Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: hunter on June 08, 2009, 08:53:12 PM
-
Now I wanted to really know it, you may officially call me insane.
Luckily recording direct is quick, so this whole thing was done in 20 minutes apart from dialing in the sounds before 8)
Soo I dialed in some similar patches here,
-all using the same cab model and
-all boosted by a tube screamer model, gain=0, tone=10, volume=10,
-similar gain, EQ and other settings,
-slight playing differences cannot be avoided as I didn't reamp them.
Here we go(PRS McCarty with RebelYells used):
1. Peavey 5150: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/5150.mp3
2. Bogner Ueberschall: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/Bogner_Ueber.mp3
3. Custom Audio CAE3: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/CAE3.mp3
4. Diezel VH4: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/Diezel.mp3
5. Engl Powerball: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/Engl.mp3
6. Fryette/VHT Deliverance: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/Fryette.mp3
7. Recto New: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/Recto_New.mp3
8. Recto Orange: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/Recto_Orange.mp3
9. Soldano SLO100: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/Soldano.mp3
Watcha think? Most/least favourites?
EDIT:
First thanks for all the feedback, it really helps me tweaking better!
Some people were saying that it's not right, mids bad, too plastic etc.
Sooo, I reworked 2 patches, different cabs, different settings, and would like to again invite for some feedback, good bad or destructive, I am happy about any remarks.
Reworked SLO: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/slo_reworked.mp3
Reworked 5150: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/5150_reworked.mp3
New approach Uebrschall: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/ueber_newapproach.mp3
-
Err, they all sound the same to me! As if the same recording has been EQ'd differently in a mix? :?
-
Err, they all sound the same to me! As if the same recording has been EQ'd differently in a mix? :?
Yeah i deliberately dialed them in in similar ways with same cab etc.
If you leave away the tube screamer and dial in the amps on neutral settings they're much more different.
Still I think there are big differences between e.g. the SLO and the VHT etc.
Depends also on what you listen to them for sure.
-
I guess so.....
-
Yeah... they're all basically the same. I'm not sure I'd be bothered about the differences between them.
Not really into the sound either tbh, but that's probably more my preference for less gain and scoopiness than anything else. Sorry to be negative! If I were to choose one I think it'd be the CAE3.
-
They do sound similar, that's true, but that's because you are focussing down to the sound you are really looking for.
On it's own, I like the Powerball patch the best for rhythm. WHichever patch you choose, you might have to tweak the mids to use it in a band setting.
To be honest, I don't really like any of them for a lead tone. Which isn't really surprising, as a good rhythm tone requires different characteristics to a good lead tone.
Of the tones that you have there, I prefer the Recto new for leads. Although all the tones are too harsh, and not "soft" enough for me fro lead. A hi gain rhythm tone requires punishing tightness, clarity and attack. For me, I'm looking for a lot more mids, less treble and a softer attack on a lead tone. Lead playing on a good rhythm tone sounds very harsh to me.
-
They do sound similar, that's true, but that's because you are focussing down to the sound you are really looking for.
On it's own, I like the Powerball patch the best for rhythm. WHichever patch you choose, you might have to tweak the mids to use it in a band setting.
To be honest, I don't really like any of them for a lead tone. Which isn't really surprising, as a good rhythm tone requires different characteristics to a good lead tone.
Of the tones that you have there, I prefer the Recto new for leads. Although all the tones are too harsh, and not "soft" enough for me fro lead. A hi gain rhythm tone requires punishing tightness, clarity and attack. For me, I'm looking for a lot more mids, less treble and a softer attack on a lead tone. Lead playing on a good rhythm tone sounds very harsh to me.
Yeah, I have special taste for leads, I like them to be equal to my rhythm tones with just some delay, like em sharp :O)
You say "tweak the mids", what do you mean by this, more mids, less mids or a different mid peak?
Probably a lot comes from the tube screamer and cabs used - things change drastically with a different cab or different boost pedal (or even lowering the locut frequency of the TS which is by default at 680Hz).
-
You say "tweak the mids", what do you mean by this, more mids, less mids or a different mid peak?
You certainly won't need less mids.
I just find that sometimes I work a tone out on my own, and think it's going to sound great. Then all of a sudden, when I use it with the band, it needs more mids to cut through. I find it a bit unpredictable to know when that's going to happen though - maybe it's because I've got cloth ears.
You, no doubt, have a superb ear and I'm sure this would never happen to you. :wink:
-
You, no doubt, have a superb ear and I'm sure this would never happen to you. :wink:
Dude, totally, never ever! :lol:
-
Just getting over the flu ... I look forward to hearing these clips soon!!
-
They're all so similar I can barely offer an opinion. None of them jump out to me as a great tone though I'm afraid. It's all very Line 6.
-
THANKS!
