'm complaining about not getting a sound that I wasn't acheiving in the first place, but the reason for my situation at present is that the Burstbuckers were getting me 85-90% near to the ideal sound I'm after, and instead of helping me get closer (i.e 100%), with these Mules I'd say I'm now only 60% near the sound I want...
The problems I wanted adressed, like taming the high frequences, has been adressed but at the expense of loosing the tightness of the middle and lower frequences of my Burstbuckers (and I'd never of dreamt I'd ever be praising a Gibson humbucker for its bottom end clarity!!!).
The sound of the guitar acoustically is very balanced across the strings, it is very resonant and when played absolutely clean the Mules really shine and bring out everything that is great about the guitars physical properties (i.e acoustics) but when winding up the gain to breaking up levels, the clarity takes a nose dive and the sound is almost compressed and mushy/fizzy in the middle to lower frequences, and the only way to clean them up is to back off the gain, but then I have no overdrive.
I want to like these pickups because the whole handwound aspect really appeals to me, they match my custom shop built guitar and handwired amp, I just never thought I'd have so much of a headache trying to dial them in and get them working for me.
All the promising reviews leads me to believe that I'm possibly using them in the wrong application or just not setting them up to their optimum, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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For me personally any pickup that is too high in output is a big no-no.
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So what would you consider to be 'high output' then? Is my 8.4k pickup 'high' in your opinion?
How do you measure it (i.e define it as high) if DC resistance is not always a true representation of output?
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I would consider anything approaching the 9K mark as hot for a vintage application.
What you are describing is very unusual as I never heard a Mule sounding muddy.
Perhaps something like the Riff Raff with its alnico V magnet and lower out put may help you cut through the mix better.
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I've just been researching what type of magnets are in the Burstbuckers, and apparently the stock BB's in the Historic Les Pauls are alnico 2. Could this be a reason for my sound going AWAY from what I was trying to get closer to? Whatever the characteristics of alnico 2 magnets are, could they be what I was liking about the BB's?
I have deliberatley kept away from using the word 'muddy' as I do not think this is a correct definition to what I'm hearing, It's more of a clarity issue where I lack punch and clarity that was so evident in the BB's, and these Mules do not sound as crispy and classic when playing chords or lead lines. Clean, as I said before, the Mules are wonderful. They are better than my Teles for warm chimey rhythm with just the right mix of everything, It's only in overdriven applications that the aforementioned problem situations rear their heads...
Isn't the Riff Raff higher in output as a general rule? The preamp being driven too-hard too-soon is also another issue I'm not liking at the moment either. My scope for playing clean has been radically compromised. I get to 25% on the gain and I'm breaking up already.
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So what would you consider to be 'high output' then? Is my 8.4k pickup 'high' in your opinion?
How do you measure it (i.e define it as high) if DC resistance is not always a true representation of output?
output is measured in milivolts. DC resistance is not a true indication of tone and certainly not of output. Take this as an example:
DiMarzio HS3 is very low output pickup ( rated 93 ) but check its DC reading: a mighty 23.72 !!!!!!
Compare it to a DiMarzio Class of '55 ( a vintage replica of an old Strat P/U ). This one has an output of 110 and a Dc resistance of 5.75
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Strange. I have Crawlers. They're very high output but I've never experienced anything like you have.
Mostly AII is more muddy than AIV. Maybe AV would be better for your aplication. And maybe a less hotter wind.
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A2 is weaker than the rest of the alnicos, and I have found it to be the one most prone to mush! Having said that, in a really low DC pickup it can sound great - like in the Stormy Monday.
I've played quite a few Mule loaded Les Pauls, and not heard what your saying, this is most odd....I have played the Vox handwired, it struck me as not being a classic AC30 as it has a fair bit more gain, but still a good amp so I doubt that's the problem. What's the valve in the first gain stage on the Vox? You could try a lower gain valve here to open the amp up a bit.
Have you played around with the pickup height and screw height - I had a bit of mush from a VHII in a PRS, but adjusting the height sorted it out. Handwound pickups are very fickle about height relative to strings, you need to find the sweetspot.
I hope we can get this sorted....
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BTW, Mullard preamp valves if worn out can sound a bit mushy. How old are they? That might have someting to do with it.... ( 30 year old valves simply won't sound right even when they'll still function )
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I have messed around with the pickup height, balancing out the highs and lows, then testing overdrive/clean levels with the pickup close/far away from the strings, and after reading Dan Erlewine's book I even tried to adjust the pole pieces on the pickips (just a half turn here and there) but still I cannot get to a point where I'm happy.
I usually run my Vox with the master flat out using a Hotplate so i can dial in as much/little gain as I want, but this still didn't help the situation, so I went the old-school route of using the amp in it's intended way, cutting the master volume, still no joy.
If my sound was mushy and lacked power before the change I wouldn't be here supposidly running these pickups down (which i hope I'm not) I'm trying to discover the reasons why they're not working for me as opposed to just stating some unhelpful childish insult as on many other forums :wink: .
It's just that I HAD a GOOD sound, swapped in the Mules for a GREAT sound, and came out the other side here, all lost and confused... :? I really want a handwound pickup to work, the whole lifetime aging ethos really appeals to me and I want to keep a pickup long enough for it to mellow and merge into one with the guitar. The quality of workmanship on these pickups is truley awe-inspiring and will deliver the goods for a very long time and could easily outlive me!
It may be a really sad statement, and I'm wincing even typing it, but could the answer be to re-wind these pickups as clones of my origional BB's? (shoot me now! :) ) I'm figuring, if I liked the BB's before, then maybe getting real close to their properties (magnet type and/or DC resistance etc) with the improved Bareknuckle workmanship and quality of parts, this could lead to a possible solution?
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Oh, just realised I didn't answer the 'valve' question. I have EI elites in the preamp section for rehearsal and gigs ( I find them to be very chimey and Telefunken-like in their vibe), I like to save the Mullard for recordings and special occaisions. I keep the Mullard GZ34 in there as I find that helps with the 'sagging' and overall quality of break-up.
I have tried other guitars through the Vox and they sound fine so 'Old' valves etc are not the reason, It would have been so much easier if they were!
I have a Fender Twin, Laney Gh100l and Vox AC15TBX and the Les Paul sounds unfocused through all of these amps when overdriven, so I can count out the amp as being a prime factor.
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Hi Steve,
just got your mail and also picked up on this thread.I'm not 100% convinced this is a Mule problem as they're closer to a PAF than just about anything you can buy, B Bs in particular!
BBs do have AII but the BBPros also have AVs which can be brighter. Now as for mush, like HJM rightly says, AII is the king of mush..........I use AIV Mules in an original '70 Goldtop in the Ozzy tribute I do, obviously mush wouldn't really do in this situation :D and as the Mule clip in the demo room along with all the other guys Mule demos abley demonstrate, they're not mush monsters, far from it, they're really defined right down into the bass - clean or overdriven.
So what we need to do is get these back, let me check them again myself in one of my LPs to make sure we're all singing from the same hymn book and then proceed from there.
A brighter PAF tone would be Riff Raff with AVs or Stormy Mondays even.
I expect that the BBs you have are all sub DC8K and AII hence the slightly scooped mid and edgey highs.Into an amp eq'ed for this, ie with more bottom to roll out the highs ,the more powerful Mules will force the amp into break up alot quicker especially as you're running the master flat out.
This doesn't explain the neck tone though as the Mule neck is as open as I can wind a humbucker neck...........funnily enough the email after yours was a customer called Terry who was on a quest for the ultimate clarity from a neck humbucker and having tried all the Burstbuckers, SDs etc went for a Stormy Monday and found what he thought was unattainable-clarity in a LP neck slot!The Stormy Neck is only mariginally lower in DC than a Mule and they both have the same wire and same AIV magnet.
Whatever happens I'll get you sorted Steve so don't worry and you can always give me a call anytime if you want to go through the options. :D
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One thing we've all missed - the wiring on the guitar, You won't believe what a poor solder joint will do to guitar tone. Try a rewire, possibly even new pots too, it often really transforms a guitar!
Oh - I wasn't criticising your gear - just wanted to get rid of all external possibilities first! :P
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I'm coming in a little late here, but I was just playing my Les Paul with Riff Raff and AIV Stormy Monday and I think I have the sound you are after! I have a Les Paul with a Mule neck as well, and it is very clear but drives a bit more than the Stormy Monday.
What strings are you using? If you are trying different strings, they could also be the culprits.
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Cheers guys for all the helpful replies!
I'm not the greatest in the world with a soldering iron, but the job I did on my pickups was a good clean join. The pots used on the post 2003 Historics are CTS so I wasn't planning on 'upgrading' them, unless anuone else has experience of these pots and I could infact do better?
The tone stack on the Vox AC30 is very interactive and adding more of one frequency cuts another, so maybe my BB's were being compensated for by the amp, and it's only when I have a set of 'clear' pickups in there I'm hearing the real story. Vox amps are known for their strong upper mids, so this could explain what I'm hearing, the scooped mids were filled in by the Vox with the BB's, but with a 'normal' mid on the Mule the mids were too high and there is no 'mid' dial on a Vox!!!