First thanks for all the feedback, it really helps me tweaking better - this unit has such endless tones, many bad ones, many good ones!
Some people were saying that it's not right, mids bad, too plastic etc.
Sooo, I reworked 2 patches, different cabs, different settings, and would like to again invite for some feedback, good bad or destructive, I am happy about ANY remarks.
Reworked SLO: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/slo_reworked.mp3
Reworked 5150: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/5150_reworked.mp3
-
Those ones sound a bit better; the mids are definitely a lot nicer, but the clips still sound like a modeller to me... The delay/reverb is too false, and the sound is too 'hi-fi'. My ears just don't tell me that it feels like a real amp.
Don't get me wrong, I think that the Axe seems like a fun tool and would be GREAT for recording with; probably gaining the best bang for the buck on the market today and also providing the easiest way to get great sounds with the least recording skill, but the technology still hasn't convinced me that it can replace a real amp with a nice mic or a few nice mics in front of it. (and I don't want it to!)
In the end it's a great sounding modeller and that's what it sounds like. Not an amp.
I think the best possible use for it would be at live venues. Guitarists could show up without hoarding heavy amps about, dial in a great sound through the P.A. and get on with playing! And being live, you wouldn't need to worry so much about feedback, shitety microphones, placement, and nobody is likely to notice you're using a modeller.
-
Your new clips sound slightly less "polished" and rather more like a close mic'ed amp, which is good if that's what you are looking for !
For me, I prefer the SLO tone to the 5150.
What are you actually intending to use these patches for Hunter ? Live band use ? If so, FRFR or amp/cab ?Recording ?
I'm assuming that we are hearing the direct recorded tone. But that will actually sound very different to the tone you would get out of your cab(s), I'll bet.
For those commenting about the clips all sounding like a modeller, I suspect that they are either listening with their eyes (ie. it can't sound good because it's a modeller), or are not actually experienced at recording amps and hearing what a dry, close mic'ed recording sounds like.
It is impossible to capture the experience of sitting in front of an amp/cab when you record it. it will be similar, but different.
For me, you're getting closer and closer Hunter. I'd want a touch more bottom end in those last clips though. :D
-
Your new clips sound slightly less "polished" and rather more like a close mic'ed amp, which is good if that's what you are looking for !
For me, I prefer the SLO tone to the 5150.
What are you actually intending to use these patches for Hunter ? Live band use ? If so, FRFR or amp/cab ?Recording ?
I'm assuming that we are hearing the direct recorded tone. But that will actually sound very different to the tone you would get out of your cab(s), I'll bet.
For those commenting about the clips all sounding like a modeller, I suspect that they are either listening with their eyes (ie. it can't sound good because it's a modeller), or are not actually experienced at recording amps and hearing what a dry, close mic'ed recording sounds like.
It is impossible to capture the experience of sitting in front of an amp/cab when you record it. it will be similar, but different.
For me, you're getting closer and closer Hunter. I'd want a touch more bottom end in those last clips though. :D
Thanks, yeah bottom end is a bit thin, but it helps in context with a bass, keyboards and another guitar I guess, will see Monday in rehearsal.
The intention is to get sounds that I use FRFR in a live situation. I won't be using the poweramp/guitarcab, but rather running through a FBT Verve12MA fullrange monitor - which is like my big balls guitar combo at the moment. It really gives that 4x12 thump while offering enough neutral response to be able to use different sounding cab IRs for different tones. It has coax design so doesn't offer many of the disadvantages of a "normal" 12"/2 monitor, and it has a quite equal spread of 120° which is much more than any rig I played before.
I have done 2 rehearsals with it and it was great, incl. compliments from the band members and wondering faces when they saw the size of the box as opposed to the amount of noise it makes :O)
My aim is to get rid of big rigs and rather have a small, very versatile, consistent package. Like this I can play the same setup with the metal band as with the cover band, get convincing clean, crunch, rock and metal sounds incl. the individual matching cab and even run acoustic and electric through the same rig (it being FRFR).
Biggest trouble I have is dialing in the metal part of it - but that's always been my weakness, I think since I heard "Holy Diver" for the first time, I wanted certain sounds and never got them, so for about 22 years...arghhh.
Well I think the 5150/reworked can be a good starting point to tweak from. Used a different cab and mic mix for that and that makes all the difference I suppose.
-
For those commenting about the clips all sounding like a modeller, I suspect that they are either listening with their eyes (ie. it can't sound good because it's a modeller), or are not actually experienced at recording amps and hearing what a dry, close mic'ed recording sounds like.
How impressively condescending :lol:
-
For those commenting about the clips all sounding like a modeller, I suspect that they are either listening with their eyes (ie. it can't sound good because it's a modeller), or are not actually experienced at recording amps and hearing what a dry, close mic'ed recording sounds like.