I've heard that real P.A.F's are harder to work with and take a alittle bit more to get the best out of them, but that still doesn't change the fact that I do not like what I'm achieving sound-wise.
Tim has offered to test them for me, I can install the BB's back in and re-evaluate. If the sound is still 'mushy' and lacks definition then I'm really in trouble, but if 'my sound' is back again then I atleast have something to work from.
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Well, if the guitar sounds mushy after you've re-installed the BB's, it will be safe to say it's a wiring problem or a broken pot.
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Well a broken pot would be the best reason I could hope for! I will have to wait till next sunday at band practice to hear my guitar through my amp again though...
The suggestion of a Riff Raff sounds intertesting, I read last night that they are alnico 2 magnets in those, so that could get me back closer to the sound I liked. When I'm reading through the specs of Riff Raffs, Stormy Mondays or Mules it starts getting confusing. They all have options to change the magnet type so when I hear a suggestion of a particular pickup it is difficult to work out what type of pickup is being spoken about.
I was reading the reviews on harmony central and the very first review of the 'Stormy Monday' struck me as very promising... The guy stated his pickup was alnico 2 with a DC of 7.2k and he commented on it being around the same output as a stock P.A.F he has on another Les Paul. He was dubious that a pickup with only DC 7.2K would be powerful enough but was rewarded with the most pleasing tone apparently. Could this be what I'm looking for? The alnico 2 magnet to calm the mids and the low DC to tame the front end driving of my amp?
I was thinking about my Mules last night and I guess I didn't really mess around with the amps eq enough. I used it for 2 band rehearsals and at home through a GT5 effects processor. I thought the BB's were P.A.F clones and so were the Mules, so I wasn't expecting to have to radically change the way I set up my amp. It took me a good 4 or 5 weeks to 'dial-in' my Les Paul after using the Vox with my Rickenbacker, so maybe a bit of extra work eq-ing may have helped to reduce this clarity issue aswell?
Tim sounds like he knows his onions, so I'm pretty confident that he will come up with the perfect solution of what pickup is ideal and what I need to do, and to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if I was part of the problem :lol:
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A common misconception with PAFs is to confuse them or the term with generic humbuckers. A true PAF is the humbucker Gibson made from '57 until their patent was granted in early '60....these are PAFs.From then on through the '60s the humbuckers actually had a patent no. on the back and are refered to as such(the build is quite different too).
Real PAFs varied hugely in both tone and output.Anything from DC7.2K through to DC9K and Alnico II,III or IV magnets(ALnico V wasn't used until Gibson got the patent).Although not widely known about ,Alnico IV PAFs seem to have the best tone whereas Alnico II and III aren't so desireable.
How do we know about ALnicoIV?Having original magnets analysed and also from Gibson's own ordering inventories which clearly show Alnico IV being specifically ordered and used.
What I've tried to do when recreating this early tone is provide the best from the DC range hence the Stormy Monday in the lower DC range, The Mule in the mid range and Riff Raff(now AV)for the crossover to patent no. era.
All feature plain enamel wire and offset coils.......the only 'tweak' is we scatterwind ours simply because it opens the highs out even more.
Guitar construction varies alot so no single pickup will ever guarantee the best 'do all' tone however one of these three should hit the mark in most aplications.There's no such thing as a bad pickup just the wrong one for the job in hand and that's where we come in, hopefully pairing you and your guitar up with the right pickups. :D
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Hi, the new Riff Raff is Alnico V. My Stormy Monday is Alnico IV. This combination gives a very Peter Green sound with both pickups on. The Alnico IV is a bit like the II but more musical - it is a bit sweeter sounding.
The Riff Raff is a little bright, but I think that helps cut through at a gig. The Stormy Monday is the old Paul Kossoff mellow PAF sound, and can give almost a Strat bell tone at times.
I really love this combination, but guitars are funny. What suits one might not suit another, even thought they are the same make and style. Wood does vary a lot and really alter the response. I got these as a set from Tim, but I had already put an Emerald and Mule set on this guitar. I actually really liked that set on it too, but wanted to try another set to see how they would sound. The Emerald/Mule set are on my Goldtop and work great on there. I am going to try one more set on this Les Paul because I always wanted to hear the Black Dog. I will put the Riff Raff/Stormy Monday into my 335 for that Alvin Lee/Clapton tone.