How impressively condescending :lol:
Lol. yes, I tried my best !!!
-
Thanks, yeah bottom end is a bit thin, but it helps in context with a bass, keyboards and another guitar I guess, will see Monday in rehearsal.
The intention is to get sounds that I use FRFR in a live situation. I won't be using the poweramp/guitarcab, but rather running through a FBT Verve12MA fullrange monitor - which is like my big balls guitar combo at the moment. It really gives that 4x12 thump while offering enough neutral response to be able to use different sounding cab IRs for different tones. It has coax design so doesn't offer many of the disadvantages of a "normal" 12"/2 monitor, and it has a quite equal spread of 120° which is much more than any rig I played before.
I have done 2 rehearsals with it and it was great, incl. compliments from the band members and wondering faces when they saw the size of the box as opposed to the amount of noise it makes :O)
My aim is to get rid of big rigs and rather have a small, very versatile, consistent package. Like this I can play the same setup with the metal band as with the cover band, get convincing clean, crunch, rock and metal sounds incl. the individual matching cab and even run acoustic and electric through the same rig (it being FRFR).
Biggest trouble I have is dialing in the metal part of it - but that's always been my weakness, I think since I heard "Holy Diver" for the first time, I wanted certain sounds and never got them, so for about 22 years...arghhh.
Well I think the 5150/reworked can be a good starting point to tweak from. Used a different cab and mic mix for that and that makes all the difference I suppose.
I've definately been looking at the 12ma myself recently, as I have returned to the modeller route of tone-generation, despite mine being a relative "toy" compared to the Axe..
I am getting sounds I really like with the band. In fact last night's rehearsal was very good for "tone". My sounds were cutting through amazingly. So much so that, initially, some of the other band members were moaning at me for being too loud, even though I was significantly quieter that I usually am at rehearsals. From where I was standing, the tones sat awesomely in the mix, but on their own sounded pretty rough really, with little bottom end and little top end. It constantly amazes me how the electric guitar takes up such a small frequency range in a band mix. If you can find that range and get the frequency balance right, just in that small range, then all will be good.
Also, with guitar speakers, (espec greenbacks) I always find that the frequency range they put out is greatly affected by volume, with the higher the volume giving a more restricted frequency range.
ANyway, back to the 12ma .... I am liking my "guitar cab with greenbacks" rig well, but the typical laser beam tone effect is there, and it only sounds great on a very small range of angles. I'd love to have a cab which firstly gives a much wider spread of sound (without being open-backed), and secondly, which puts out approximately the same frequencies whatever the volume.
Is the 12ma really all some folks claim it to be ? Have you tried the Axe with other reasonable quality active monitors ? IS there a huge difference ?
Realistically, I could just about afford one, if I sold both my amps, and both my cabs. So it would be a big commitment, but it is do-able. I'm very nervous about doing that though. I did try my GSP through a Samson 612M active monitor, and I didn't like it greatly. My problem is not at home (or even at church) levels but when rehearsing or gigging with the band.
Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.
.....sorry for the rambling post. :oops:
-
I've definately been looking at the 12ma myself recently, as I have returned to the modeller route of tone-generation, despite mine being a relative "toy" compared to the Axe..
I don't think the Digitech is a toy. The Axe has more possibilities to tweak stuff, but that doesn't automatically mean that better things come out at the back. I would say it's still 70% player, 20% the ear and ability to dial in a good tone, 10% gear if you ask me. And even if the Digitech is a little bit lower spec/quality D/A etc, it makes just a marginal difference on the end result.
ANyway, back to the 12ma .... I am liking my "guitar cab with greenbacks" rig well, but the typical laser beam tone effect is there, and it only sounds great on a very small range of angles. I'd love to have a cab which firstly gives a much wider spread of sound (without being open-backed), and secondly, which puts out approximately the same frequencies whatever the volume.
Is the 12ma really all some folks claim it to be ? Have you tried the Axe with other reasonable quality active monitors ? IS there a huge difference ?
Well, the 12MA definitely does sound different cranked than at low volume. I don't think there is such a thing as equal frequency response at any volume and in any room. In my case, I would say there is kind of a loudness when it's down VERY low, then the bass dominates a bit around TV volume, then it has an upper mid spike coming in when turning it up. But you have to keep in mind that the monitor on the floor blasts directly at you, so these differences are very audible. And the 12MA is a stage monitor, so it's optimised for a certain volume for sure. It's nothing that couldn't be tweaked easily though (also it hass B/D tone pots at the back).
I would say if you plug a modeler into a guitar amp, it's still quite easy to get good tone, but going FRFR it becomes much more difficult, as the number of variables increases and therefore the range of possible tones is growing exponentially. You need good cab sims and good short/subtle reverbs to be able to simulate the real deal.
Once you found your settings though, I can guarantee that the FBT has the goods to put out a tone that is almost indisinguishable from a pumping 4x12. I have achieved this for the crunch to rock part of my tones but still searching for metal (confident I will get there). But don't expect it to be an easy ride.
The only other monitors I tried were dB Technologies 10-2 and it was dull and wrong. But I relied on the feedback from my fellow Axe FX forumites who were using upper range JBLs, QSCs and the FBT and unanimously preferred the latter.
In case you want to get one or two, make sure to check the market. Price differences are huge. They go for 1,100$ in US and 850GBP in UK. I bought mine in Italy (FBT is an italian brand) for 650€ (now 695,- http://shop.musikwalter.it/index.aspx?ACT=21&ART=1097). But someone found it cheaper, for 615€ (http://www.hellomusicstore.com/).
-
By the way, yesterday I discovered a cool patch someone else did for the Ueber.
Sounds completely different than my other ones, but I dig it a lot, so I did another go at the initial clips.
What do you think of this one?
New Ueberschall: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/ueber_newapproach.mp3
-
By the way, yesterday I discovered a cool patch someone else did for the Ueber.
Sounds completely different than my other ones, but I dig it a lot, so I did another go at the initial clips.
What do you think of this one?
New Ueberschall: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/ueber_newapproach.mp3
Pretty good. The prominent mids frequencies are very different to the last 5150 patch of yours. If you could somehow get the mids somewhere inbetween the two, that would suit my tastes the best. I think either would cut through OK with a band though.
For me, the main difference between all these tones is actually EQ. The general tonality of the distortion in the different patches seems very similar to me.
-
Had to come back to this one, as I installed today the EMG P81/P60 set I had still lying around in my Gibbo LP Special.
I never liked them in my rock times, but thought, if it's good for Hetfield, it can't be so wrong for me.
Did a take with the EMG loaded axe and an Ueber patch - retrospectively it has too much gain, but I like the fat chunk they make. A bit sterile, but I think they will cut well with the band, if I reduce the Axe input a bit.
Maybe Vintage pickups aren't for this after all and I should get some of the "mayhem BKPs" methinks ...
Here's the take: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/ueber_emgs.mp3
-
Had to come back to this one, as I installed today the EMG P81/P60 set I had still lying around in my Gibbo LP Special.
I never liked them in my rock times, but thought, if it's good for Hetfield, it can't be so wrong for me.
Did a take with the EMG loaded axe and an Ueber patch - retrospectively it has too much gain, but I like the fat chunk they make. A bit sterile, but I think they will cut well with the band, if I reduce the Axe input a bit.
Maybe Vintage pickups aren't for this after all and I should get some of the "mayhem BKPs" methinks ...
Here's the take: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/ueber_emgs.mp3
Personally I prefer the previous Ueber clip with your lower output pickups. THere's more dynamics and attack - v. important for rhythm work methinks.
-
Had to come back to this one, as I installed today the EMG P81/P60 set I had still lying around in my Gibbo LP Special.
I never liked them in my rock times, but thought, if it's good for Hetfield, it can't be so wrong for me.
Did a take with the EMG loaded axe and an Ueber patch - retrospectively it has too much gain, but I like the fat chunk they make. A bit sterile, but I think they will cut well with the band, if I reduce the Axe input a bit.
Maybe Vintage pickups aren't for this after all and I should get some of the "mayhem BKPs" methinks ...
Here's the take: http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/ueber_emgs.mp3
Personally I prefer the previous Ueber clip with your lower output pickups. THere's more dynamics and attack - v. important for rhythm work methinks.
Thanks a lot, your feedback is really helping.
Now I think I reached a tone which I am fully happy with, tweaked the other one more for the EMGs, what I have now is a real fierce and tight rhythm tone. Lead not quite there yet. Here are two leads, one is with the rhythm tone, second is with a Fulldrive in a middy setting engaged up front, makes it quite fuzzy but sounds real big on my monitors.
What about this one (which I will be happy to use on the upcoming gigs I think): http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/ueber_emg_tweaked.mp3
-
I think we've got to the point where we differ in taste as to our preferred tones. It would seem that I like a little less distortion than you for rhythm tones, and a lot more mids (and a bit less treble in lead tones). Not better or worse, just different.
That most recent tone is a good tone, and has enough mids to cut though with the band. I suspect that the next step really has to be actually trying it with the band and seeing how it fits in.
-
Out of the clips i would say this one.
http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/ueber_newapproach.mp3 (http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/temp/shootout/ueber_newapproach.mp3)
Apart from the fact that i think your searching for the best way to make the perfect 'microwaved' pizza, i would say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyKKl0aqwAc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyKKl0aqwAc&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAlsMAwFAmA&feature=channel_page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAlsMAwFAmA&feature=channel_page)
Or somewhere in between would be ok 8)